Against Seperation from Canada

[Arachnodisiac]

This sounds more libertarian than conservative.

Curious, what do you think would happen to reproductive choice and marriage freedom if Alberta separated?

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Conservative values and individual rights

Taxation of 50%+ is plain larceny and as we continue that number will continue to rise further out of control. We will be taxed even more and represented even less. What that’s saying about, “taxation without representation”?

Small efficient governments that spend conservatively. None and I mean none of our governments can balance a cheque book. The continual growth of government like a cancer will have every citizen a government employee soon. Would that be an employee of the government, or the state?

Personal choices. If I felt the need to donate money to say a Haiti hurricane relief fund that’s great. How is it a governments job to make that donation without asking me then tax it from me in a form of taxation.

Critical thought. Where government runs on the principal of sober second thought and does what’s best for the populace. Not self interest and the SJW flavour of the week.

Less intrusion of the law. Fewer laws and people’s freedom to choose good decisions. I never wore a bicycle helmet as a kid and I turned out ok. Illegal now. I can’t turn left at a green light almost anywhere in Edmonton anymore. You need a flashing arrow to turn left anywhere in Edmonton. There are laws that decide what colour your house can be. Hate to stick out in that sea of beige.

Less regulation on just about everything. When more city inspectors come to see my shed has vented soffit, even though soffit isn’t a requirement on my shed; then inspect the building of the henday there are problems. Why does my quad have to be registered annually when I can’t use it on a road?

There are many more. I moved to Alberta a long time ago as it was thebonly conservative refuge left in Canada. After Ralph retired this province has been run by liberals and socialists. Please liberals and socialists, let us have Alberta. You have all the rest of Canada. If you don’t like conservative Alberta you should just LEAVE. And leave me my one refuge in this country where I can feel politically accepted and comfortable.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

This sounds more libertarian than conservative.

Curious, what do you think would happen to reproductive choice and marriage freedom if Alberta separated?

Yes there are libertarian beliefs there as well. But still beliefs that founded this province. Helping neighbours socially is welcome too of course.

Do you really think if Alberta separated either of those issues would really come to the forefront of issues? Lets say for a minute that we separate and the real issues at hand are solved and these do come to the table.

Do you really believe there are enough people today (or years from now) that care about gay marriage? I think the vast majority of people don't care about who people marry, we're just sick of BS equality issues shoved down our throats. Gay people are equal to straight people today; the war is over. Move on. The vast majority of people I would say have no problem with gay people, I think most people are sick of the 5873 different minority groups fighting over who exactly is MORE equal than the others.

As for abortion, you're right there is a large majority of Albertans that felt that if we talk Canada into separating then we can ban abortions. You found us out. Didn't think you woulda seen this coming.

Also, as this is in a thread about separation it could be construed as I meant separation; but my original quote was not so much about separation as it is to just leave Alberta as a conservative (lets call it politically right) refuge. I was asking the socialists and liberals to leave instead of me having to leave Canada as another poster requested.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Yes there are libertarian beliefs there as well. But still beliefs that founded this province. Helping neighbours socially is welcome too of course.

Do you really think if Alberta separated either of those issues would really come to the forefront of issues? Lets say for a minute that we separate and the real issues at hand are solved and these do come to the table.

I do think they would. I joined the UCP because I liked one of the candidates for my riding so I was invited to join a bunch of conference calls where people could ask Kenny questions in the lead up to the provincial election. Things like the school GSAs came up EVRY SINGLE TIME. Watch the video of McIvor begging people at the first UCP AGM to drop the GSA issue from the top of the platform. They can’t help themselves.

Even though my preferred candidate managed to get the nomination at the last minute come the election I couldn’t do it. I still like him but the corrupt practices the party leadership indulged in are inconsistent with my ethics and the party rank and file behave like troglodytes when Kenny blows his little whistle. I was so hopeful at first.... this has been a significant disappointment.

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Also, as this is in a thread about separation it could be construed as I meant separation; but my original quote was not so much about separation as it is to just leave Alberta as a conservative (lets call it politically right) refuge. I was asking the socialists and liberals to leave instead of me having to leave Canada as another poster requested.

My family settled here before it was Alberta and your idea that we should be some sort of conservative utopia bothers me. I don’t really care how the government of the day aligns itself as long as it provides pragmatic, effective leadership. Wildly polarized team first politics undermines that and directly enables the kind of useless, corrupt posturing the current bunch seems to think is good governance. Is it really this crewor the NDP? If this is the best we have how do you build out a national government? The idea that the province could stand as its own nation in this situation is hilarious.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

I do think they would. I joined the UCP because I liked one of the candidates for my riding so I was invited to join a bunch of conference calls where people could ask Kenny questions in the lead up to the provincial election. Things like the school GSAs came up EVRY SINGLE TIME. Watch the video of McIvor begging people at the first UCP AGM to drop the GSA issue from the top of the platform. They can’t help themselves.

Even though my preferred candidate managed to get the nomination at the last minute come the election I couldn’t do it. I still like him but the corrupt practices the party leadership indulged in are inconsistent with my ethics and the party rank and file behave like troglodytes when Kenny blows his little whistle. I was so hopeful at first.... this has been a significant disappointment.



My family settled here before it was Alberta and your idea that we should be some sort of conservative utopia bothers me. I don’t really care how the government of the day aligns itself as long as it provides pragmatic, effective leadership. Wildly polarized team first politics undermines that and directly enables the kind of useless, corrupt posturing the current bunch seems to think is good governance. Is it really this crewor the NDP? If this is the best we have how do you build out a national government? The idea that the province could stand as its own nation in this situation is hilarious.

can you dumb that down a bit? Lol

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

I do think they would. I joined the UCP because I liked one of the candidates for my riding so I was invited to join a bunch of conference calls where people could ask Kenny questions in the lead up to the provincial election. Things like the school GSAs came up EVRY SINGLE TIME. Watch the video of McIvor begging people at the first UCP AGM to drop the GSA issue from the top of the platform. They can’t help themselves.

Even though my preferred candidate managed to get the nomination at the last minute come the election I couldn’t do it. I still like him but the corrupt practices the party leadership indulged in are inconsistent with my ethics and the party rank and file behave like troglodytes when Kenny blows his little whistle. I was so hopeful at first.... this has been a significant disappointment.



My family settled here before it was Alberta and your idea that we should be some sort of conservative utopia bothers me. I don’t really care how the government of the day aligns itself as long as it provides pragmatic, effective leadership. Wildly polarized team first politics undermines that and directly enables the kind of useless, corrupt posturing the current bunch seems to think is good governance. Is it really this crewor the NDP? If this is the best we have how do you build out a national government? The idea that the province could stand as its own nation in this situation is hilarious.

You realize that a GSA has zero to do with gay marriage rights don’t you? The idea of the GSA is one that I don’t necessarily agree with either. It’s not that I am against some form of aid to kids that need help; not at all. It’s the way the GSA’a are structured now I believe need changes for sure. The road to hell is paved with what again? My biggest problem with it is that parents should be aware that their child has joined. If there is an actual threat of physical violence there are many, many other government depts that rectify that already. Regardless, even if the UCP delegates want to discuss it, it sounds like the party already is done with it and wanted nothing to do with it; and I think the average albertans stopped caring about 15 years ago anyways. There’s no way marriage rights change.

I don’t think we should be a conservative utopia. Most of Canada was built on Christian conservative values with social community values added. Over time Alberta was the last bastion of these ideas and even now that is disappearing. Hard individual work broke the ground. You helped your neighbour in need and you spent what you had not what you might make; let alone a percentage beyond your best possible income. People used to mind their own business and you were free to do as you please.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

You realize that a GSA has zero to do with gay marriage rights don’t you?

I don't think it's likely the gentleman I heard railing on about the gays indoctrinating kids is ambivalent about same sex marriage.

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I don’t think we should be a conservative utopia. Most of Canada was built on Christian conservative values with social community values added. Over time Alberta was the last bastion of these ideas and even now that is disappearing. Hard individual work broke the ground. You helped your neighbour in need and you spent what you had not what you might make; let alone a percentage beyond your best possible income. People used to mind their own business and you were free to do as you please.

Hate to break it to you but you're describing Happy Days not Alberta.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by midgetwaiter

I don't think it's likely the gentleman I heard railing on about the gays indoctrinating kids is ambivalent about same sex marriage.



Hate to break it to you but you're describing Happy Days not Alberta.

No sir. That’s not happy days. That’s what your 4 generations of family participated in building. If the nutcase was railing against a GSA it has nothing to do with marriage rights. As for indoctrination are you saying that it’s not happening? Are you sure it’s not possible that it’s happening? How can you guarantee what he says is wrong?

[Arachnodisiac]

Comparatively, ALL Canadian provinces when founded were conservative. Indigenous people couldn’t vote or leave the reserves, women couldn’t vote or pursue higher education readily, healthcare was a spotty spit show, and so forth.

When would you dial the clock back to? What would you keep?

As for the fight being over, typically once social rights are legalized, there’s a pushback that makes life harder for a time. (Think of the civil rights movement.) just because something is legal on paper doesn’t mean everything is suddenly equal, unfortunately because the social space that legality technically creates still needs to be fought for tooth and nail in every day life.

And yeah - as an Albertan woman, I’d fight for my reproductive rights as hard as I’d fight to keep my guns.

Your Alberta isn’t everyone’s - and you aren’t any more entitled to determine what a valid Alberta is any more than any other resident.

The next decade will sure be interesting, at any rate.

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Yes there are libertarian beliefs there as well. But still beliefs that founded this province. Helping neighbours socially is welcome too of course.

Do you really think if Alberta separated either of those issues would really come to the forefront of issues? Lets say for a minute that we separate and the real issues at hand are solved and these do come to the table.

Do you really believe there are enough people today (or years from now) that care about gay marriage? I think the vast majority of people don't care about who people marry, we're just sick of BS equality issues shoved down our throats. Gay people are equal to straight people today; the war is over. Move on. The vast majority of people I would say have no problem with gay people, I think most people are sick of the 5873 different minority groups fighting over who exactly is MORE equal than the others.

As for abortion, you're right there is a large majority of Albertans that felt that if we talk Canada into separating then we can ban abortions. You found us out. Didn't think you woulda seen this coming.

Also, as this is in a thread about separation it could be construed as I meant separation; but my original quote was not so much about separation as it is to just leave Alberta as a conservative (lets call it politically right) refuge. I was asking the socialists and liberals to leave instead of me having to leave Canada as another poster requested.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

Comparatively, ALL Canadian provinces when founded were conservative. Indigenous people couldn’t vote or leave the reserves, women couldn’t vote or pursue higher education readily, healthcare was a spotty spit show, and so forth.

When would you dial the clock back to? What would you keep?

As for the fight being over, typically once social rights are legalized, there’s a pushback that makes life harder for a time. (Think of the civil rights movement.) just because something is legal on paper doesn’t mean everything is suddenly equal, unfortunately because the social space that legality technically creates still needs to be fought for tooth and nail in every day life.

And yeah - as an Albertan woman, I’d fight for my reproductive rights as hard as I’d fight to keep my guns.

Your Alberta isn’t everyone’s - and you aren’t any more entitled to determine what a valid Alberta is any more than any other resident.

The next decade will sure be interesting, at any rate.

Nope I don’t have more say than anyone else; you are right. But all the liberals, socialists, and wanna be conservatives have all of Canada as their political will. Well I think SK has actually moved more right in the last decade or so. Regardless, I’m just asking for one spot in the country to allow us to have our values reflected.

As for fighting after rights is nonsense. Once it’s on paper, you have all the rights as anyone else and the tools are there to enforce them. Continuous fighting to be MORE equal is what alienates causes from the average person.

Reproductive rights aren’t going anywhere. Anyone that bears that drum is fear mongering and absurd. The “Evil Harper” is way more conservative than Kenney or most politicians nowadays and he easily could’ve pushed it through. The fact of the matter is it’s a non issue. For every nut case that wants to change it, there are 75 people that want nothing to do with changes and another 19 carrying on about nothing; because it’s such a small voice of opposition. Maybe 5 people support the nit job for their own personal reasons yet don’t actively seek out the change. Your continuous fight for something that faces nonperil is wasted effort.

I am the most conservative person I know. I’m one of the most conservative person you will likely converse with. I have exactly zero interest in debating abortions or gay rights. The libertarian in me says it’s your construct of laws that caused these issues in the first place. When laws controll every aspect of your life, that’s when they interfere with your life.

As for when to turn the clock back to; I’ll take anytime. Realistically though, I’ll take the Ralph Klein years when gay marriage, and abortions were legal, women could vote and anything else you felt threatened by was a non-issue. I’d be happy with that. And apparently so could you.

[Arachnodisiac]

I am not worried about reproductive rights in Canada. I would be, however, if separation occurred. Of course, I live in southern Alberta, and it’s a bit of a different world down here. I would hope the urban centres would be able to water the fundamentalism down, but it would really depend on so many things when the new new country was founded.

And yes, Klein was premier for one year of marriage equality - because it was federal law. Klein and the conservative government at the time absolutely opposed it. So it would be ridiculous to think that the possibility of a stand-alone Alberta would protect the same rights and freedoms that Canada does.

How many Alberta conservatives that live here now do you think would actively vote to ensure both of these rights remained protected? How do you envision an Alberta charter would be developed? In consultation? Democratically? By elected officials? By referendum?

I don’t have any confidence that these would be protected post separation.

And of course, there are plenty of other issues too, but these two are forefront in my mind given the current climate of politics in the south here.

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Nope I don’t have more say than anyone else; you are right. But all the liberals, socialists, and wanna be conservatives have all of Canada as their political will. Well I think SK has actually moved more right in the last decade or so. Regardless, I’m just asking for one spot in the country to allow us to have our values reflected.

As for fighting after rights is nonsense. Once it’s on paper, you have all the rights as anyone else and the tools are there to enforce them. Continuous fighting to be MORE equal is what alienates causes from the average person.

Reproductive rights aren’t going anywhere. Anyone that bears that drum is fear mongering and absurd. The “Evil Harper” is way more conservative than Kenney or most politicians nowadays and he easily could’ve pushed it through. The fact of the matter is it’s a non issue. For every nut case that wants to change it, there are 75 people that want nothing to do with changes and another 19 carrying on about nothing; because it’s such a small voice of opposition. Maybe 5 people support the nit job for their own personal reasons yet don’t actively seek out the change. Your continuous fight for something that faces nonperil is wasted effort.

I am the most conservative person I know. I’m one of the most conservative person you will likely converse with. I have exactly zero interest in debating abortions or gay rights. The libertarian in me says it’s your construct of laws that caused these issues in the first place. When laws controll every aspect of your life, that’s when they interfere with your life.

As for when to turn the clock back to; I’ll take anytime. Realistically though, I’ll take the Ralph Klein years when gay marriage, and abortions were legal, women could vote and anything else you felt threatened by was a non-issue. I’d be happy with that. And apparently so could you.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

I am not worried about reproductive rights in Canada. I would be, however, if separation occurred. Of course, I live in southern Alberta, and it’s a bit of a different world down here. I would hope the urban centres would be able to water the fundamentalism down, but it would really depend on so many things when the new new country was founded.

And yes, Klein was premier for one year of marriage equality - because it was federal law. Klein and the conservative government at the time absolutely opposed it. So it would be ridiculous to think that the possibility of a stand-alone Alberta would protect the same rights and freedoms that Canada does.

How many Alberta conservatives that live here now do you think would actively vote to ensure both of these rights remained protected? How do you envision an Alberta charter would be developed? In consultation? Democratically? By elected officials? By referendum?

I don’t have any confidence that these would be protected post separation.

And of course, there are plenty of other issues too, but these two are forefront in my mind given the current climate of politics in the south here.

You are muddying waters here. You asked what time of Alberta I would choose. That has zero to do with a separate country. Ralph Klein will never run a sovereign Alberta so you are arguing from a position that poses less than zero threat to your causes. You just asked me what time in Alberta history I would choose. I gave you a time where what you think is important and I think was important co-existed.

Hypothetically, you (conceivably you’d stick around) would be part of the sovereign state of Alberta. So would your peers. In your day to day life. Colleagues, friends, acquaintances, shopkeepers, etc that you converse with. Do you really think that the majority want to rail against gay marriage and abortion? Like I said, it’s a non-issue. It’s a dead horse. The average albertan doesn’t care if you or I were gay. The average albertan doesn’t care if you or I (well not me but say my wife) were to have an abortion. It’s not the lightning rod you think it is. These two positions exist only to scare people from the evil conservative parties. (Even though there is no real conservative parties left in Canada. But that’s a whole other discussion) It is nothing more than fear mongering. Harper could’ve abolished it if he chose to and in eleven years as him being PM it was brought up exactly zero times.

As to how the charter of rights were to be arranged I can’t tell you. I will say this though. If Alberta were to go through a democratic process to succeed from Canada do you truly believe we would turn into a dictatorship and allow the populace to lose control of their brand new country?

I do not mean to belittle your positions on gay marriage or abortion by any means. I don’t mean to diminish what it means to you at all. I just think you are wasting time, effort, and sanity to keep fighting for it. It’s done. It’s settled. If gay marriage is legal in Texas; it’s over. The war was won. Stand down soldier; your fight is done. I honestly believe in my heart the majority of albertans don’t oppose either. I know I don’t; and as stated I’m what many would consider WAY right.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

I am not worried about reproductive rights in Canada. I would be, however, if separation occurred. Of course, I live in southern Alberta, and it’s a bit of a different world down here. I would hope the urban centres would be able to water the fundamentalism down, but it would really depend on so many things when the new new country was founded.

And yes, Klein was premier for one year of marriage equality - because it was federal law. Klein and the conservative government at the time absolutely opposed it. So it would be ridiculous to think that the possibility of a stand-alone Alberta would protect the same rights and freedoms that Canada does.

How many Alberta conservatives that live here now do you think would actively vote to ensure both of these rights remained protected? How do you envision an Alberta charter would be developed? In consultation? Democratically? By elected officials? By referendum?

I don’t have any confidence that these would be protected post separation.

And of course, there are plenty of other issues too, but these two are forefront in my mind given the current climate of politics in the south here.

How do you think that our current charter was developed? It wasn't by democracy or consultation with the public or by referendum. Did Trudeau consult us before buying off the media, or doing away with our freedom of speech? We live in a divided country, with a racist charter, and the current government continues to grow that division at every opportunity, by favoring certain people, while ignoring others.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

This sounds more libertarian than conservative.

Curious, what do you think would happen to reproductive choice and marriage freedom if Alberta separated?

I don’t think there would be much change to reproductive choice from what it is now.
And from my experience marriage isn’t freedom at all. LOL.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

This sounds more libertarian than conservative.

Curious, what do you think would happen to reproductive choice and marriage freedom if Alberta separated?

Don’t worry, you’ll still be able to zip tie your flag on your porch.