Spring 2023 fires —Arson

[schleprock]

Probably the 54 year old Glendon woman Audrey Elaine Dunham who admitted to setting 32 fires in the Bonnyville and Lac la Biche area. She was charged with arson and given a nine month jail sentence but served her time with community service and was also given a 18 month probation sentence for the millions of dollars spent putting the fires out.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys we have a very serious Fire situation in Alberta. We had over 1000 fires last year, BC had over 2000. However we burnt twice the area of BC with half the fires. Alberta Forestry did not put most of the fires out when they first started. Problem:
1) We have No more Smoke Jumpers.
2) We have No more Manned Forestry Towers.
3) We have No water Bombers contracted.
4) We rent a few Choppers to drop small buckets of water.
We will be okay this year we bought some night googles from Army Surplus store.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys we have a very serious Fire situation in Alberta. We had over 1000 fires last year, BC had over 2000. However we burnt twice the area of BC with half the fires. Alberta Forestry did not put most of the fires out when they first started. Problem:
1) We have No more Smoke Jumpers.
2) We have No more Manned Forestry Towers.
3) We have No water Bombers contracted.
4) We rent a few Choppers to drop small buckets of water.
We will be okay this year we bought some night googles from Army Surplus store.

I spent yesterday afternoon out looking over a large fuel reduction area in the BC interior. The end product was a beautiful area with mostly the largest, healthiest trees left, tons of browse for the mule and whitetails in the area, and a much safer area fire wise. The area was a just a continuation of a couple of big areas they did last winter as well. It sounds like they finally are getting their act together and hiring staff to thin all winter, and then work the fires when needed in the summer. Expensive, but after decades of crappy logging practices it needs to be done. The sites were full of deer due I assume to the vastly improved browse situation, interspersed with tons of mature cover.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by schleprock

Probably the 54 year old Glendon woman Audrey Elaine Dunham who admitted to setting 32 fires in the Bonnyville and Lac la Biche area. She was charged with arson and given a nine month jail sentence but served her time with community service and was also given a 18 month probation sentence for the millions of dollars spent putting the fires out.

Our catch & release system obviously isn’t working. Let’s try life imprisonment and see how things change.

[6.5 shooter]

Come on guys you know it is climate change Right?? .... Phil M

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys we have a very serious Fire situation in Alberta. We had over 1000 fires last year, BC had over 2000. However we burnt twice the area of BC with half the fires. Alberta Forestry did not put most of the fires out when they first started. Problem:
1) We have No more Smoke Jumpers.
2) We have No more Manned Forestry Towers.
3) We have No water Bombers contracted.
4) We rent a few Choppers to drop small buckets of water.
We will be okay this year we bought some night googles from Army Surplus store.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys we have a very serious Fire situation in Alberta. We had over 1000 fires last year, BC had over 2000. However we burnt twice the area of BC with half the fires. Alberta Forestry did not put most of the fires out when they first started. Problem:
1) We have No more Smoke Jumpers.
2) We have No more Manned Forestry Towers.
3) We have No water Bombers contracted.
4) We rent a few Choppers to drop small buckets of water.
We will be okay this year we bought some night googles from Army Surplus store.

Your ignoring geography and the difference between how fires burn in mountainous areas compared to how they burn in flatter areas. Flatter area fires travel faster get large faster compared to mountain areas where fires are more likely to be smaller and more likely to stay confined to valleys limiting spread.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Scott h

I spent yesterday afternoon out looking over a large fuel reduction area in the BC interior. The end product was a beautiful area with mostly the largest, healthiest trees left, tons of browse for the mule and whitetails in the area, and a much safer area fire wise. The area was a just a continuation of a couple of big areas they did last winter as well. It sounds like they finally are getting their act together and hiring staff to thin all winter, and then work the fires when needed in the summer. Expensive, but after decades of crappy logging practices it needs to be done. The sites were full of deer due I assume to the vastly improved browse situation, interspersed with tons of mature cover.

Unfortunately people want their cake and eat it too.

[Big Grey Wolf]

8ushrat, I agree BC fires are more in mountain terrain, however it is much harder to get access for cats and fly water bombers in the mountains.
The point I am making in Alberta we now let fires "RIP" and they burn for 50 miles instead of tackling them when they are small.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

8ushrat, I agree BC fires are more in mountain terrain, however it is much harder to get access for cats and fly water bombers in the mountains.
The point I am making in Alberta we now let fires "RIP" and they burn for 50 miles instead of tackling them when they are small.

There is also a difference in fuel at times as well depending on the location in BC. When an Alberta wildfire whips through the grass/fields it covers ground a lot faster than a mature forest.

It’s a lot more complex than just land mass burnt

I would agree BC is more prepared but look at the history of wildfires between the two provinces. BC on average if fighting more wildfires a year than Alberta

Trust me as someone who has ran equipment on fires in BC and my family does still when they are near by BC is far from a great example on how they should be handled. There has been many miss managed fires in BC


Would it be a good idea for Alberta to be more prepared essentially for this season you bet. But BC has a long history of screwing up and they are just starting to learn from it and become more proactive

[Strait Shooter]

There are still 92 active fires in British Columbia and another 54 in Alberta, holdovers from last year burning underground according to the latest figures from the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre. Others are also active in the Northwest Territories.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/climate/wild...erta-1.7119851

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Strait Shooter

There are still 92 active fires in British Columbia and another 54 in Alberta, holdovers from last year burning underground according to the latest figures from the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre. Others are also active in the Northwest Territories.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/climate/wild...erta-1.7119851

The joys of muskeg, bogs and any area with heigh % of organics in the soil. Add in a lack of snow pack and they are not going to go out all that easily

Not a new issue some fires smolder underground for multiple seasons

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

8ushrat, I agree BC fires are more in mountain terrain, however it is much harder to get access for cats and fly water bombers in the mountains.
The point I am making in Alberta we now let fires "RIP" and they burn for 50 miles instead of tackling them when they are small.

Funny how when they happen in BC in similar geography to Alberta like the Donny Creek fire north of FSJ they 'Rip' just like they do/did in Alberta. Their supposed 'superior' wildfire fighting capabilities apparently weren't anymore effective than Albertas. We could have 5 times the firefighting capability and it wouldn't make much difference when conditions are right for a 'ripper'.
You can't stop a mad Grizzly even if you had 5 pellet guns instead of just one.

With a lot of these fires when conditions are right like last year, they would have to be stopped in the first few minutes before they get out of control sometimes almost immediately and there is no stopping them. We simply don't have enough fire fighters even if we increased numbers and equipment 5 fold to hang out on every quarter section in case a fire breaks out to jump on it immediately and extinguish it before it gets away.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Bushrat, that is what fire towers and Smoke Jumpers are equipped to do. They were strategically placed throughout Alberta with a Chopper to hit them fast and hard. Someone decieded to save a few $$ and let Rocky, Drayton, Edson, Hinton, Whitecourt, Slave Lake, Fox Creek, High level, and Valleyview forest fires burn their communities.

[Grizzly Adams1]

And in Japan they turn it into a festival.

https://livejapan.com/en/in-kansai/i...icle-a2000264/

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Bushrat, that is what fire towers and Smoke Jumpers are equipped to do. They were strategically placed throughout Alberta with a Chopper to hit them fast and hard. Someone decieded to save a few $$ and let Rocky, Drayton, Edson, Hinton, Whitecourt, Slave Lake, Fox Creek, High level, and Valleyview forest fires burn their communities.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Bushrat, that is what fire towers and Smoke Jumpers are equipped to do. They were strategically placed throughout Alberta with a Chopper to hit them fast and hard. Someone decieded to save a few $$ and let Rocky, Drayton, Edson, Hinton, Whitecourt, Slave Lake, Fox Creek, High level, and Valleyview forest fires burn their communities.

I wasn’t aware those communities burned down this year. Kudos to the many I have been in, in the last couple months for rebuilding so quickly.

Alberta changed forest fire policy though. Because of 50ish years of suppressing fires they are no longer fighting wildfires until they threaten communities. When these massive fires burn out it will take several decades before they become as volatile.

Proper forest management.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Bushrat, that is what fire towers and Smoke Jumpers are equipped to do. They were strategically placed throughout Alberta with a Chopper to hit them fast and hard. Someone decieded to save a few $$ and let Rocky, Drayton, Edson, Hinton, Whitecourt, Slave Lake, Fox Creek, High level, and Valleyview forest fires burn their communities.

Myself and several others on here were evacuees during the Drayton fire. That fire shouldn't have happened at all. A week before that fire a small fire got started 7 miles southeast of town as the crow flies, local helicopter jumped on it, dumped a dozen buckets on it supposedly extinguishishing it. Gov't fire officials showed up after, dropped the ball and failed to see that it was monitored. Several days later it got hot and windy, the fire restarted, roared to life, crossed two highways, a mile apart, down into the river bottom, jumped the river and up the hill across another highway, they got it stopped from getting into town at the ring road on the south edge of town, fire carried on around and past the town. The fire went 7 miles to town from it's origin in about 6 hours.

Friend of mine lives a mile or so from where the fire restarted, had the majority of his 1/4 section burned, lost his barn, a few outbuildings, cars and farm machinery. Local oil service companies responded on their own with water cannons, tank trucks, cats, hoes, etc., saved his and his dads homes. If it wasn't for them he would have lost it all. The entire town full of equipment mobilized to fight fire. Fire officials ordered them to stand down while those same officials stood around on their phone and radios while the fire spread, most provincial crews were fighting fires elsewhere Anyway those locals and their equipment backed off, snuck away and went and saved numerous rural homes in the area surrounding town.

I agree we could use better provincial firefighting capabilities and more manpower. When conditions are right and a bunch of big fires start in the same time frame they are spread too thin.

My opinion is that there are many companies with equipment, especially in oil towns that could respond and put the damper on many of these fires well before Provincial fire crews can respond, in most cases too late. But they are not allowed. I think the gov't should pay to train employees of these companies, certify their equipment and operators, sanction them as emergency first responder fire fighters, in coordination with provincial fire officials. The fire that burned around Drayton should never have been allowed to cross the first highway, then a second, then jump the N.Saskatchewan river and then jump another major highway. The ball was completely dropped and it wasn't because the fire couldn't be fought, the gov't wouldn't allow locals to fight it.

Back in the day fire officials would go to bars, restaurants, anywhere they could find men and equipment to fight fires. Not allowed anymore.

[JohninAB]

So did the Drayton fire start in the Forest Protection Area or outside of it? Was it county fire crews responsible for it or Alberta Forestry crews?

Trestle Creek fire started outside of the Forest Protection Area. Alberta Forestry provided mutual aid in the form of air tanker and helicopter support. Alberta Forestry was not the lead agency on the fire, Parkland County was.

Will leave it at that.

[JohninAB]

Further clarification, Parkland was lead agency from the initial start on Saturday till the fire took off on its big run the following Thursday and entered into the Forest Protection Area.

As for comments on Rap, fire crew response times etc, those in the know, know!

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

So did the Drayton fire start in the Forest Protection Area or outside of it? Was it county fire crews responsible for it or Alberta Forestry crews?

Trestle Creek fire started outside of the Forest Protection Area. Alberta Forestry provided mutual aid in the form of air tanker and helicopter support. Alberta Forestry was not the lead agency on the fire, Parkland County was.

Will leave it at that.

Your right.. it would have been Brazeau County initially having been responsible. Forestry was summoned as fire was bearing down on town. I assumed Forestry would have taken over managing the fire. The county doesn't have the knowledge or resources to fight such a fire on their own. Wasn't aware the county could maintain lead after forestry got involved. .

The previous originating fire was Brazeau County's responsibility.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Until we start to take forestry fire fighting seriously in Canada we are in big trouble in our forest communities. We require Federal Government ( Not the fool) Provincial (Still in training) and Counties with Major coordinated investment in equipment like water bombers/cats etc(not shovels for out of country fire fighters to lean on). The investment required is in the $billions.
Equipment could be moved to each province with the highest fire threat as need is recognized.

[JohninAB]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Until we start to take forestry fire fighting seriously in Canada we are in big trouble in our forest communities. We require Federal Government ( Not the fool) Provincial (Still in training) and Counties with Major coordinated investment in equipment like water bombers/cats etc(not shovels for out of country fire fighters to lean on). The investment required is in the $billions.
Equipment could be moved to each province with the highest fire threat as need is recognized.

You have no concept of fire fighting. Already coordination between provinces to assist each other during major fire campaigns/hazards.

Insult to the fine firefighters out there to say they lean on their shovels. Grab your boots and gloves and go work a fireline with them.

Water bombers, air tankers, cats etc can only do so much. No matter how many you have, if Mother Nature is going to burn, she burns.

Need people to operate said equipment. Do not see many people lining up to do so.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Until we start to take forestry fire fighting seriously in Canada we are in big trouble in our forest communities. We require Federal Government ( Not the fool) Provincial (Still in training) and Counties with Major coordinated investment in equipment like water bombers/cats etc(not shovels for out of country fire fighters to lean on). The investment required is in the $billions.
Equipment could be moved to each province with the highest fire threat as need is recognized.

Spending years putting out fires is what put us in this position. More old growth forest than there has ever been. Look at Kananaskis, time bomb waiting to go off (thankfully they have started logging it).
I welcome the non destructive fires, creates better habitat and increases the ungulate population

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Spending years putting out fires is what put us in this position. More old growth forest than there has ever been. Look at Kananaskis, time bomb waiting to go off (thankfully they have started logging it).
I welcome the non destructive fires, creates better habitat and increases the ungulate population

This is very true fire has benefits and we created a mess by being too successful at fighting fires and poor forest management. In moderation fire is actually good

We lack the natural fire breaks that once occurred from past fires, replanting carpets of marketable timber vs mixed forest that doesn’t burn as quickly, and yes areas of old growth that with built up debris as well

There is a reason parts of northern BC are now running selective logging near towns/cities. Loggers are using a combination of harvesters/forwarders(they have modified processors too) instead of clear cuts with bunchers/skidders removing mature evergreens/beetle kill and leaving mature aspen that contain more moisture. About 25% of the contracts the company my brother works are this style in the last 2 years

But it’s way more fun to scream climate change and tax people so the media won’t talk about these issues as much

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Until we start to take forestry fire fighting seriously in Canada we are in big trouble in our forest communities. We require Federal Government ( Not the fool) Provincial (Still in training) and Counties with Major coordinated investment in equipment like water bombers/cats etc(not shovels for out of country fire fighters to lean on). The investment required is in the $billions.
Equipment could be moved to each province with the highest fire threat as need is recognized.

Stand down, would you please!

You’re ranting like someone who’s off their medication.

JohninAb and Bushrat have already embarrassed you, with hard facts!

[Strait Shooter]

[/QUOTE]My opinion is that there are many companies with equipment, especially in oil towns that could respond and put the damper on many of these fires well before Provincial fire crews can respond, in most cases too late. But they are not allowed. I think the gov't should pay to train employees of these companies, certify their equipment and operators, sanction them as emergency first responder fire fighters, in coordination with provincial fire officials. The fire that burned around Drayton should never have been allowed to cross the first highway, then a second, then jump the N.Saskatchewan river and then jump another major highway. The ball was completely dropped and it wasn't because the fire couldn't be fought, the gov't wouldn't allow locals to fight it.

Back in the day fire officials would go to bars, restaurants, anywhere they could find men and equipment to fight fires. Not allowed anymore.[/QUOTE]

Not all that simple a solution to implement considering insurance liabilities and people who would get involved without adequate training. The only thing they could do in that situation is have them sign a waiver to waive liability.

[Smoky buck]

My opinion is that there are many companies with equipment, especially in oil towns that could respond and put the damper on many of these fires well before Provincial fire crews can respond, in most cases too late. But they are not allowed. I think the gov't should pay to train employees of these companies, certify their equipment and operators, sanction them as emergency first responder fire fighters, in coordination with provincial fire officials. The fire that burned around Drayton should never have been allowed to cross the first highway, then a second, then jump the N.Saskatchewan river and then jump another major highway. The ball was completely dropped and it wasn't because the fire couldn't be fought, the gov't wouldn't allow locals to fight it.

Back in the day fire officials would go to bars, restaurants, anywhere they could find men and equipment to fight fires. Not allowed anymore.[/QUOTE]

Not all that simple a solution to implement considering insurance liabilities and people who would get involved without adequate training. The only thing they could do in that situation is have them sign a waiver to waive liability.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about Alberta but in BC a lot of the loggers take training and assist in fighting forest fires when in their area. I have operated skidder doing this on two different seasons myself and my brother who is a lifer BC logger has many seasons doing so

I actually tried to offer assistance when I was evacuated out of Drayton but was snubbed off even with past experience.

Alberta should be working with logging and oilfield companies like BC does with its loggers

[JohninAB]

Alberta does work with logging and oil companies. A lot of good trained fire personnel available and willing to help and are gladly welcomed onto the fire. A lot of the cat bosses are industry personnel. Others fill roles in supply and logistics. Needless to say, all the heavy equipment operators are industry personnel.

Always training available to get certified for fire duty. Even Alberta Forestry staff have to train and keep their certifications up to date.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Alberta does work with logging and oil companies. A lot of good trained fire personnel available and willing to help and are gladly welcomed onto the fire. A lot of the cat bosses are industry personnel. Others fill roles in supply and logistics. Needless to say, all the heavy equipment operators are industry personnel.

Always training available to get certified for fire duty. Even Alberta Forestry staff have to train and keep their certifications up to date.

So same as BC some resource companies send guys for training and are getting used?

Or are you talking about guys training and joining the fire department on their own