Administration of Trapping in Alberta

[BAbercrombie]

Just wanted to inject some factual information into the discussion regarding the licensing and administration of trapping in Alberta. The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year. The result will be a centralized system that provides fair and timely administration of licensing, permitting, RFMA renewals and transfers for trappers. The licensing component will be integrated with the existing RELM system and be a much easier and more reliable process for the trapping community. Policy development to support this process is ongoing and there will be broad based consultation with trappers before anything is finalized.
There will be increased fees for license renewals, however the final numbers will be based soley on the cost of administrative operations. The base cost of an RFMA renewal may reach the $300 mark but that number is soley based on the approved fee structure voted on by the ATA membership back in 2009. The fact is that we need to review the entire process over the next 6 months and then see where we are at. Resident licenses will also inclrease but will be somewhere around the $75 mark.
With the administrative change will come increased services and opportunity for all trappers, including more marketing options, professional development training and opportunities to participate in research and management programs that compensate trappers directly. The administrative function will be conducted at arms length from the A organization ensuring equal access and service. An ATA membership although beneficial will not be mandatory.
This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

[Marty S]

Welcome to the forum BAb! Do stay a while. I think Hunter Davey wants to debate you from time to time! or give you a scolding or other

Again I say make it happen, don't just watch it happen. Come to meetings and give your input, have your say. If you don't like things, just show up and speak your mind, there could be others who share your thots.

I guess it does cost money to run such programs, likely no more tax dollars covering the shortfalls.

Better in trapper's hands, not in treehugger influenced other's hands who need to please everybody to win votes.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by BAbercrombie

Just wanted to inject some factual information into the discussion regarding the licensing and administration of trapping in Alberta. The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year. The result will be a centralized system that provides fair and timely administration of licensing, permitting, RFMA renewals and transfers for trappers. The licensing component will be integrated with the existing RELM system and be a much easier and more reliable process for the trapping community. Policy development to support this process is ongoing and there will be broad based consultation with trappers before anything is finalized.
There will be increased fees for license renewals, however the final numbers will be based soley on the cost of administrative operations. The base cost of an RFMA renewal may reach the $300 mark but that number is soley based on the approved fee structure voted on by the ATA membership back in 2009. The fact is that we need to review the entire process over the next 6 months and then see where we are at. Resident licenses will also inclrease but will be somewhere around the $75 mark.
With the administrative change will come increased services and opportunity for all trappers, including more marketing options, professional development training and opportunities to participate in research and management programs that compensate trappers directly. The administrative function will be conducted at arms length from the A organization ensuring equal access and service. An ATA membership although beneficial will not be mandatory.
This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

You've already came to an agreement with the AEP and then you state that consultation with Trappers will be broad based, open and transparent? That ship has already sailed. Once again the ATA has made deals with AEP behind Trapper's backs and only came clean after what you are doing was discovered.

What do you guys do, stay awake at night dreaming up ways to build your empire and generate more revenue? I can currently walk into a F&W office, pay $20, and walk out with my Resident Trapping License. Next year they plan on providing it online just like hunting and fishing licenses. How much easier and more reliable can it be for an extra $55 every year?

Discussing anything with you after you've already made the deal with AEP is a total waste of time. The ONLY way that anyone's voice will be heard is expressing your concerns directly to the Minister of Environment and Parks, the Honorable Jason Nixon at aep.minister@gov.ab.ca.

This is a perfect example of why Trappers like me will never support the ATA and they'll never get my $50 membership fee. At least I can put that money towards the $80 Mandatory Snaring course that they are fighting for or the $75 licensing fees per year that they want to bring in.

[bushbug]

Problem with the ATA is if you disagree with their plans they really dont want to hear what you have to say. Our local was told to be quiet and not make waves by one of our zone directors. So much for joining in on the discussions.

[Redhorse Ranch]

Seventy five bucks so a school kid can catch a few muskrats. If he can afford the three day course to qualify in the first place.

[trapperdodge]

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

Yeah just look at how good works with their self governing.

[HunterDave]

So how do we compare with other provinces?

NF

General License $15
General License (Senior) $9.75
Beaver Trapline - Island $15
Beaver Trapline - Island (Senior) $9.75

NS

Resident Trapping License (16 and older) $10 + HST
Junior Trapping License (under 16) $5 + HST

PEI

$20
$13/year for those 65 years of age and older

NB

Minor (10-15 years of age) $8
16 - 65 years of age $43 + $5 conservation fee
Seniors (65+) $22 + $5 conservation fee

QC

$32

ON

$39.55

MB

$20.00

SK

Fur Licences (Saskatchewan residents only): Southern Fur Conservation Area $40
(SFCA, includes all private and Crown land in central and southern Saskatchewan)

Northern Fur Conservation Area $20
(NFCA, includes all unoccupied Crown land in central and northern Saskatchewan)

Youth Fur Licence (SFCA or NFCA, available only by contacting a Ministry of Environment office)......FREE
Note: Must be a Saskatchewan resident aged 12 to 18 years who has successfully completed a firearm safety/hunter education course and a trapper education course.

BC

$40

YK

$10
Senior citizens (65+): Free

AB

Resident Trapper (ATA Proposed) $75
RFMA Trapper (ATA Proposed) $300

Way to go ATA, AB certainly stands out in a crowd. While other associations have advocated for lower licensing fees for kids and Seniors you went full boar crazy and advocated for increasing the price of licensing for them and everyone else. What a great way to promote trapping.

For the love of gawd, what is wrong with you people?

[Big Grey Wolf]

Mentioned in another post it is now going to take quite a few $20 marten just to cover the $300 license. Not a good time to raise the license cost so high.
However I do like the idea of 'Self government' it will probably give us more control/influence in future trapping changes. It also may help us in dealing with industry.

[Marty S]

They havent disclosed anything yet. Im sure there is some type of provision for enabling young trappers, not shutting them out.

So far we only have limited facts. Those that care need to get involved, sit at a table and present what they like and dislike. Then things come to a vote. We pass it or we stop it.

Looks to me a $25 licence will buy you total govt control in an era where trapping is view by many as distasteful and this sways govt opinion which affects policy

Or

Get in front of things and steer your future with the concensus of your peers.

$300 seems excessive, but we should sit down like adults and discuss things

[kingrat]

What's your current licenses cost? And all your gonna get is the ata being in charge of licensing? That's a pile of extra revenue going somewhere, admin costs? Very similar to an air tax? Wow I feel for ya boys good luck and use lots of lube.

[Wolftrapper]

Originally Posted by kingrat

What's your current licenses cost? And all your gonna get is the ata being in charge of licensing? That's a pile of extra revenue going somewhere, admin costs? Very similar to an air tax? Wow I feel for ya boys good luck and use lots of lube.

Paid $21 with tax.
I won't bother myself if it goes that high.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Marty S

They havent disclosed anything yet. Im sure there is some type of provision for enabling young trappers, not shutting them out.

If that's the case then why after years of a mandatory Standard Trapping courses has the ATA not made any provisions to reduce the price to make it more accessible for kids to take the course? The ATA has had total control over the price of the course and actually increased it, self governance in a sense, and they won't even entertain the thought of reducing the price for anyone. The ATA makes +$200 per student on those courses and generating that revenue is their priority, not making the course more accessible for kids or anyone else.

Do you really think that the ATA will make any provisions for reducing the cost of a license, or the Standard Trapping course for that matter, AFTER they self regulate when they won't do it now? No, it'll increase if anything.

In other provinces their associations advocate for lower costing trapping courses to keep them more accessible, especially for kids. They don't treat it as a cash cow to generate revenue:

NF

Course fee is $150 for adults and $80 for youth (12 - 17)
That includes the Atlantic Trapper Education Student manual

NS

$21.17 plus HST

PEI

Free to those 12 to 15 years of age
$20 for those 16 years of age and over

NB

10-16 years $40
17 and older $65
Trapper Ed Manual $10

QC

$200

ON

The cost of the course is dependent on the costs incurred by the instructor, with the maximum charge being $350.00. Included in the cost is the Fur Harvest, Fur Management and Conservation Course Manual

MB

FREE.........There may be a minimal charge per student to cover expenses.

SK

$35

BC

Course cost, which includes a manual and a one year membership in the BC Trappers Association, is $450 (18 years and older), and $350 for youths (12-17 years).

YK

$315 and includes the Yukon Trappers Manual

AB

$399.00 + GST and includes the Trapper Education Manual

[Redcoat27]

I think a more fair system would to bring in a Royality system on the sale of your fur. Basically the more you catch the more you pay. Most RFMA are having a difficult time in today’s market. Just take a look at all the logging going on.

[Saskfly16]

Originally Posted by Redcoat27

I think a more fair system would to bring in a Royality system on the sale of your fur. Basically the more you catch the more you pay. Most RFMA are having a difficult time in today’s market. Just take a look at all the logging going on.

So Ontario’s royalty is 5% of the average price of the species sold in an Ontario auction house. So you would need to sell over 7000 dollars of fur to pay more with that royalty rate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

Most professional organizations are self regulation. Doctors, engineers lawyers etc. They have a set of professional standards they hold the membership to. They set their own fees and most important is they discipline their own members. For example lawyers who are involved in nefarious dealings are disbarred by their professional organization not the government.

The next level of organizations that seek self government are basically 'trade' organizations. These can be things like insurance brokers, teachers real estate people etc. I think trappers would fall into this category.

Government is less likely to allow full self governance to these organizations because they are not true professionals in the sense listed in the opening paragraph. Because governments really don't want to be involved in the day to day running of quasi professional organizations the are prepared to allow some autonomy to the organization. This is autonomy is usually negotiated between the Ministers office and the organization seeking self governance. I think that is what has happened here. It probably took years to get to this point. I think Gordy Klassen was involved in this process way back when.

Self governance is a good thing. It gives your organization status in that it can look after itself without the provincial government guiding it every step of the way.

With self governance comes the responsibility of being even handed, being able to successfully deal with the issues that present themselves without running to the government of the day asking for help. It also means resisting the allure of building empires.

With self governance comes the issue of standards in the industry. What minimum qualifications should the members of the organization have? Should ongoing continuing education be part of that mandate?

These are some of the questions that may arise as the ATA moves forward. There will be many more. It's just my opinion but trapping is going to face difficult questions in the near future. Being at arms length from the government gives the organization some needed distance and legitimacy.

This is EXACTLY why the ATA should NEVER be allowed to self govern. I think that having the ability to create additional revenue through more mandatory courses and workshops is likely their end game. That's a HUGE conflict of interest right there.

Could you imagine the ATA deciding what trapping courses and workshops should be mandatory AND deciding on what they cost? Oh, and while we're at it, why not make them and the Standard Trapping course mandatory to attend every 5 years or so?

WRT your comparison of real estate agents, insurance brokers and teachers to Trappers. I've heard that ridiculous argument presented by ATA people before. Trappers have no where even remotely close to the amount of ever changing regulations, etc to deal with as those professionals. Unless you are suggesting that Trappers should have years of university training, I think that a better comparison would be with lobster fisherman, lumberjacks, carpenters, etc......but they wouldn't fit with your narrative.

[cody j]

I am not knowledgeable in any way about past or present ATA politics, one question I have is if extra revenue was generated from courses or license fees how would it be put to use? Would it be used in a way that would benefit Alberta trappers and the fur industry? If so maybe that could be a positive thing, but if the funds were not used wisely that’s another story

[trapperdodge]

HD

I never suggested trappers should have years of university training. I said trappers are basically 'trade' organizations like lobster fisherman, lumberjacks and carpenters.

I have no narrative Dave. I was merely pointing out some of the advantages and pitfalls of self governance. I have no dog in this fight. I'm a member of the ATA but have never met any of the executive.

I think if you re-read my post I point out that any organization should resist the temptation to build empires.

Ultimately it is the business of trappers themselves to decide what kind of organization they want.

Trapping is facing difficult challenges. IMO having a united front to face these challenges would be a good thing.

[South west trappin RG]

Originally Posted by trapperdodge

HD

I never suggested trappers should have years of university training. I said trappers are basically 'trade' organizations like lobster fisherman, lumberjacks and carpenters.

I have no narrative Dave. I was merely pointing out some of the advantages and pitfalls of self governance. I have no dog in this fight. I'm a member of the ATA but have never met any of the executive.

I think if you re-read my post I point out that any organization should resist the temptation to build empires.

Ultimately it is the business of trappers themselves to decide what kind of organization they want.

Trapping is facing difficult challenges. IMO having a united front to face these challenges would be a good thing.

Dave May have a nervous break down over this one he hasn't had a good rant an hair pulling in a while. I don’t know any more details than what’s posted here but I haven’t come up with any conclusion till I here from Bill an some directors on said subjects. Self governance is a ultimate goal with any industry, especially one that has some real haters against it. Southern Alberta Trappers Association has a meeting planed with Bill Ambercombie to find out actual facts an the direction the association has planed.

[TrapperMike]

I believe the ATA has some great ideas and plans. Such as the purchase of a registered trap line to be used for education purposes. This will give all who take the opportunity to spend some time on a real Trapline to understand why we as trappers love our chosen profession. Great for public relations.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by South west trappin RG

Dave May have a nervous break down over this one he hasn't had a good rant an hair pulling in a while. I don’t know any more details than what’s posted here but I haven’t come up with any conclusion till I here from Bill an some directors on said subjects. Self governance is a ultimate goal with any industry, especially one that has some real haters against it. Southern Alberta Trappers Association has a meeting planed with Bill Ambercombie to find out actual facts an the direction the association has planed.

What a crock.....lol. Bill could hand you a crap sandwich and you’d Wolf it down and say it was delicious. Pretending to be objective is a nice touch though. Anyone that would drive from south of Calgary to the ATA depot in Westlock to turn in their fur in order to support the ATA is beyond fanatical.

Label me a hater if you want but you shouldn’t take it personally. I hate anyone and any organization that is detrimental to anyone pursuing trapping in Alberta......PETA, Fur Defenders, Wolf Matters.......the ATA. I actually have more respect for the antis as they want to shut people out of trapping based on their beliefs and not because of control and money.

I’ll NEVER make apologies for sticking up for Trappers, particularly kids and low income earners that want to trap. If you are opposed to that then I think that you’ve had too much koolaide and you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

I believe the ATA has some great ideas and plans. Such as the purchase of a registered trap line to be used for education purposes. This will give all who take the opportunity to spend some time on a real Trapline to understand why we as trappers love our chosen profession. Great for public relations.

I agree. Having new Trappers actually be on an RFMA is way better than sitting in a classroom. Imagine if there could be a number of RFMA’s throughout Alberta where people could take their Standard Trapping course? It’d be fantastic!

This is already being done right on traplines in Ontario and it doesn’t cost a cent to Trappers. There’s no need to inflate prices on anything in order to generate revenue that can be used to purchase RFMA’s. Once trained, instructors are able to negotiate the price of the course with the only stipulation that it doesn’t exceed $350. If you can work out a deal with the instructor you might even be able to have your 12 year old Son attend with you at no additional cost. Wouldn’t that be great for trapping in Alberta?

What do you think? Do you think that the ATA would ever give up control of their golden goose for the betterment of trapping in Alberta? After all, it’s all about doing what’s best for trapping in Alberta.......isn’t it?

Have a look at this and tell me why we shouldn’t do something like this in Alberta:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz1DsuEbWxI

[South west trappin RG]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

What a crock.....lol. Bill could hand you a crap sandwich and you’d Wolf it down and say it was delicious. Pretending to be objective is a nice touch though. Anyone that would drive from south of Calgary to the ATA depot in Westlock to turn in their fur in order to support the ATA is beyond fanatical.

Label me a hater if you want but you shouldn’t take it personally. I hate anyone and any organization that is detrimental to anyone pursuing trapping in Alberta......PETA, Fur Defenders, Wolf Matters.......the ATA. I actually have more respect for the antis as they want to shut people out of trapping based on their beliefs and not because of control and money.

I’ll NEVER make apologies for sticking up for Trappers, particularly kids and low income earners that want to trap. If you are opposed to that then I think that you’ve had too much koolaide and you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

My driving to west lock to drop off furs still making you upset? I actually feel bad for you Dave. On the trips I also drop off an pick up work in multiple locations, visit friends ect. That make you feel better? If you put half the effort you do on the internet to actually making a difference You could make change. I think you would be a great asset to have on the ATA board, a difference of opinion is a great thing, an making sure the ATA is working for trappers. I am not sure what you have against everyone only gaining info from a computer, make a phone call sit in on a meeting talk to a human. The whole board that makes decisions are volunteers that want to keep trapping alive an thriving they can’t be that intimidating.

[Marty S]

HUNTER DAVEY for PRESIDENT!!!

let’s have us an old fashioned showdown!!!

[Marty S]

But yes Dave, you should come to meetings, add your distinctiveness to the collective.

Would be bad to have a room full of yes men dimwits. Id never want to see that.

[Trappingman]

Originally Posted by Marty S

But yes Dave, you need to come to meetings, add your distinctiveness to the collective.

Would be bad to have a room full of yes men dimwits. Id never want to see that.

That would involve leaving the basement and I think it’s pretty clear that’s not happening lmao

[AlbertaAl]

I see interesting information and arguments from both sides but when I see obvious bullying or mocking directed at a fellow member of Alberta Outdoorsman then it gets disappointing.
That's the reason many readers are mute on being involved which is something that's supposedly encouraged.

[HunterDave]

You poor individuals. The ATA has already made the agreement with AEP and you think that you have a say in anything? Just like they did with requesting a mandatory Snaring course, only after the cat is out of the bag do they come clean to inform the membership of what they've done. NOW they say that everyone will be consulted and everything will be open an transparent AFTER they've already made the agreement. Any say that you think that you have is merely an illusion. Being told to just sit there and not make waves should be your first clue.

I've heard that a long, long time ago, before the ATA became a business and their main focus became generating revenue, there were many really great people on the executive that genuinely cared about Trappers. Unfortunately, they became frustrated with the business path that Gordy was taking the ATA and left. It was go along with everything or get out. That leaves us where we are today, with an association that's more interested in being a business than it is an advocate for Trappers.

As far as me attending any ATA meetings, I do not support the ATA and I'm not a member. I once was until three things happened one right after the other. First, because I wasn't getting any information from the ATA about anything other than picnics and raffles, I submitted a FOIP for the minutes to ATA/AEP meetings. That's where I discovered that the ATA had formally requested a mandatory Snaring course without any consultation with the membership and behind our backs. I shared that info on this forum and blew the whistle on it. Then I requested the draft minutes of the AGM so I could keep up with what was happening in my association. That request was denied.......if you don't go you don't know was the policy. Finally, I made a deal with Bill to trade him the minutes of an ATA/AEP meeting that I had for a copy of the draft AGM meeting. As agreed upon I emailed Bill a copy of the minutes but guess what? He reneged on the agreement that we made and refused to provide me with a copy of the AGM minutes. So, excuse me for not having any trust in the ATA whatsoever. I'll get my facts through FOIP requests to find out about what the ATA is doing behind Trapper's backs (ie. requesting mandatory snaring courses and lobbying to take over licensing). I'll also make sure that my voice is heard by contacting the Minister directly at aep.minister@gov.ab.ca

Anyone that thinks the ATA taking over the licensing and raising the costs is great for trapping in Alberta has had too much koolaid. It might be a great for the ATA but it only makes it that much harder for anyone interested in becoming a Trapper. Unlicensed trapping is already occurring due to the high cost of the mandatory Standard Trapping course and the ATA wants more mandatory courses and increased licensing fees? If you want to worry about the future of trapping in Alberta I think that you ought to worry about the ATA making it so expensive that only the rich will be able to afford to trap.

[sourdough doug]

I'm having to agree with you Dave..All of what is happening, has been building for some time and in my opinion, by a number of self serving individuals, starting under the regime of those who followed GAG ( Gospel according to G@###), if you know who I mean. I am not against the ATA in their quest for self governess but not at the expense of their own members. Remember what was said about self-serving peoples now in the position to implement their agenda.
With our gov't in financial straits, they will gladly hand over the reigns to anyone willing to accept them and thus save themselves money and at the same time give you all the rope you need to use on yourself. AS I SEE IT..

[TrapperMike]

Liked your “you tube” video Dave. That is also the plan thats on the go thru the ATA. The RFMA line has already been purchased and the ATA is working with others who want to see this type of program in Alberta.