What 30-06 ammo for bear encounters

[twofifty]

We had an idiot criminal vandal chopping down fence posts at the range that way. Last year someone shot 22LR at one of our sea-cans.

We're also tired of the broken glass (best time to get that is in the spring, when meltage concentrates the shards into the last snowpack remnants and is easy to shovel into a bucket).

The BS ends this Spring, with the installation of high rez streaming video surveillance. RCMP have agreed to lay mischief charges when the time comes.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by twofifty

You are the first who mentions actually doing some type of training with the bear defence method that you rely on.

Edmhunter, does your training include actually firing the shotgun (kudos on having a real stock btw) into a target (mobile or fixed) and does it involve you firing while on the move, say sidestepping or backpedalling?

I realize none of the above is like the real thing, but at least it teaches a guy to draw and quickly acquire a sight picture and to fire at that very instant.

Plus there's the benefit of having drawn and shot at a moving target (like an IPSC swinger or drop-turner) and/or having drawn and shot while on the move.

And while being clocked with a shot timer so you can measure how your performance improves through your training regime. And how it degrades when we don't maintain our training.

Good on ya.

Have you ever hear of Woodcock and have you ever hunted them?

[twofifty]

Yes and no.

But if they behave like Ruffies did when I hunted them in thick eastern cover,
you have found a great training strategy - provided your shotgun is holstered as you go along.

Tell me more.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Yes and no.

But if they behave like Ruffies did when I hunted them in thick eastern cover,
you have found a great training strategy - provided your shotgun is holstered as you go along.

Tell me more.

No I do not do any type of training for such a situation, however I grew up hunting woodcock in Quebec, they are the size of a Robin, way smaller then a Ruffed Grouse and hence faster, see attached pictures. I killed hundreds of them over the years with our bird dogs which made a very quick and instinctive shooter.

Typically they launch themselves at take off at lighting speeds and your average shot is usually trough trees and foliage.

Knowing how proficient I am with a shotgun and how quickly I can fire a shot off and given the fact that I have already killed a black bear that charged me while bow hunting for them with my shotgun, I have no reservation or doubt that put back in that situation I will survive and any bear charging me when I am armed with my defender is in a world of, well you know.

If I loose and the bear wins, he or she will not feel like he or she won at all! lol

Come to think of it, I miss hunting the little rascals!

[twofifty]

quote: "any bear charging me when I am armed with my defender is in a world of, well you know."

Of that I now have no doubt.

becassinne? You must be a Township laddy.

[edmhunter]

Oui Monsieur! But I am not French I am of Irish, German, Scot decent, a real mutt! lol

We used to hunt many townships like Drummondville, Hudson, Rigaud etc.

[twofifty]

As am I, plus the extra 'je ne sais quoi' that your ancestors failed to add to the stew. Regardless, you are forgiven my son.

[edmhunter]

May the Lord be with you as well padre, especially if you are attacked by a grizz!

[DaleJ]

Had to go back a page to makes sure I replied to the bear protection thread. Pump action 760 Rem should be fast firing enough, with suitable close range sights might get the job done. If it was my protection I would replace the 30-06 barrel with a 35 Whelen and load the heaviest round nose bullet to mid-range velocity. Make sure the rifle feeds, fires, extracts and ejects reliably. Keep it as clean as possible and always battle ready. Then go and buy bear spray. The only way that rifle will be better than spray is in your hands and ready to fire.

I spent few years in the "Chinchaga area" north west of Manning. Riding quads and Argos checking gas gathering systems. Seen a lot of grizzlies but never had a problem. Machine noise is an early warning system for bears and any grizzly sighting was his ass heading into the trees. But seeing them disappear into the trees when you have to proceed past leaves an uneasy feeling. You have no idea where they are and what they're up to. When that happened I would take a different return route. In those days I carried a Rem 870 Marine, 18" cylinder barrel, full synthetic stock, Held seven 3" in the tube. Never had to use it.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

Had to go back a page to makes sure I replied to the bear protection thread.
.....

Sorry Dale, the old country got the better of us.

If not for Edmhunter being so well prepared and practiced, I'd be reporting him
for going off topic and wasting bandwidth.

Seriously though, pump 760 in 35 Whelen sounds like a good combo.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

Have you ever hear of Woodcock and have you ever hunted them?

Heard of'em......hell yea,a couple decades of gunnin' eastern timberdoodles and ruffies over Springers and Labs is a humbling education in wingshooting.......learns ya how to shoot quick.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

No I do not do any type of training for such a situation, however I grew up hunting woodcock in Quebec, they are the size of a Robin, way smaller then a Ruffed Grouse and hence faster, see attached pictures. I killed hundreds of them over the years with our bird dogs which made a very quick and instinctive shooter.

Typically they launch themselves at take off at lighting speeds and your average shot is usually trough trees and foliage.

Can I get an AMEN BROTHER!!!
Damn,yer making me homesick.......September flights,a box+ of shotshells for the afternoon,and an enthusiastic Springer.....siggghhhh...good times.

[sikwhiskey]

Originally Posted by grinr

Oh,and fwiw,7600 is NOT tube fed,it's a 4rd DM.

Im well aware that the Rem 7600 isn't a tube fed mag, was simply stating for those that happened on this post…. with Tube fed mags to use RN bullets, never heard of a rnd going of from recoil in a tube fed Mag and pointed bullets, but stranger things have happened, just a suggestion. And I agree with the rest of your post.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by Flatlandliver

Been posted and argued before but what the heck.

This is from U.S Fish and Game

Bear Spray vs. Bullets
Which offers better protection?
At first glance, this question may seem like a no-brainer. After all, aren’t guns made to kill, while pepper spray (so-called “bear spray,” when it comes in big cans) does not? Unlike an attack by a human assailant, who may be able to use your own weapon against you, that safety/survival argument for using pepper spray doesn’t apply to a human-bear encounter... or does it?
When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact, experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury or death of the human or the bear. While firearms can kill a bear, can a bullet kill quickly enough -- and can the shooter be accurate enough -- to prevent a dangerous, even fatal, attack?
The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used.
Awareness of bear behavior is the key to mitigating potential danger. Detecting signs of a bear and avoiding interaction, or understanding defensive bear behaviors, like bluff charges, are the best ways of escaping injury. The Service supports the pepper spray policy of the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee, which states that bear spray is not a substitute for following proper bear avoidance safety techniques, and that bear spray should be used as a deterrent only in an aggressive or attacking confrontation with a bear.
Like seatbelts, bear spray saves lives. But just as seatbelts don’t make driving off a bridge safe, bear spray is not a shield against deliberately seeking out or attracting a grizzly bear. No deterrent is 100% effective, but compared to all others, including firearms, proper use of bear spray has proven to be the best method for fending off threatening and attacking bears, and for preventing injury to the person and animal involved.

Read you post, about the bold part: Who cares about the bear???

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

Read you post, about the bold part: Who cares about the bear???

I agree, however, nobody wants to kill a sow, leaving 3 little Cubs to starve to death if you don't have to. But at the same time, it's always gonna be me first, bears second when your life's possibly on the line.

[edmhunter]

My position is simple: There are thousands of Grizz in North America and only one of me, so I will not play Patty Cake, or bluff charge or a game of Chicken with a proven man eater.

[xxclaro]

Depending where I'm bow hunting, I will sometimes carry a short shotgun. If so, its loaded with Challenger slugs, as I can't see buckshot having any advantages at real close range. Often I just carry spray, but if I have a long walk out in the dark or I know there are grizz close by, I'll carry the gun in hand till I get where I'm going.

[Coiloil37]

I usually pack spray while I'm bowhunting. If I'm packing a rifle I take a 760 carbine loaded with 220 grain partitions. I packed a shotgun for years before I did some reading about it's lack of ability for deep penetratation. Then I bought a 45/70 guide gun and loaded 405 grain hard cast but it didn't really get any use. As I can't stand owning stuff I don't use I eventually sold it and pulled out grandpas old 760 with its 18" barrel and peep sight and decided it would work.

For the guys who have killed animals with a slug, especially a charging bear, how was the penetration? I don't mean a broadside whitetail I mean will it penetrate end to end and break everything in its path or is it truly lacking compared to a big bore rifle like a 45/70?

[nelsonob1]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

I usually pack spray while I'm bowhunting. If I'm packing a rifle I take a 760 carbine loaded with 220 grain partitions. I packed a shotgun for years before I did some reading about it's lack of ability for deep penetratation. Then I bought a 45/70 guide gun and loaded 405 grain hard cast but it didn't really get any use. As I can't stand owning stuff I don't use I eventually sold it and pulled out grandpas old 760 with its 18" barrel and peep sight and decided it would work.

For the guys who have killed animals with a slug, especially a charging bear, how was the penetration? I don't mean a broadside whitetail I mean will it penetrate end to end and break everything in its path or is it truly lacking compared to a big bore rifle like a 45/70?

great question.

[58thecat]

Question was 30-06 so I guess the heaviest bullet that is available...200 gr if memory serves me right.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Question was 30-06 so I guess the heaviest bullet that is available...200 gr if memory serves me right.

I believe that 220 is the heaviest grain for 30-06. All I ever shot out of mine was 165 grain and would hate to be the target! Packs quite the punch, I have dropped moose in their tracks with them, on more then one occasion.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

I believe that 220 is the heaviest grain for 30-06. All I ever shot out of mine was 165 grain and would hate to be the target! Packs quite the punch, I have dropped moose in their tracks with them, on more then one occasion.

Yeah I use to load 165 gr Hornady's as a go to all around bullet for a buddy and he was pleased with their performance but if this was a Grizz bullet 220 gr would be my choice. Would even be save to say I would beef up to a 45/70 if I had the choice.

[windsurf5522]

If a bear or cougar (in my case) comes out from know where charging, a rifle at close range 20yards or less in my opinion is useless you have about a second to react and do something. Unless you are carrying your gun ready to fire (not on your shoulder) and can shoot from the hip and hit your target very very quickly your done for. You dont have time to bring the scope up to your eyes and require the target, plus your not going to see it anyway with any more than 3x power (remember it is running at you). When bow hunting or any hunting in thick bush areas (this dosent apply in open areas) I have in my hands (the hunting weapon is on my shoulder or back) a short 12ga shotgun with 000buck for the first round (this should stop them or slow them down) then loaded with slugs. This setup works. You still have to practice with a shotgun to be able to aquire a target and shoot rapidly 000buck and slugs very quickly. If hunting alone in thick bush areas as I do, in bear and cougar areas (which is nearly everywhere that has thick cover) think about the dangers, im glad I did. happy hunting.

[philthygeezer]

I've carried a 12 gauge with Foster slugs most of the time when out in bear country. Much interwebs research has indicated that buckshot is pretty useless, and Foster slugs don't penetrate very well. Even the Brennekes are said to be a bit on the marginal side. People in Alaska who guide for bears seem to carry rifles as backup for clients and don't generally have a high opinion of shotguns.

Still, I suppose a shotgun would be fine in black bear country. For grizzlies I've rethought the issue and would now take a .30-06, .338 Win Mag, or .375 H&H magnum with good sights. I've configured a 24" Ruger 77 MkII in .338 Win Mag to replace the shotgun/Marlin .45-70 and feel it would do a better job all around. A Winchester 70 would be just as good or better. I feel more confident about the rifle bullets' abilities to penetrate. The .30-06 would be 200 grain bonded or partition bullets. .338 or .375 would be same kind of bullets but 250 or 270 grains.

The caveat is to be as quick and effortless with the rifle as with a shotgun. Perhaps the 7600 is the answer to that question. However, people hunt dangerous game with CRF bolt rifles all the time. I think lots of practice with one's favourite hunting rifle is a great idea. Use the same gun in a smaller caliber or lighter load until it's second nature. Then switch up and practice with the heavier cartridges.

This is all a secondary resort to a good can of pepper spray.

Here's my current idea of a bear defense rifle in .338 Win Mag. Should be rugged and tough as nails, very reliable, and easy to spot if I leave it in a corner somewhere while working.

[alfoldivandor]

Originally Posted by Mammoth

What is the best cartridge/bullet construction/bullet weight to load in a 30-06 being carried strictly for defence purposes ... let's take a grizzly as the discussion point. So it will be very short range. Do some cartridges perform better at very short ranges. Cartridge cost is not an issue ... best short range performance is the objective. Thank you. (Rifle is a Remington 7600 pump.)

Any cartridge any bullet you can shoot in the spine or brain ........ other wise the bear going to get you .......

[edmhunter]

Crazy looking rifle man, looks like a jigsaw puzzle neat!

[philthygeezer]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

Crazy looking rifle man, looks like a jigsaw puzzle neat!

Thanks! I wanted something 'safety' looking and easy to spot if I had it laid down somewhere. Orange is taken for 'non-lethal' and this will show a bit less dirt.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by philthygeezer

Thanks! I wanted something 'safety' looking and easy to spot if I had it laid down somewhere. Orange is taken for 'non-lethal' and this will show a bit less dirt.

"Non lethal?", I would not want to be the target. Killer for sure!!! lol

[philthygeezer]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

"Non lethal?", I would not want to be the target. Killer for sure!!! lol

Sorry! I meant that solid orange means 'non-lethal' in some cases, so I threw a few more colours on the stock to avoid confusion.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by philthygeezer

Sorry! I meant that solid orange means 'non-lethal' in some cases, so I threw a few more colours on the stock to avoid confusion.

Job well done!