Antlerless Moose Draws?????

[husky7mm]

[QUOTE=MAC;2902773]The numbers just don't support your statement or your general assumptions that 999 make or will make draw times longer.

Going on your premise that point hoarders apply every year, using the 2014 draw stats.

Antlered Moose -22978 applicants-
applicants with 8 and more points 2195
That is less than 10% of total applicants


Antlered Mule deer - 21441 Applicants-
Applicants with 8 or more points 948
That is less than 5% of total applicants

Trophy Antelope - 21455 Applicants-
Applicants with 8 or more points 4352
That is less than 21%

These are just some I worked the numbers for, but I don't see the front of the line being so full as to be detrimental to those starting to apply.


No where I look in the draw summary is there a disproportionate number of priority points higher up.
The norm for almost all draw summary's the highest number of applicants held 0 priority and went down by every year to the lowest number of applicants which was the highest priority.

We can also rule out every applicant applying in the same year, this is just not a real possibility. But for arguments sake if 50% applied without 999
for moose that would involve 1100 of 12000 tags not a big hit to the lower priority applicants.

I may be looking at this wrong, but I simply cannot see what you are saying
as being the reason for increased wait times.
There are some abuses and we should focus on correcting these.
But our draw system is one of the best and we should work with it instead of tearing it down.

MAC[/QUOTE ]

How many moose, mule deer and antelope tags were issued ? Your missing some vital info if you want to understand the trend.

[husky7mm]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

What I hear is some don't want to wait for their turn, and they don't realize the 999 folks are letting them "butt in" to the line.

I guess you can't make everyone happy even with a fair system...

Again there are way more important factors affecting wait times than 999 folks.

LC

You would be wrong on your assumptions, I understand the system, it appears fair on the surface. General season has enough going on to keep me happy anyways. Will try and explain in a different way yet agian when I have the time to do it justice.

[MAC]

[
How many moose, mule deer and antelope tags were issued ? Your missing some vital info if you want to understand the trend.[/QUOTE]

I have the info, please show me the trend.

Moose Just over 12000 its 12798 I believe I did look it up
Antelope 741 tags
Mule antlered 10894 tags

MAC

[scalerman]

I lived in BC and am now living in AB. The priority points system is far superior. I lived in an area where there was an LEH hunt for elk. The odds were regularly 40:1. Under the priority points system it would take 40 years to get drawn, that I understand, but when a buddy of mine got drawn 3 years out of 4 for that hunt it kind of ****ed me off. I understand that it is the luck of the draw but with that system there really was almost no hope of getting drawn. It is frustrating that it may takes years to get drawn for the species you want in the zone you want but you will get drawn at some point. If the wait is too long in the area in which you want to hunt then maybe look at hunting in another area. Hunting is a privilege not a right. I think we need to remember that a little more often.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

In the short term yes but in the long term no. We are reaching a point where tonnes for people have stored point for so long they are the upping the anti on the many of the draws. Soon there will be more folks with a boat load of points then there will be draws to put in. A priorty 6-8 will be not much better than a p1 today.
When they printed money in iirc Germany many years back , shortly after you needed a wheelbarrow of money to by groceries.
If someone could have been drawn 3 times and didnt or couldnt make it work I have to question how serious they where about the tag in the first place.

In a lottery system you put your best foot forward everytime you apply, you have the same chance as the person beside you and if you get drawn you seize the opportunity and make it happen. Thats how adventures start. If you know you cant make it before the draws are due you dont apply. Simple.
The way its going right now my kids will have little to no chance of pulling any decent draw.

No, if it is purely a lottery I would apply anyways and try and make the hunt or eat the tag, but I would still apply even if the cost of the draw or tag was higher. Most of the people I know would do the same.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

You would be wrong on your assumptions, I understand the system, it appears fair on the surface. General season has enough going on to keep me happy anyways. Will try and explain in a different way yet agian when I have the time to do it justice.

Appears fair? How is it not fair?

Not assuming you feel somehow slighted by 999 folks trying to figure out why.

LC

[st99]

Originally Posted by scalerman

I lived in BC and am now living in AB. The priority points system is far superior. I lived in an area where there was an LEH hunt for elk. The odds were regularly 40:1. Under the priority points system it would take 40 years to get drawn, that I understand, but when a buddy of mine got drawn 3 years out of 4 for that hunt it kind of ****ed me off. I understand that it is the luck of the draw but with that system there really was almost no hope of getting drawn. It is frustrating that it may takes years to get drawn for the species you want in the zone you want but you will get drawn at some point. If the wait is too long in the area in which you want to hunt then maybe look at hunting in another area. Hunting is a privilege not a right. I think we need to remember that a little more often.

x2, with my luck, I would never get a tag

[Suka]

Originally Posted by st99

x2, with my luck, I would never get a tag

X3. Our points system is fair and everyone get's their turn, in their turn.

I don't buy lottery tickets as I consider them a voluntary tax on the stupid.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So if every eligible person applied to draw every tag they could, every year, instead of using the 999 option, do you thing the priorities required for each tag would be reduced?

Of course not... Can also say that the 999'ing does not make hunters more likely to get their tag any sooner either.
The fact is hunter numbers are up and draw times are increasing and will keep increasing.
That in itself does not bother me. I can live with it. It would be greedy to think otherwise.
If the trend continues, its going to take many years to get draws which in the past took 3 or 4 years.
That's how I'm seeing it...but maybe I'm wrong, maybe hunter numbers will decrease down the road.
Where the draw times will end up in our lifetimes is still an unknown, but if it gets to be that you need a P20 to draw a tag then I ask you whats better.
The priority system or the lottery??

[Sparx]

How about my situation now, P11 on Antlered Mule deer. I am literally sitting on this tag to find a nice buck before I pull it.

Having so much priority I don't want to waste it on a down year or in an area I have no experience in.
Sure when I'm ready it will be nice, but essentially I've passed up lets say 2 or 3 separate decent opportunities to hunt in respectable zones for simply one chance.

I there for as well reduced the number of applications in those zones by 999 instead of applying. On top of that, I potentially reduced the number of harvested animals to help sustain and improve the heard health.

I don't see how 999 hurts the system in anyway unless your the guy getting bumped out of opportunities like Suffield when they come about because you were lazy and didn't plan properly to build up your points instead of pulling a tag as soon as you could every single year you could.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Sparx

I potentially reduced the number of harvested animals to help sustain and improve the heard health.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by Sparx

How about my situation now, P11 on Antlered Mule deer. I am literally sitting on this tag to find a nice buck before I pull it.

Having so much priority I don't want to waste it on a down year or in an area I have no experience in.
Sure when I'm ready it will be nice, but essentially I've passed up lets say 2 or 3 separate decent opportunities to hunt in respectable zones for simply one chance.

I there for as well reduced the number of applications in those zones by 999 instead of applying. On top of that, I potentially reduced the number of harvested animals to help sustain and improve the heard health.

I don't see how 999 hurts the system in anyway unless your the guy getting bumped out of opportunities like Suffield when they come about because you were lazy and didn't plan properly to build up your points instead of pulling a tag as soon as you could every single year you could.

By postponing yourself from drawing does nothing for ''reducing the number of applications'' or ''potentially reducing the number of harvested animals'' .

The tag you passed up is taken by somebody else.

Plain and simple ..

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by chuck

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it?

Can't argue more animals left out in the field isn't a good thing for the health of the heard as long as they aren't over populated. Pretty straight forward really.

Simply put, even if predators are bad, there's one more deer to keep them fed. Even if bucks aren't as detrimental to the heard as say a 3 yr old female by example. If it keeps the predators off her back, it's helping.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

By postponing yourself from drawing does nothing for ''reducing the number of applications'' or ''potentially reducing the number of harvested animals'' .

The tag you passed up is taken by somebody else.

Plain and simple ..

Agree, never really looked at it from that aspect, my bad.

[Sparx]

I think this is when you could throw variables in the mix which hunter success rates calculate.

Cause if I know I could shoot an animal every year as I have it figured out in my area, doesn't necessarily mean the next guy filling my spot does either.

That's kinda what I was assuming in the mix, but didn't take into account another with the same experience or better replacing my shoes in the field.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by score

For some reason I wasn't drawn for my Antlerless moose draw this year. I was getting stoked with a priority of 6 in a zone crawling with moose.

Not sure why. I've always been drawn at 4 and 5 before there. Once with a priority of 3.

Anyone else have a similar experience this year?

As it is now the 999 works for me.

I do not like it but it serves what I require.

From 1979 on all general tags have decreased.

From 1980 on all general moose have decreased.

From 2013 all mule tags have decreased.


The 999 works for me, I do not like it, but Alberta is not the same as it was in the past.

Fire.


I will not present statistics just what I have experienced.

The resources we have belong to the residences of Alberta.


When the administrators realise this and restrict the others maybe a change can occur.

[LKILR]

For all you whiners that never got your moose tag I can say have some patients and stand in line like gentleman. I got my first ever moose tag this year and I waited for 17 years. Don't hear me complaining. Just be happy to live in a province with so many hunting opportunities.

[husky7mm]

Originally Posted by LKILR

For all you whiners that never got your moose tag I can say have some patients and stand in line like gentleman. I got my first ever moose tag this year and I waited for 17 years. Don't hear me complaining. Just be happy to live in a province with so many hunting opportunities.

17 years for 1 moose tag is not lots of opportunity. If its was lottery you may have drawn it a 4 times, or maybe never. 17 years for 1 tag is almost never anyways IMO

[husky7mm]

Originally Posted by MAC

[
How many moose, mule deer and antelope tags were issued ? Your missing some vital info if you want to understand the trend.

I have the info, please show me the trend.

Moose Just over 12000 its 12798 I believe I did look it up
Antelope 741 tags
Mule antlered 10894 tags

MAC[/QUOTE]

The thing about treads is you have to look follow it for years to understand it. Note the antelope draw, over 2000 people with at least a p8 and 749 tags available.
A p4-6 is actually lots for moose and muledeer but its trending to not be.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

17 years for 1 moose tag is not lots of opportunity. If its was lottery you may have drawn it a 4 times, or maybe never. 17 years for 1 tag is almost never anyways IMO

What wmu's is this?

[husky7mm]

Originally Posted by norwestalta

What wmu's is this?

Ask the member I quoted. Its likely a good unit or maybe not alot of moose but likely where the memeber really wanted to hunt moose, perhaps in his own neck of the woods, anyways 17 years and one moose doesnt scratch the itch for this guy.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

Ask the member I quoted. Its likely a good unit or maybe not alot of moose but likely where the memeber really wanted to hunt moose, perhaps in his own neck of the woods, anyways 17 years and one moose doesnt scratch the itch for this guy.

Haha I quoted the wrong guy. 17 years is a long time. Sorry about that husky.

[MAC]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

The thing about treads is you have to look follow it for years to understand it. Note the antelope draw, over 2000 people with at least a p8 and 749 tags available.
A p4-6 is actually lots for moose and muledeer but its trending to not be.

Trend - { General course / prevailing tendency }
So I would agree with you on everything you have said in your post that I just quoted. Trends can be slow and should be observed before coming to any solid conclusion.
I question what trend you see as you have stated your opinion several times that the 999 option is responsible for increased wait times and should be eliminated and go back to lottery style draws.
The Trophy Antelope example is a good one to reinforce the point made by several that increased wait times are the result of supply and demand.
21000 applicants with 741 tags is going to drive up wait times and 999 has nothing to do with it.

Your reply to LKILR regarding the wait times for a lottery draw is accurate
with one small omission. The statement should have included " depending on the wmu you apply in " because it is true that had he applied in a northern zone he could have been drawn several times, but had he applied for say 402 or 304 he likely never would have been drawn. There is always a chance but that is the luck of the draw isn't it.
As you stated a P4-P6 is plenty for many WMU's but some such as 402, 400 are 17 and 16 year waits and 304, 308 are 10-12 year waits.
Why are they so long, popularity for many reasons, location adjacent to large citys
,trophy quality and access all contribute. The waits are due to low supply and high demand. The 999 option has nothing to do with increased wait times.

I have not done the math but I think the odds for lottery versus priority are probably pretty close. I am old enough to remember the old lottery style Alberta had and was lucky enough to draw Antelope twice in a 3 year period while my uncle that was salivating to hunt Antelope applied for 5 years before drawing his first.
The priority system with the 999 option allows many to plan their hunts and put plans into effect resulting in a more enjoyable experience with reduced wasted tags by hunters that would not be able to go if they did not plan properly.

MAC