Game management

[deanmc]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

mother nature generally runs a 80yr. cycle that is along time by our standards and faster than a blink of an eye in the big scheme of things every thing in wild life management must be kept in balance or it all goes to hell real fast(3or4yrs.) and about 80yrs to get back to where we are today.and right now we have allot more predators than what is healthy.

Do you mean the 4 legged predators or the 2 legged ones?

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by deanmc

Do you mean the 4 legged predators or the 2 legged ones?

at the time I was thinking of the 4 legged kind but we probly have way to many 2 legged ones as well. lol

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

It all sounds good on here guys, but back to reality. Truth be told, in the southern HALF of the province you simply cannot farm them out. If any joe gets on something its is getting pounded. We cannot farm w/t and mules in hopes of growth results, good herd structure and herd health. SRD for 15 years has been smoking everything. Weve been watching our herds plummet for a long time, before CWD was even thought of. I could show people where there used to be herds of whitetails, and they were there for YEARS,,, there hasnt been a w/t in those areas now FOR A LONG TIME. P*** poor management for too long has left the south in shambles. And we wonder why there are so many land owner issues. When all these guys cant find a deer in 4 days of hunting, how far do you think they are willing to go when a remnant of our deer population IS found??? We found out in 1 year during the CWD deal that we could use hunters as a MORE than effective way to INSTANTLY drop herd numbers if something catastrophic happened,,, why keep pounding everything AFTER we got numbers into a comfortable level where if something bad happened we could deal with it??? Again, trophys, strong herd structure, and healthy herds are simply unattainable in todays Alberta with our super slammer management. Kill em all...

I dont hunt the south much Pack and dont claim to know anything about it but I did put some hard days this year in a zone near you that many claim isnt worth hunting and is in bad shape and the population there is far from decimated. I dont know what herd numbers were like but I easily saw 300 mule deer a day and many days 50-60 different bucks. Sure I never seen any monsters(one before season) but did see some decent bucks and heard of a few big ones being seen. And ended up getting a pretty good deer in my books.
Also saw a good number of whitetails. Probably could have shot 10-20 4x4 whitetails in 3 days. Again nothing huge but still a decent number of deer.
And of that zone I only covered less than half of it.
Now maybe that is just that zone, maybe all the deer populations have plummeted from the other areas but I sure didnt see it where I was.

Same as where we hunted Antelope. We saw alot of deer. And some really good bucks. Ill be heading down that way for some scouting this year for sure(as long as some survive this winter).

I deffinatly dont agree with the number of tags that they let out as in some zones it has had large effects. I just think some people are going a little extreme with there idea of the population decreases.

SG

[packhuntr]

And that right there is the issue Darcy. Guys come down, see afew animals and everything is good. You have to understand that every zone is different and is up against differing issues, I dont think anyone has overlooked that, but you need to understand that where you were is not nessesarily indicative of whats going on in the next zone over. The problem is that you put yourself into deer country when you came down to look at that zone, now how much of that zone actually contains suitable/sufficient habitat to harbor deer in this day and age? What have harvest rates been and for how long, man theres alot to look at and you need to be there and aware the entire time to know what has taken place, no different than how you guys are fully aware of whats going on in that west country. You say you saw "lots" of deer on your antelope hunt, well what is lots? What should the zone look like, what did it look like when a healthy herd structure existed? Now dont go bringing up a WMU number ok... Most of these zones down here have limited habitat that is capable of containing them, guys immediately extrapolate what they saw to the entire zone, or even the entire south and say there are lots, they saw this many deer one day in such and such place. Its the same thing the ACA and SRD do, fly the best habitat and extrapolate that data across a large parcel or AMA, saying yup, looks good, we have lots!! You cant do that, Im sorry it doesnt work like that.
Edit, do you drive through your horse pasture and say based on what is standing right here, I have this many horses in my treed 1/4??

[duffy4]

packman

Its the same thing the ACA and SRD do, fly the best habitat and extrapolate that data across a large parcel or AMA, saying yup, looks good, we have lots!!

What makes you think it is done that way?

I know that when they fly moose surveys around Rocky, they take in to account the Good, Fair and Poor habitat types. And that goes into the calculations of moose population for that WMU.

If Darcy was seeing good numbers (good by his standards) of deer then it would appear that there has not been a "wreck" in the deer management in that area.

Sometimes what one person thinks are "good deer numbers" is really way too many deer. Then when deer numbers are in a better ratio to the available habitat the person thinks the deer numbers are "way down".


If F&W had more $ to spend on wildlife management they could sure do a better job. But how do we achieve that.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Now dont go bringing up a WMU number ok...

Thank You. That comment right there explains things alot. Another guy that will say what ever to try and keep ouitsiders out.


Do you think guys are idiots. So your trying to say that herds are decimated but only in portions of zones and adjoining zones? Over all the zone I hunted has some of the highest antlered tags available and an average number of antlerless tags. And is doing fine as im pretty sure if I would have covered the rest of the zone and adjoining zones numbers wouldnt have just dropped right off into decimation!
Im sure there are zones that are hurting more than others but the biggest issue that many of you guys have is that you had it really great for a while and now trophy quality is down a little and your actually having to hunt for the big ones.
My heart bleeds for you!
SG

[packhuntr]

Duffy, leaning towards the side of caution would be a good place to start if carrying capacities are not even remotely being breached, and social issues and implications are understood and are not being jeapordized. We all understand that there are limited funds and man power available to work with, so it might seem prudent to some to avoid attempting to concoct exact figures while leaning towards unbelieveably high estimates when they cannot be accurately concluded. It has been brought to my attention that it was 25 years ago that the manner of calculating these estimates and the carrying capacities of these WMU's were devised, yet no one with SRD today is able to explain how or why it is done the way it is done. Unbelievable... Heres some numbers to chew on. 2009, zone 152 preseason estimate for mule deer was 3966 head, the goal was set at 2325 head carrying capacity. Tags were set outrageously high yet again, and yet noone living in this area was capable of showing anyone any more than 350 deer in the entire zone. Think that one through, please. Yes there are some VERY SERIOUS ISSUES. We cannot continue like we are. I do not have the answers, but can say that we are in for one f*** of a wreck if some people dont start doing the job they are publicly funded to do.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Thank You. That comment right there explains things alot. Another guy that will say what ever to try and keep ouitsiders out.


Do you think guys are idiots. So your trying to say that herds are decimated but only in portions of zones and adjoining zones? Over all the zone I hunted has some of the highest antlered tags available and an average number of antlerless tags. And is doing fine as im pretty sure if I would have covered the rest of the zone and adjoining zones numbers wouldnt have just dropped right off into decimation!
Im sure there are zones that are hurting more than others but the biggest issue that many of you guys have is that you had it really great for a while and now trophy quality is down a little and your actually having to hunt for the big ones.
My heart bleeds for you!
SG

Sheepguide, the point is that zones do not matter, I nor anyone I know hunts that zone over Drumheller way, the problem is that you simply do not know what the problems are and now wish to disarm a very serious situation NEEDING attention with your b.s. It is a problem across all of these MU's and is not species specific. If you do not know, seek the information and climb aboard, cause believe me, if you knew, theres only one bus worth getting on, and your chasing the wrong f****** one my man.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Sheepguide, the point is that zones do not matter, I nor anyone I know hunts that zone over Drumheller way, the problem is that you simply do not know what the problems are and now wish to disarm a very serious situation NEEDING attention with your b.s. It is a problem across all of these MU's and is not species specific. If you do not know, seek the information and climb aboard, cause believe me, if you knew, theres only one bus worth getting on, and your chasing the wrong f****** one my man.

Your biggest issue Pack is that you think that your bus is "THE" bus. What you have is your opinion. Maybe you can show me some true numbers? Show us what the population was in relation to what it is now! Show us what the carrying capacity of the land is as you seem to think you know what the population should be there for must have figured out what each area can handle better than anyone else. What kinda buck to doe ratio would be best for that particular population? You talk like you have all the answers but can show nothing but your few short years of opinion!
So unless you can show or proove what that population and habitat can actually handle or what it needs then you sir are on the wrong "f******" bus.

I stated the numbers that I seen to proove that people have different opinion on what a population should be and what is good and bad.

I used to comment on sheep populations the same as you are about deer. I have my opinion as others do also. They used to call me wrong, I used to call them wrong. I learned that in the end it is just an opinion with out solid numbers. No one is wrong or on the wrong "F******" bus unless the facts proove it. So get of you high horse and maybe realize that you arent god of the southern animal herds!


Ill be awaiting your expert numbers.

SG

[duffy4]

Pack

I'm sure you have good intentions and would like to see things the way you think they should be.

But it seems to me you have a really hard time expressing what you are really thinking. And you can't understand why many of us just don't understand.

When you make a post just sit and read it first pretending you are someone else who is reading it. Before you hit submit.

[shedcrazy]

Pack,

I get your passionate but so do many others and some might not agree with what your saying... It doesn't make them wrong. You have some valid points but you also have some incorrect info.

Its the same thing the ACA and SRD do, fly the best habitat and extrapolate that data across a large parcel or AMA, saying yup, looks good, we have lots!! You cant do that, Im sorry it doesnt work like that.

This statement is completely wrong. You have no idea how an aerial survey is conducted if that is what you "think" happens. When you post info like that it takes away from the rest of your statements. I can't even imagine you think that happens.

The Protocols for ungulate surveys are online and there are many types but most are based on flying transects (grid lines of the WMU or study block). In my 10 yrs of helping fly surveys we have flown study blocks (high, mid low habitat blocks), whole WMUs with 25% coverage, 50% coverage and 100% coverage . All are flown with fixed wing, 100m above the animals and on standard flight lines. There is unbiased surveying going on, animals in the habitat I survey in are easy to identify (can you identify something at 100m???) and count. It is impossible for a survey to get 3000+ animals and then there are only 350 animals...Sorry that is just false info. Surveying from the ground is the biased method not the aerial survey.
Hunters just don't see all the aimals in the zone no matter how good they think they know it.
Camp Wx is a prime example and one I know well. Everyone on here complains about the amount of deer in the base. Well two weeks after the season the population estimate is 4600 deer after we surveyed it from the air. It is more than double the amount it was 20yrs ago. That is the info wildlife managers have to work with..the unbaised surveys.
The problem in this province is that very few WMUs get flown and there is outdated data out there. I am sure every field staff you talk to with SRD will agree. They are asking for the funding and not getting.
Maybe instead of AO users bitching to each other all the time over petty things maybe we as outdoorsman should write some letters to our governments to get out natural resources taken seriously. But to do that we should discuss facts and numbers.
Funding is going to be huge in the next decade and it will affect our passions the most. Aerial surveys have been reduced, field staff isn't being replaced and special hunts like Camp Wx will be a thing of the past we we don't start writting to the right people and not just here on AO.

[Pudelpointer]

Good post Shed.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That is a good point!

Kathline Marquart really goes into the economics and impacts of food production in her book Animal Scam. She even breaks it down to the number of animals killed by transport trucks hauling food for non consumers of wildlife.

This book will be must read for me.

Thanks Sheephunter.

[bb356]

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

Sheep hunter, six does seems a little exsive for meet purposes unless you have six kids. Maybe you can answer your own question in your artical in AO, "where have all the mule deer gone". I suspect you and other managers have contributed to there vanishing act in zone 359.

big winter kill in that area 06.........plus bad management.......they keep issuing multiple doe tags for a zone that once was a prime mulie wmu !!!

[surhuntsalot]

Personally I feel there is a greater chance of a Liberal government aboloshing the Gun Registry, than there is the chance of Alberta SRD coming up with a sound game management plan...

On the bright side... In leiu of the undoubted winterkill, I'm sure we can now count on at least double last years antelope allocations, and an increase in the allowable harvest of deer throughout the province...

[packhuntr]

I guess at the end of the day anyone caught speaking out about obvious issues is nothing more than crazy and are quite simply mistaken/wrong. Cant wait to see what the harvest rates are this year boys!! Kill em all! Oh and before I forget, THANKYOU and GOOD JOB!!

[shedcrazy]

Pack,

I am confused from your post. Like I said I understand your passion...I feel the same way about wildlife. No one is calling anyone crazy. I am stating the method in which you think aerial surveys are conducted is wrong. If you disagree with me that is fine but I am pretty sure I have conducted a few more surveys than you.

I would suggest you talk to your local Bio and see if you can't help out with a survey. But I got a feeling you probably told him off or commented like your last post and you might not be high on his list.

Game management is a tough job and can always improve but you need to bring more to the debate than rants.
I am sure you could bring alot to the table but you need to relax a bit!!

[KegRiver]

My thought on game management is, I leave it to the professionals.
I don't know the population dynamics of the game I hunt, and I don't have the time or resources to research it.
In my opinion, that leaves me no alternative but to trust those who can and do.

[RayM77]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

My thought on game management is, I leave it to the professionals.
I don't know the population dynamics of the game I hunt, and I don't have the time or resources to research it.
In my opinion, that leaves me no alternative but to trust those who can and do.

That is the whole problem. Are a lot of people blindly trusting that the srd is on top of things so if they say to kill three does thats the right thing to do? From the results of this thread it seems like srd does not have the time or money to stay current on what is going on in a lot of zones. I think that it is our responsibility to step back and not harvest everything that you can get a tag for if you are not seeing the nubers of animals out there.

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

That is the whole problem. Are a lot of people blindly trusting that the srd is on top of things so if they say to kill three does thats the right thing to do? From the results of this thread it seems like srd does not have the time or money to stay current on what is going on in a lot of zones. I think that it is our responsibility to step back and not harvest everything that you can get a tag for if you are not seeing the nubers of animals out there.

So you are saying that average hunters with no training in wild ungulate management are better able to manage our game populations than trained professionals? Come on. I totally agree that SRD does not always get it right and are sometimes slow to react but once we start relying on armchair management in this province, I think our game populations are doomed. If you don't want to fill your three tags that's totally your right but I don't see a need to denegrate anyone that does.....because most often, it is the right thing to do.

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I totally agree that SRD does not always get it right and are sometimes slow to react

It may just be my opinion, but the need for Biologists is greatly increased when Fish & Wildlife populations are in trouble. In a time where SRD is greatly underfunded, and any jobs deemed "Not Necessary" are quickly axed, do you think that some of these decisions may be made more out the thought of Job Security rather than whts best for our wildlife populations ? If our wildlife populations are doing great, it is a lot tougher to justify spending the $$$ to moniter it... Hence the concept that "Influx = Work"...

Armchair Quarterbacking... Maybe.... But when people (hunters and landowners) out on the frontlines can see something as obvious as a severe winterkill, and then see how multiple supplimental tags are continued as if no winterkill had occured, I have to question if there are other motives in the decision making...

I like to think more of our province's dedicated bios.

[KegRiver]

First off, I haven't taken any animal in a few years. Second I never was one to buy every tag possible or every tag I "thought" I could fill.

Second, if SRD can't gather the information necessary to make a informed decisions how do you expect an average hunter to?

Furthermore, I don't blindly trust anyone or anything on this earth.
I do what I can to keep informed. But I am also intelligent enough to realize that with the time I have available and my resources I simply can't know enough to second guess SRD decisions of this nature.
And finally, how does leaving such decisions to those who have the training, resources, and time, or at least a whole lot more then I do, present a problem.

Are you suggesting that uninformed people could or would make better decisions then SRD? If so, why? Do you believe that SRD are so incompetent or corrupt that any decision is better then their decisions?

Or do you think hunters should run the game management in this province?
It doesn't take a genius to see how that would turn out.

Yeah I know, I sound a bit testy. Fact is I don't think most hunters know enough to make an informed decision on game management, and I don't know of any diplomatic way to say that.

Besides, I have learned the hard way that, on this site, no matter what one says, there is always half a dozen or so self appointed experts who think they know better. I have found that anything less then firing both barrels only leads to arguments.
Hope the majority understand, I don't aim this at them. Just at the few perfect, all knowing, done it all, fools we do encounter so often, on this site.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

My thought on game management is, I leave it to the professionals.
I don't know the population dynamics of the game I hunt, and I don't have the time or resources to research it.
In my opinion, that leaves me no alternative but to trust those who can and do.

That's where I am.

We can all chime in on whether herds should be managed for overall numbers or for "trophy quality". I've got my own irrelevant thoughts on that, but as for pure numbers I've always thought individual "I've seen plenty of animal X out there!" comments weren't what you would want to base regulation or policy on. I don't have the stats to dispute SRD.

[surhuntsalot]

Not claiming to "Know It All"... rather going on a "Trust But Verify" concept...

I think it is alright to Question how and why things are the way they are. If things always go unquestioned, thats when things can become unaccountable...

An easy one for example...

A few years ago when there was a severe winterkill in the Peace Country, and claims reported of up to 80% in some areas, licences alloted went virtually unchanged. Does this mean the winterkill wasn't that sever ? Was the original amount of tags much lower than it could have been ? Did someone drop the ball and forget to reduce the amount of tags given out ?

Someone can still care about our wildlife and not adopt the "Yes Dear" mentality to everything that the Govt. does. It's not that some of us "Know It All" , but rather that we Question in the quest to know more...

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

Someone can still care about our wildlife and not adopt the "Yes Dear" mentality to everything that the Govt. does. It's not that some of us "Know It All" , but rather that we Question in the quest to know more...

Totally agree but that's a bit different than taking management into your own hands or insinuating that bios might be fixing the numbers. I think the one downfall we have in this province is bios not relying more on anecdotal evidence of those that routinely observe animals. Always good to question...accusing or taking matters into your own hands not so much.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

Not claiming to "Know It All"... rather going on a "Trust But Verify" concept...

I think it is alright to Question how and why things are the way they are. If things always go unquestioned, thats when things can become unaccountable...

An easy one for example...

A few years ago when there was a severe winterkill in the Peace Country, and claims reported of up to 80% in some areas, licences alloted went virtually unchanged. Does this mean the winterkill wasn't that sever ? Was the original amount of tags much lower than it could have been ? Did someone drop the ball and forget to reduce the amount of tags given out ?

Someone can still care about our wildlife and not adopt the "Yes Dear" mentality to everything that the Govt. does. It's not that some of us "Know It All" , but rather that we Question in the quest to know more...

I'm glad you brought that winter kill year up. That was what, about six years ago. I remember find over a dozen dead deer close to home that year.
I wondered if maybe there would be restrictions or no tag at all available in the fall.
But come fall nothing had changed in the tags available or the season length. I bought my tags and I went hunting. To my surprise there seemed to be just as many Deer as there were the year before.

Sure question. Wonder, research, find out, all those are good things, if one has the time or resources. I like to stay informed. But I'm not going to jump on any bandwagon just because someone says there is a problem with whatever.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

and not adopt the "Yes Dear" mentality to everything that the Govt. does. It's not that some of us "Know It All" , but rather that we Question in the quest to know more...

And it's not that some of us are mindless lackeys as you terminology suggests.

"Yes Dear" mentality to everything that the Govt. does.

I wonder if, maybe wording that differently would result in you finding out that we actually agree on this subject?

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

And it's not that some of us are mindless lackeys as you terminology suggests.

I was not suggesting that anyone was mindless, but rather trying to make the point in my defense that just because someone questions the way things are , that does not make them a Know It All... just that they might want to know more....

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

I was not suggesting that anyone was mindless, but rather trying to make the point in my defense that just because someone questions the way things are , that does not make them a Know It All... just that they might want to know more....

That's what I suspected. And I do agree. It is good to ask, learn, be interested in, get informed.

I do my best. Yet, I realize that what I know is only a small part of the whole story. As with the winter die off. To me it looked like there would be few Deer left come fall. In truth, the dead were only a small fraction of the population as I could see when fall came around.

Yes I do my best to keep informed, I think it is a good idea for all users of the outdoors to keep as informed as possible.

But to think that one can second guess those who we pay to make decisions of that nature, is a very slippery slope indeed.

I believe that if one could learn what motivates Anti Hunters and such, if one could find where they started on that path, I believe that one would find that it was the belief that they know more then those who are paid to know.

That must be weighed against the fact that sometimes the professionals do get it wrong and sometime do work off a private agenda.

In this particular case, I don't believe that is the case. Rather I think they are doing the best they can with limited support and limited resources.
From my point of view, even with that they are better suited to making wildlife management decisions then I am.

Perhaps you have more training and better resources then I do. If so, then it may well be that you are in a position to know better then the SRD people.
I have no problem with that. It is after all, it is your cross to bear.
As for me, that is not my situation. I have my own cross to bear.