30 minutes then the Americans turn all the lights out

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Very true. Even Sarah Palin admitted that when they needed health care they had traveled to Canada.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_490080.html

Rather than go to an American hospital she went to one in Canada. Likely she was not charged.

This is funny. What you fail to mention is that Palins use Cdn healthcare was of geographical convenience. AND it was during her first 5 years of life. Can't really hang her choice of healthcare on her when she was 5.

My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse. Believe it or not – this was in the ‘60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rugatika

This is funny. What you fail to mention is that Palins use Cdn healthcare was of geographical convenience. AND it was during her first 5 years of life. Can't really hang her choice of healthcare on her when she was 5.

My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse. Believe it or not – this was in the ‘60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada.

Why not use the US system in Skagway?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bison

Obviously you never needed it.

My Wife is often very dizzy ..took about 9 months to get a car scan to figger out she has a blocked return artery in her neck but her docter said it is not deemed life threatening (just yet)Wife demanded to see a specialist,.yep after 3 months of nagging the preliminary date is set for march 29- 014.
In the meantime wife is flopping on the floor like a landed fish.

BTW wife has struggled with BM's for the last 12 years,..doctors solution,,take exlax daily!!!.
Oh jeah,..Canadian health care is working pretty good and it is free,..when you're healthy!

For one thing...I've worked in health with DND for the last 28 years.
That gives me a fairly good and broad based understanding of health care across Canada as we often refer our people to the civilian sector.
I've worked or liased with health care systems in a number of provinces and countries including the US military and individual states systems.

Actually I did use ours myself last year when I had a heart attack in the middle of nowhere.

They found a plane in a snow storm, a plow driver to clear a runway and the one drug that could save my life at a small emergency that had actually closed 10 minutes earlier...they snatched the doctor as she was headed to her car.
That drug was there despite the fact that it had never been used at that small hospital before.
A drug...trialed at the U of A only a few years ago I might add.

Then I was put up in a private room...with wonderful nurses that kept an eye on me round the clock till I stabilized...I had an angiogram within 24 hours and when I was released I was put into a 3 month rehab program that has no doubt extended my life.
Within that program I had access to a number of specialists and a case managed that made sure that I recieved the individualized care that I needed.

It was a very positive experience and to be honest..I cannot find a single thing about the whole episode that I could find fault in...except perhaps that a small town emerg would not be open for 24 hours.

I agree that it could be better but... what could be better?
It would cost us to improve things and pesonnaly I support that keeping mind that it does not need to cost us what it costs folks in the states.

Now... back to your situation.

What did the doctors in the states say?
When will your wife have her surgery?
What was their diagnosis for her bowel problem?
What will it cost you?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by connexion123

A mob forms...

War vets. Not a mob.

A mob resisting tyranny. Like the ghetto Jews who stood up?

The US is starting to bubble...how long till a full boil?

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

Stasi.

The group that zero'd in on and surrounded those cops was a mob.
An angrey mob.

And likely the exception to the rule.
I suspect most vets had the personal discipline to carry on with their protest...ignoring those who decided to try to sway opinion by creating a conflict that did not exist.

All I saw was a bunch of goofs trying to bait the police.

The same sort of thing a few people did during protests here.

Ironically when that happened at occupy protest etc...our most conservative members had no problem labelling all that were at those protests as unemployed bums and drug users.

Its funny how some people will change their perception of something in spite of the obvious.

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/is-obam...says-1.1483348

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rugatika

This is funny. What you fail to mention is that Palins use Cdn healthcare was of geographical convenience. AND it was during her first 5 years of life. Can't really hang her choice of healthcare on her when she was 5.

My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse. Believe it or not – this was in the ‘60s – we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada.

IIRC she actually admitted that they regularly used it ... her whole family...including for her kids.

But rather than argue about that one example...why not address the larger question?

Fact is...we know darn well that American coming here for health care is far more common than the reverse.
In fact... it is something that poses a bit of a problem for us to the extent that our customs folks must be on guard for to screen people trying to enter Canada.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by TBD

__________________________________________________ _____

Most people have no idea (incl yourself) what they are paying in Canada for Health Care (HC) ....

http://www.carp.ca/2012/09/21/the-tr...of-healthcare/


excerpt .... The report calculated that 24.3% of tax revenues in Canada was spent on healthcare and used that percentage to determine what portion of the taxes we each pay was used to fund health care – the “public health insurance premium”. So then, for 2012, “the estimated average payment for public health care… ranges from $3,418 to $11,401”

Off course, because of Canada's progressive tax system ....

“The 10 per cent of Canadian families with the lowest incomes will pay an average of about $487 for public health care insurance in 2012. The 10 per cent of Canadian families who earn an average income of $55,271 will pay an average of $5,285 for public health care insurance, and the families among the top 10 per cent of income earners in Canada will pay $32,628.”

How much are families paying in the United States ?


A new Forbes report forecasts ... Obama Care Will Increase Health Spending By $7,450 For A Typical Family of Four.

As for O'bama; rather than tell Americans the truth that they’d have to pay more and that the extra price was worth it, HE promised the ultimate free lunch.

"we’ll cover 30 million uninsured AND the typical family will see their premiums go down by $2500 per year !"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...amily-of-four/

Complete lies ....



Really .8 in 100K -- Pollution / population density




A Major problem with the US system is that roughly a billion per year gets stolen by the socialists (liberal) admin / insurance types imbedded within the system

The best lies contain a grain of truth.

You left out the part that stated that it would be even worse if we adopted the US system.


Thanks for the reminder of why you should and once again will be ignored.

[bison]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

For one thing...I've worked in health with DND for the last 28 years.
That gives me a fairly good and broad based understanding of health care across Canada as we often refer our people to the civilian sector.
I've worked or liased with health care systems in a number of provinces and countries including the US military and individual states systems.

Actually I did use ours myself last year when I had a heart attack in the middle of nowhere.

They found a plane in a snow storm, a plow driver to clear a runway and the one drug that could save my life at a small emergency that had actually closed 10 minutes earlier...they snatched the doctor as she was headed to her car.
That drug was there despite the fact that it had never been used at that small hospital before.
A drug...trialed at the U of A only a few years ago I might add.

Then I was put up in a private room...with wonderful nurses that kept an eye on me round the clock till I stabilized...I had an angiogram within 24 hours and when I was released I was put into a 3 month rehab program that has no doubt extended my life.
Within that program I had access to a number of specialists and a case managed that made sure that I recieved the individualized care that I needed.

It was a very positive experience and to be honest..I cannot find a single thing about the whole episode that I could find fault in...except perhaps that a small town emerg would not be open for 24 hours.

I agree that it could be better but... what could be better?
It would cost us to improve things and pesonnaly I support that keeping mind that it does not need to cost us what it costs folks in the states.

Now... back to your situation.

What did the doctors in the states say?... we did not go that route

When will your wife have her surgery?....That depends on what the specialist says after the consultation in march

What was their diagnosis for her bowel problem?She never got diagnosed properly, they keep kicking the ball down the road and don't want to open her up to have a look see,...take exlax exlax exlax,yet she was/is never constipated, she been on it for 6 years till she could'nt sh1t at all. I been searching the internet for something to help her and found it with "Poopdog" Her life is much better now.

What will it cost you?

Nothing yet financially( no fix no pay) but the emotional cost is been high

I said in a former post, Canadian healthcare works wonderfull if you near death,.. but not always though.I know of a guy that got his hips crushed under a falling post pounder mast in 2012,he was taken to Peace River hospital for first aid but he deteriorated after a couple hours
Nobody caught on that he was bleeding out internally trough a burst aorta in his hip till it was to late, he died enroute to Edmonton.

[TBD]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

The best lies contain a grain of truth.

You left out the part that stated that it would be even worse if we adopted the US system.

So - NO. .... I didn't leave out any part


As per usual you’ve strayed off topic and are trying to introduce some new factor you can argue in the hopes we'll go there and you can shift the basis of this debate and somehow (in your mind) appear correct.

This whole discussion centred around the democrats unwillingness to negotiate with the republicans RE obamaCare ..... and the debt crisis they’ve created. We we’re discussing the pros and cons of obamaCare and I believe your now trying to compare it to Canada’s HealthCare system ( which is not the same ) and at the same time label other members opinions ( who are against O'bamaCare ) as somehow UN Canadian and in row with teabaggers and neo-cons ! (Pesky you are a piece of work – I’ll say that for ya)


Back on Topic .....


FACT – O’bama sold this as a system that would offer Health Care to millions more Americans and cost the population as a whole LESS.

.... All noteworthy economists are projecting ten of thousands more in premiums per family per year

FACT – Republicans are standing their ground in the House trying to negotiate a better deal for Americans and delay this insanity.

..... while democrats hold the American Economy for ransom in the hopes they'll blackmail republicans into voting to fund O’bama Cares implementation.


Pesky I have a news FLASH – you LOST the debate and trying to morph this into a discussion of whether Canadians should adopt an American Health Care system IS A JOKE !

.... you give the expression “muddy the waters” new meaning !


TBD


PS .... where did you say you worked again, the ministry of truth in oceania ?


PPS ... I will not waste another sec of my lovely familys thanks giving addressing your drivel - Pls put me back on your ignore list !

[marxman]

Originally Posted by TBD

A Major problem with the US system is that roughly a billion per year gets stolen by the socialists (liberal) admin / insurance types imbedded within the system

blame the lefties thats just too stupid

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bison

Nothing yet financially( no fix no pay) but the emotional cost is been high

I said in a former post, Canadian healthcare works wonderfull if you near death,.. but not always though.I know of a guy that got his hips crushed under a falling post pounder mast in 2012,he was taken to Peace River hospital for first aid but he deteriorated after a couple hours
Nobody caught on that he was bleeding out internally trough a burst aorta in his hip till it was to late, he died enroute to Edmonton.

Bison.

If your friend died of a ruptured aorta he was lucky to make it to the hospital period.

It is not in the hip...its the main blood supply to the heart and to be fair...if that goes and you lnad on an operting table with staff standing by...survival is pretty iffy at best.

If it was a femoral artery in his hip... again... that is pretty dicey and the help needed would be more extensive than one might expect outside of a major mediocal centre...regardless of what country it happened in.

O am sorry for your loss.

But...back to your situation.


You claimed a lot of things in your last post yet... you have no terms of reference to support them.

You have not accessed the American system because of cost.
At least here... you were able to access the help needed so far and there is an expectation that you will recieve more...in the way of surgery when appropriate.
Further...you have nothing to base your suggestion that American healthcare would have arrived at different diagnosis or presented you with different or better options.

Fact is...its starting to look like a man who is very concerned and worried about his wife is grasping at straw and lashing out against a system.
And...I undertsnd that...its perfectly human of you to do that.

However...it should not be the basis of condemning a system in favour of another when you really have no experience in one...and admittedly cannot afford to use it.

Imagine that you were in the states pre- this new health care initiative.

There is agood chance that you and your wife would be either homeless now as a result of the cost or that she might be in even worse shape as sresult of bing denied health care because of a pre-existing condition.

Honestly...if you think about this... you will see that what you are argueing for... would likely have placed you both in a worse postion than what you are argueing against.

[Big Daddy Badger]

OOPS...looks like those Vets are less upset woith the police than with the teabaggers that highjacked their peaceful protest and turned it into a pitty party.

http://www.politicususa.com/2013/10/...tea-party.html

Hmmmm...sounds like maybe the Vets and the police were on the receiving end of some disrespectful and manipulative folks... led by our hero's Cruz and Palin.... while flying Dixie no less.

Brilliant.

The GOP has sure come a long way since Ike and Lincon.

Maybe they should try looking back once in awhile.
They might see the damage left by folks like that and try to do somethiung to mend it.

Instead swayed by extremists they forge ahead on leaving a wake of destruction in theor path that leads straight to that party.

Wow...

And the moxy of a man that orchestrated the shutdown...who restated that he would not compromise...actually protesting the shutdown alongside a large group of people that his efforts will and have screwed.

The man has no shame.

http://www.politicususa.com/2013/10/...tea-party.html

[bison]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

Bison.

If your friend died of a ruptured aorta he was lucky to make it to the hospital period.

It is not in the hip...its the main blood supply to the heart and to be fair...if that goes and you lnad on an operting table with staff standing by...survival is pretty iffy at best.

If it was a femoral artery in his hip... again... that is pretty dicey and the help needed would be more extensive than one might expect outside of a major mediocal centre...regardless of what country it happened in.

O am sorry for your loss.

But...back to your situation.


You claimed a lot of things in your last post yet... you have no terms of reference to support them.

You have not accessed the American system because of cost.
At least here... you were able to access the help needed so far and there is an expectation that you will recieve more...in the way of surgery when appropriate.
Further...you have nothing to base your suggestion that American healthcare would have arrived at different diagnosis or presented you with different or better options.

Fact is...its starting to look like a man who is very concerned and worried about his wife is grasping at straw and lashing out against a system.
And...I undertsnd that...its perfectly human of you to do that.

However...it should not be the basis of condemning a system in favour of another when you really have no experience in one...and admittedly cannot afford to use it.

Imagine that you were in the states pre- this new health care initiative.

There is agood chance that you and your wife would be either homeless now as a result of the cost or that she might be in even worse shape as sresult of bing denied health care because of a pre-existing condition.

Honestly...if you think about this... you will see that what you are argueing for... would likely have placed you both in a worse postion than what you are argueing against.

Big Badger you can argue all you want, Health care here in Alberta might be "free", bottom line is my wife has some health issues that is not being dealt with properly which is as good as no health care at all.

Yeah , Buddy(not really, just a guy i knew) had a tear in his femoral aorta/artery whatever, been bleeding out for 3 hours in PR hospital before they found out...Me thinks there was time enough to send them off to Edmonton by plane had there been a knowledgeable doctor there instead of dopes like my Wife has as doctor .

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by marxman

blame the lefties thats just too stupid

I had to laugh at this statement. The US democrats are to the right of our conservatives in Canada. In the US it is true... Harper would be considered a liberal.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by bison

Big Badger you can argue all you want, Health care here in Alberta might be "free", bottom line is my wife has some health issues that is not being dealt with properly which is as good as no health care at all.

Yeah , Buddy(not really, just a guy i knew) had a tear in his femoral aorta/artery whatever, been bleeding out for 3 hours in PR hospital before they found out...Me thinks there was time enough to send them off to Edmonton by plane had there been a knowledgeable doctor there instead of dopes like my Wife has as doctor .

In any system where people are involved human error and mistakes can be made. Ultimately everyone needs to be smart and aware of options and always be proactive. Sorry you had trouble. My family has had great care all my life. Within 2 hours of being diagnosed with appendicitis at a medicentre I was under the knife at my local hospital.

What is important to remember in the US 40% have no insurance coverage and lose everything to get treatment.

[TBD]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I had to laugh at this statement. The US democrats are to the right of our conservatives in Canada. In the US it is true... Harper would be considered a liberal.

more like left of our liberals .... (the chretian liebranos for sure) !

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/14/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

Maybe the thread ends tomorrow.

Or maybe both sides continue to

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

What is important to remember in the US 40% have no insurance coverage and lose everything to get treatment.

What IS really important to remember is where do you get your numbers??


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us...gain.html?_r=0

[chasingtail]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I had to laugh at this statement. The US democrats are to the right of our conservatives in Canada. In the US it is true... Harper would be considered a liberal.

Harper more of a Liberal then Obama?, I don't think so!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rugatika

What IS really important to remember is where do you get your numbers??


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/us...gain.html?_r=0

Will look for link. It took into account all the issues with pre-existing conditions being excluded. Many have that and if it comes back they don't have coverage. 48 million people not having any healthcare coverage could very easily erode the mortality rate in the US.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

Harper more of a Liberal then Obama?, I don't think so!

On the political spectrum he is left of Obama. US has always been further to the right politically than Canada.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

On the political spectrum he is left of Obama. US has always been further to the right politically than Canada.

It always gets to be a bit of a jumble when you start trying to measure left or right. Fiscally? Socially? etc. In the case of Harper and Obama though, there is no way Harper is to the left of Obama. Obama is a hardcore abortion supporter, gay rights, big government, tax the rich, take away guns, gov't intrusion, smokes pot, snorts coke, likes rap, and so on. I don't think there is a single issue where you could say Obama is to the right of Harper.


And I'm not sure about the US being to the right of Canada anymore. Traditionally, yes. But these last couple elections have been pretty left wing dominated elections for the most part. Time will tell if it's a trend they follow or not, but right now, everyone sure seems to be grooving on the Obama phones, food stamps (ebt cards or whatever), etc etc/

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bison

Big Badger you can argue all you want, Health care here in Alberta might be "free", bottom line is my wife has some health issues that is not being dealt with properly which is as good as no health care at all.

Yeah , Buddy(not really, just a guy i knew) had a tear in his femoral aorta/artery whatever, been bleeding out for 3 hours in PR hospital before they found out...Me thinks there was time enough to send them off to Edmonton by plane had there been a knowledgeable doctor there instead of dopes like my Wife has as doctor .

3 hours after a crush injury it must have been seeping.
That artery is about as big around as your thumb.
I hate to try second guessing on that but it might be that it ruptured worse when they finally did move him....lots of sharp bones were likely floating about.

Again...I do empathize with your plight but... like i said earlier... you might very well find the same issues elsewhere or a new set of problems that are just as bad or worse.

I'd say that your particular experience in this case it sucks but that it is not fair to condemn a whole system for that or to assume it would be better in a system that you have not even accessed yet.

Its pure speculationa at this point.

You definatley know the situation for your missus sucks but you do not know that iot would be better anywhere else. or that it really could be better here without undue risk.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

All the best...I hope it works out for you folks.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

In any system where people are involved human error and mistakes can be made. Ultimately everyone needs to be smart and aware of options and always be proactive. Sorry you had trouble. My family has had great care all my life. Within 2 hours of being diagnosed with appendicitis at a medicentre I was under the knife at my local hospital.

What is important to remember in the US 40% have no insurance coverage and lose everything to get treatment.

Its also important to remember that if his wife showed up with here pre-existing conditions.... most insurance providers would have refused to cover her....so... there would be zero coverage that they couldn't pay for except...emergency aka life or limb saving service.
And then...it would be bare bones...nothing fancy and the cheapest route.

[Red Bullets]

Regarding the political satire from earlier in the thread....You are talking about this Obama, right?

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

Regarding the political satire from earlier in the thread....You are talking about this Obama, right?

Who knows there seems to be 3 of them running around.
The Republican version...the Democrate version and the real McCoy.

The pundits are so busy on both sides of it that you can't keep track of what dumb azz things Palin actually said or how many puppies Obama has really kicked.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by rugatika

It always gets to be a bit of a jumble when you start trying to measure left or right. Fiscally? Socially? etc. In the case of Harper and Obama though, there is no way Harper is to the left of Obama. Obama is a hardcore abortion supporter, gay rights, big government, tax the rich, take away guns, gov't intrusion, smokes pot, snorts coke, likes rap, and so on. I don't think there is a single issue where you could say Obama is to the right of Harper.


And I'm not sure about the US being to the right of Canada anymore. Traditionally, yes. But these last couple elections have been pretty left wing dominated elections for the most part. Time will tell if it's a trend they follow or not, but right now, everyone sure seems to be grooving on the Obama phones, food stamps (ebt cards or whatever), etc etc/

I know what you are saying but fundmentally there is a much deeper and broader social net in Canada including Healthcare that Harper as a Conservative Canadian agrees with yet you would never get approval for in the US.

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24528904

It is important to note that every consecutive government in the US... Republicans or Democrats have been equally complicite in racking up the debt.

Some may argue it is worse recently but if you normalized it to remove the effects of a massive recession likely it would be no different.

[rhuntley12]

Originally Posted by bison

Nothing yet financially( no fix no pay) but the emotional cost is been high

I said in a former post, Canadian healthcare works wonderfull if you near death,.. but not always though.I know of a guy that got his hips crushed under a falling post pounder mast in 2012,he was taken to Peace River hospital for first aid but he deteriorated after a couple hours
Nobody caught on that he was bleeding out internally trough a burst aorta in his hip till it was to late, he died enroute to Edmonton.

My sister in law had her stomach staples to her skin when they closed her up after a C section, she had problems for years before they finally figured it out. This is in the US.

My mom who has rheumatoid athritis actually had the drug company donating her medication to her as her case was so advanced, there was no way they could afford the medicine nor can she get insurance.

My brother also got a screwdriver through his hand and wouldn't go to the hospital because it would cost so much.. This is all in the US.

There are way worse stories out there. You will get them in Canada and in the US. I have experienced both healthcare systems and I wouldn't trade ours at all.

I remembe waiting in the emergency room with a busted up nose for about 2 hours at around 2AM to be given a couple asprin and told I'd have to go elsewhere for care. My insurance was billed over a thousand for that.

[rhuntley12]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24528904

It is important to note that every consecutive government in the US... Republicans or Democrats have been equally complicite in racking up the debt.

Some may argue it is worse recently but if you normalized it to remove the effects of a massive recession likely it would be no different.

I keep hearing Democrats are all for big government, but I sure don't see the government ever shrinking when they aren't in power.

Nor do I see the debt shrinking.

Take out the religious aspects of each party and they are one and the same.