Ultimate coyote & deer caliber ?

[DOGFISH]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Kind of a piggyback off on earlier thread, but am looking to purchase one of these.
I plan on introducing my 12 yr old daughter to hunting next season ( plus that's an easier sell to the wife to get a coyote gun for me !! ) so recoil is an important consideratiion.
My initial thought was 243, but now I'm also thinking 25-06 or 257. I thought maybe one of the wssm's but recoil may be a factor. How would the above 3 compare as far as recoil?
Any suggestions on the best caliber and rifle?
I want to keep it fairly light ( <7lb for sure ) as well as fairly light on the $$$$ so it won't be a Weatherby ultralight unfortunately !!
Thinking maybe a Savage or the MArlin or Mossberg ?

Thanks.

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight, Recoil energy ,Recoil velocity
.17 HMR (17 at 2550) 7.5 0.2 n/a
.17 Rem. (25 at 4000) 8.5 1.6 3.5
.204 Ruger (33 at 4225) 8.5 2.6 4.4
.218 Bee (45 at 2800) 8.5 1.3 3.1
.22 LR (40 at 1165) 4.0 0.2 n/a
.22 WMR (40 at 1910) 6.75 0.4 n/a
.22 Hornet (45 at 2800) 7.5 1.3 3.3
.22 PPC (52 at 3300) 8.5 3.0 4.8
.221 Fireball (50 at 3000) 8.5 1.8 3.7
.222 Rem. (50 at 3200) 7.5 3.0 5.1
.223 Rem. (45 at 3500) 8.5 2.6 4.5
.223 Rem. (55 at 3200) 8.0 3.2 5.1
.223 Rem. (62 at 3025) 7.0 3.9 6.0
.22-250 Rem. (55 at 3600) 8.5 4.7 6.0
.22-250 Rem. (60 at 3500) 12.5 3.1 4.0
.220 Swift (50 at 3900) 10.5 3.7 4.8
.220 Swift (55 at 3800) 8.5 5.3 6.4
.223 WSSM (55 at 3850) 7.5 6.4 7.4
6mm PPC (85 at 2800) 7.5 5.3 n/a
.243 Win. (75 at 3400) 8.5 7.2 7.4
.243 Win. (95 at 3100) 7.25 11.0 9.9
(.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7 *******)
6mm Rem. (100 at 3100) 8.0 10.0 9.0
.243 WSSM (100 at 3100) 7.5 10.1 9.3
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 at 3406) 8.0 17.9 n/a
.25-20 Win. (86 at 1460) 6.5 1.3 3.5
.25-35 Win. (117 at 2230) 6.5 7.0 8.3
.250 Savage (100 at 2900) 7.5 7.8 8.2
(.257 Roberts (100 at 3000) 7.5 9.3 8.9 *******)
.257 Roberts (120 at 2800) 8.0 10.7 9.3
.25 WSSM (120 at 2990) 7.25 13.8 11.1
(.25-06 Rem. (100 at 3230) 8.0 11.0 9.4 *******)
.25-06 Rem. (120 at 3000) 8.0 12.5 10.0
(.257 Wby. Mag. (100 at 3602) 9.25 15.8 10.5*******)
.257 Wby. Mag. (115 at 3433) 9.25 17.7 11.1
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 at 3300) 9.25 15.1 10.3
6.5mm Grendel (120 at 2600) 7.5 8.9 8.8
6.5x55 Swede (129 at 2700) 8.0 12.5 10.0
6.5x55 Swede (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7
.260 Rem. (120 at 2860) 7.5 13.0 10.6
.260 Rem. (140 at 2750) 8.25 11.9 9.7
6.5mm-284 Norma (140 at 2920) 8.0 14.7 10.9
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 at 3100) 8.0 13.1 10.3
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (140 at 2900) 8.5 13.9 10.3
6.5x68 S (140 at 2990) 8.5 16.8 11.3
.264 Win. Mag. (140 at 3200) 8.5 19.2 12.1
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 at 2625) 7.5 8.0 8.3
.270 Win. (130 at 3140) 8.0 16.5 n/a
.270 Win. (140 at 3000) 8.0 17.1 11.7
.270 Win. (150 at 2900) 8.0 17.0 11.7
.270 WSM (130 at 3275) 8.0 18.7 12.3
.270 WSM (150 at 3000) 8.0 18.9 12.3
.270 Wby. Mag. (130 at 3375) 9.0 21.0 12.3
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 at 3000) 9.25 17.8 11.1
7-30 Waters (120 at 2700) 7.0 10.0 9.6
7x57 Mauser (139 at 2700) 8.75 11.7 9.3
7x57 Mauser (145 at 2725) 8.5 13.0 9.9
7x57 Mauser (160 at 2600) 8.0 14.3 n/a
7x57 Mauser (175 at 2500) 8.0 15.5 11.2
7mm-08 Rem. (120 at 3000) 7.5 12.1 10.2
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1
.284 Win (150 at 2860) 7.5 17.4 n/a
7x64 (154 at 2850) 8.0 17.9 n/a
.280 Rem. (140 at 3000) 8.0 17.2 11.8
.280 Rem. (150 at 2900) 8.0 17.4 11.8
.280 Rem. (160 at 2800) 8.0 17.0 11.7
7mm Rem. SAUM (160 at 2931) 8.0 21.5 13.2
7mm WSM (140 at 3200) 8.0 20.7 12.9
7mm WSM (160 at 3000) 8.0 21.9 13.3
7mm Rem. Mag. (139 at 3100) 9.0 19.3 11.8
7mm Rem. Mag. (150 at 3100) 8.5 19.2 12.1
7mm Rem. Mag. (160 at 2950) 9.0 20.3 12.0
7mm Rem. Mag. (175 at 2870) 9.0 21.7 12.5
7mm Wby. Mag. (140 at 3300) 9.25 19.5 11.7
7mm Wby. Mag. (160 at 3200) 9.0 25.6 13.5
7mm STW (160 at 3185) 8.5 27.9 14.6
7mm Ultra Mag. (140 at 3425) 8.5 25.3 n/a
7mm Ultra Mag. (160 at 3200) 8.5 29.4 n/a
.30 Carbine (110 at 1990) 7.0 3.5 5.7
.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5
.30-30 Win. (160 at 2400) 7.5 12.7 10.5
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7
.30-40 Krag (180 at 2430) 8.0 16.6 n/a
.300 Sav. (150 at 2630) 7.5 14.8 n/a
.307 Win. (150 at 2600) 7.5 13.7 10.9
.308 Marlin Express (160 at 2660) 8.0 13.4 10.4
.308 Win. (150 at 2800) 7.5 15.8 11.7
.308 Win. (165 at 2700) 7.5 18.1 12.5
.308 Win. (180 at 2610) 8.0 17.5 11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910) 8.0 17.6 11.9
.30-06 Spfd. (165 at 2900) 8.0 20.1 12.7
.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700) 8.0 20.3 12.8
.300 Rem. SAUM (180 at 2960) 8.25 23.5 13.6
.300 WSM (150 at 3300) 8.25 22.5 13.3
.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 7.25 27.1 15.5
.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 8.25 23.8 13.6
Maybe this table will help you with your original question

[Mountain Guy]

^^^
Thanks...it helps

[Pudelpointer]

Mountain Guy, I think it is really easy to get hung up on recoil, and start making a bigger issue then it is.

FWIW, (IMO anyway) noise is a much bigger issue to worry about. Granted, starting her off with a 338 is not appropriate, but ANY of the cartridges mentioned so far, especially with judicious hand loading, will be easily handled by any child that has not been: 1. babied from day one, 2. convinced that the rifle will "kick" her, or 3. wearing inadequate hearing protection.

Keep the recoil under 15 ft/lbs or so, and make sure she is wearing ear plugs AND ear muffs. Then keep the amount of shooting reasonable, say 1 shot the first time out; if she is excited about that first shot, then let her shoot another, but no more then 3 or so. Now do not take offense, but it is kind of like training a dog (bear with here people...) in that if you keep them from getting board (or in this case sore) they will be super keen to go next time. For example:

My dad (love him to death) was a really cheap guy when it came to shooting. We would go to the range, and I would get to shoot maybe 25 rounds out of the 22, then 1 shot out of whatever he happened to be shooting, and then I would beg and plead to be able to take "just one more!", and some times I did, some times I did not. To me it was a privilege to shoot, and I would shoot ANYTHING that someone was willing to let me try. I think I was 9 or 10 the first time I shot his 444, and 11 when I started shooting my uncles 8 Rem Mag. At 12 I inherited my grandfathers single shot 12 and would shoot at clays my dad would throw, until he decided enough for one day (usually 10 or so). I think I was around 10 or 11 when a fellow at the range, noticing my intense interest in his 357 revolver let me fire off a cylinder of 38 special. When I didn't drop it, he let me run through a cylinder of 357 mag. My dad intensely hated (hates) handguns, but let me shoot it anyway, because he did not want me to have any irrational fears (which he himself seemed to have about handguns). BTW, I was the skinniest, tiniest kid; I was probably all of 70 lbs at age 11. I was not one of those crazy little "tough" kids that know no pain, I just was so happy to get a chance to do some shooting, any shooting, that I was not afraid to try anything.

243, 257, 6.5 something, 7mm whatever... I don't think it matters too much. Teach her the proper fundamentals of shooting with the 22 (i.e. keeping it tight to her shoulder, squeeze the trigger, breath out slowly, etc.) and let her shoot. Don't freak her out talking about recoil (I see this with guys and their wives/kids all the time - "this 12 guage will knock you clean on your butt!" - morons, then they wonder why their wives/daughters won't go shooting with them). Good hearing protection. No problems.

Another suggestion, is having her shoot while standing should make any recoil less noticeable, but holding the rifle up by herself may prove difficult at first. A set of shooting sticks that she can rest it on would help a lot, not only allowing her to hold the rifle up while aiming, it will also help her be steady, increasing the chance that she hits what she is aiming at (which goes a long way towards keeping them interested). If she misses, who cares, don't encourage her to keep shooting until she hits the target, just a shot or two, maybe three if she wants to keep going. Keep it fun.

[jcbruno]

6.5X55 swede beautiful cartridge amazing performance and gentle recoil, great on deer and even capable on moose as more moose in Scandanavia are taken every year with 6.5 than any other caliber

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Kind of a piggyback off on earlier thread, but am looking to purchase one of these.
I plan on introducing my 12 yr old daughter to hunting next season ( plus that's an easier sell to the wife to get a coyote gun for me !! ) so recoil is an important consideratiion.
My initial thought was 243, but now I'm also thinking 25-06 or 257. I thought maybe one of the wssm's but recoil may be a factor. How would the above 3 compare as far as recoil?
Any suggestions on the best caliber and rifle?
I want to keep it fairly light ( <7lb for sure ) as well as fairly light on the $$$$ so it won't be a Weatherby ultralight unfortunately !!
Thinking maybe a Savage or the MArlin or Mossberg ?

Thanks.

its a shame that savage doesnt have pride in there history because if they did you would have the choice of the 250-3000 !

[Lonnie]

250 sav in a light bolt action or like cat siad 6.5x55 I like 6.5 better as you can get a huge range of bullet wieghts 85gr. to 165gr. but I used a 250 for alot of years h@ll on yotes good deer gun and I've taken elk with it but it definitly is not a good chioce for elk acording to some.

[gatorr]

Get her a .243. With Barnes x bullets it will kill any deer or antelope. Handload it with 55 or 58 grain bullets at over 4000fps you have the perfect coyote rifle, light recoil and very accurate. Dont listen to those guys saying get her a 7mm or a .30 cal. It only takes 1 shot from a caliber too big for her and you just made her a flincher or outright wont want to shoot any more.

[3Dshooter]

.257 Roberts, hands down... my pick. You have to draw the line somewhere in your choices. Considering recoil, noise, bullet weight, etc, etc... My experience with young shooters and my use of this and other cartridges, the line for me falls right on the Roberts. Bring elk into the picture and the 7-08 (very popular right now) and .260 would be at the top of my list.

[thebuckshow]

I agree with whoever said that it was "the noise" that may be the biggest factor. I remember the first time I shot a 20 gauge, I was 6 or 7 and because it made such a bang I was scared that it translated to kick. After getting to shoot it I realized that wasn't the issue. And in no time I got to shoot the old 12 gauge more and more. Until at 12 the 270win came into my life. Same deal, heard the noise and thought, "this thing is going to knock me on my *****!" But once again, with the muffs on and not thinking about it and trying to be brave, I realized that louder "bang" don't mean bigger kick.
Anyways, I would even think up to a 270, of course with very good hearing protection, the noise won't be as big of an issue, and she will just be so excited to be shooting "dad's gun" that the kick will not be a factor. Just my opinion and personal experience anyways, but I personally wouldn't put so much thought into recoil unless you were thinking of starting her in the 300 magnums! Good luck!

[Sask Hunter]

Dude, 6.5 Creedmore. check it out.

Or, if you don't want to pay through your @$$ for ammo, and want to be able to buy it at Moose Country Station instead of specialty shops, .243 will be just fine and will kill anything that has lungs. AAAANNND you can buy Hornady Varmint Express for the rest of the year!!!!!

Seriously, show her Coyote hunting and she'll become a veritable assassin. I discovered it after years of patiently going through the motions of deer hunting, I all I could think of were all those wasted years!!!!

[ram crazy]

I would say go for the 243Win. not much for recoil and the perfect starter rifle. Teacher her how to shoot effectively with good groupings and the right bullet and she will kill a lot of game with a 243Win. My first rifle was a 243Win. and I still use it today on big game. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot at Sheep, Elk, Moose, Deer, Antelope or Bear. I use 100gr. Speer Boattails with 46gr. of 4831 IMR. and in a 3 shot group they are all touching one another.

[North of 53]

There are a lot of good guns and calibers and cartridges out there the trick is to get then all in the same gun. It has been mentioned that be sure you get a gun that fits the shooter well. Having a gun that fits well will make up for a lot of recoil. The caliber I would go with is the 6.5 and the cartridge is 6.5x 55. The only problem with this 6.5 is finding it in a gun that fits and one that does not break the bank.
I had one built on a 700 ADL long action but that takes a fair bit of time and money. I even went with the 6.5 x 55 BJI version but the plain 6.5 x 55 is a great cartridge even better if you had load. I took a deer at 575yards this year with mine and it dropped in its tracks. The gun I built has very little recoil and that is shooting 140 grain bullets at a fairly mild 2850FPS (that's just what this gun happens to like the best). But even if I bump them up to 3000 fps the recoil is still very mild.The factory loads for a 6.5x55 are very mild down around 2600 fps but as a hand loader you could bring them up to 2800 very easily and still have little recoil. The 6.5 x 55 is making a lot of in roads into the north American market and for good reason. It has been shooting a lot of game and winning a lot of target matches in Europe for around a 100 years now.

[duffy4]

Several years ago I was in the same boat. I had a daughter coming to hunting age and a sone not far behind.

I bought a Rem. model 788 in .243 and put a 3 to 9 variable scope on it.

I sighted it in with some 100 grain factory ammo (Federal I believe) and it shot great groups with very little recoil.

My daughter shot a White-tail doe with it. I shot a mule deer doe and a doe antelope. I shot a pretty good white-tail buck that I did not find until two days later. My son shot a doe and then a white-tail buck that we had trouble finding with it. My daughter shot an antelope buck with it and then a great white-tail buck that we had trouble finding.

So you might think that I would recommend the .243. If I had to do it over again I would have gone for a 6.5X55 or a 257 Roberts or a .260 Rem. or maybe even a 7mm-08.

The .243 is in my mind a great coyote cartridge and a marginal deer and pronghorn round. If you are shooting deer or antelope in the open and can wait for the classic standing broadside shot it will kill game pretty well.

We have used Noslers that passed through and left a blood trail. However a number of times we did not use Noslers and there has been little snow and no blood trail and it was hard or not possible to recover a hit critter.

If you want to hunt deer and coyote with one rifle, well that is exactly what the .243 was developed for. I will be using our 788 in .243 as a coyote rifle from now on and getting my daughter something different to hunt deer and pronghorn with. My son has already graduated to a Win. 100 in.308.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Several years ago I was in the same boat. I had a daughter coming to hunting age and a sone not far behind.

I bought a Rem. model 788 in .243 and put a 3 to 9 variable scope on it.

I sighted it in with some 100 grain factory ammo (Federal I believe) and it shot great groups with very little recoil.

My daughter shot a White-tail doe with it. I shot a mule deer doe and a doe antelope. I shot a pretty good white-tail buck that I did not find until two days later. My son shot a doe and then a white-tail buck that we had trouble finding with it. My daughter shot an antelope buck with it and then a great white-tail buck that we had trouble finding.

So you might think that I would recommend the .243. If I had to do it over again I would have gone for a 6.5X55 or a 257 Roberts or a .260 Rem. or maybe even a 7mm-08.

The .243 is in my mind a great coyote cartridge and a marginal deer and pronghorn round. If you are shooting deer or antelope in the open and can wait for the classic standing broadside shot it will kill game pretty well.

We have used Noslers that passed through and left a blood trail. However a number of times we did not use Noslers and there has been little snow and no blood trail and it was hard or not possible to recover a hit critter.

If you want to hunt deer and coyote with one rifle, well that is exactly what the .243 was developed for. I will be using our 788 in .243 as a coyote rifle from now on and getting my daughter something different to hunt deer and pronghorn with. My son has already graduated to a Win. 100 in.308.

Why do you think you had so many difficult ''finds'' for those animals ?
Were they lethal hits?
Is an animal that's lung shot by a 243 going to be difficult to find as opposed to lets say a 7-08?
I understand that there may be less kinetic energy and ''stopping power'' with a 243 but I woulda thought that the animal may travel a little futher but not enough to make a noticeble difference to find them.
I'm thinking deer here....
Interesting and if this is a common finding I think I may up the cal. to .26 or better.

[duffy4]

It has been my experience that animals shot in the chest with a .243 will die fairly quickly but with some bullets there will be no blood trail. Which makes them hard to find under some circumstances.

My daughter shot a doe at the edge of a field and the edge of legal shooting light. It ran into the woods only about 40 yards and piled up under a big spruce with limbs to the ground. The snow had been on the ground over a week and was littered with deer tracks and trail. We walked within probably 4 or 5 yards of that doe on our way into the bush and did not see it. Saw no sign of a hit (other than the reaction of the deer to the shot). Searched randomly through the bush just past where the deer lay and then were about to give up till next morning. While walking out on the same in trail I saw a bit of white under the tree branches and we found the deer.

I may be wrong but I believe something like a 6.5X55 or 7X57 or a 7mm-08
may have penetrated right through and left a splatter of blood and some drops in the snow.

A similar story with two bucks shot with this cartridge.

[jim-bo]

I have found that anything I have hit with a 243 win has fallen down, dead. I have and haven't had pass throughs, and I found that blood trails don't matter when the deer just drops.

Take a 243 win, based on a 308 win (parent case) with is slightly smaller brother 7mm-08. A hit in the vitals is a dead animal, a hit in the guts is a gut shot animal. 308win is .308", 7mm is .284", and a 6mm is .243" We are talking about fractions of an inch and about 50gr. in bullet weights. recoil is heavier on the 308 win vs the 7mm08 and 243 win, but slightly.

A 223 will kill deer, but a 243win is legal... go figure. Less recoil and practise makes for a confident shooter, a confident shooter with a few deer under the belts makes a confident hunter. She has started with a 22lr, move up to a 243 win for a deer rifle for her, and a yote pounder for you. Eventually she will want to move up, then I would look for faster, flatter and heavier: 25-06, 270, 308, 30-06, etc...

I think a 243 win is a great transition caliber for young and inexperenced hunters. And in my experience, and the men I hunt with expereince a very capable deer caliber, it may be light for bigger animals, but can and does take larger game such as Elk and Moose, however this does require accuracy and confidence.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by duffy4

It has been my experience that animals shot in the chest with a .243 will die fairly quickly but with some bullets there will be no blood trail. Which makes them hard to find under some circumstances.

My daughter shot a doe at the edge of a field and the edge of legal shooting light. It ran into the woods only about 40 yards and piled up under a big spruce with limbs to the ground. The snow had been on the ground over a week and was littered with deer tracks and trail. We walked within probably 4 or 5 yards of that doe on our way into the bush and did not see it. Saw no sign of a hit (other than the reaction of the deer to the shot). Searched randomly through the bush just past where the deer lay and then were about to give up till next morning. While walking out on the same in trail I saw a bit of white under the tree branches and we found the deer.

I may be wrong but I believe something like a 6.5X55 or 7X57 or a 7mm-08
may have penetrated right through and left a splatter of blood and some drops in the snow.

A similar story with two bucks shot with this cartridge.

Your situation doesn't seem too abnormal.
I took a deer this year at 200 yrds. Broadside, complete pass thru / lung shot. I watched him run about 50 yards, get wobble legged and pile up.
I walked to where I hit him then to where he laid and did not find 1 drop of blood on the snow. I was using a 300wsm with 180 gr. interbonds.
I don't think it's uncommon when an animal only go's a short distance to not have any bloodtrail.