Occupy Calgary: SERIOUSLY!!??

[Sundancefisher]

The 53% of the country that pays taxes of which the majority is not approving of squatters on public lands...gave a record $8.3 billion dollars to charity in 2010.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Good_New.../19069791.html

Working hard...working smarter...researching and planning a career is the way to improve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Whining and complaining in a tent...shows a total disregard for work ethic and promotes a love of entitlement.

When will Calgary boot them?

[pogo]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

The occupations will end when everyone stops talking about them. The fact we have a thread about them gives them significance. Let this thread DIE.

The thread never had any life.

The ignorant views expressed are hardly new, and parallel those of the past. Simple views that were the impetus for Steinbeck's novel.

[rugatika]

I want to see how long they can hold on. Go occupiers!! Besides, they're fun to make fun of. Just like Steinbeck advocated in his book on page 55.

I really don't get the connection between the occupiers and the Joads. The Joads were hard working farmers down on their luck, caught up in the dust bowl of the 30's. The occupiers are lazy socialist entitlement pukes living in one of the most bountiful times and provinces. http://www.theprovince.com/business/...megadrop_story
h/t smalldeadanimals.com

Given that the Joads were moving across an entire country for work, I find it kinda weird that you would compare them to the occupiers who won't even move within a province for work.

[pogo]

Originally Posted by rugatika

The occupiers are lazy socialist entitlement pukes living in one of the most bountiful times and provinces.

Given that the Joads were moving across an entire country for work, I find it kinda weird that you would compare them to the occupiers who won't even move within a province for work.

Good on ya, Rug, for giving some thought to it. Not sure where you got your information about the "Occupiers", but they aren't all like you said. The most inspired ones are very forward looking and have genuine and real concerns, apprehensions and fears about where "we" are heading. And I have to agree with them. Just because things look all rosy from your (and many others) perspective living on the "Keene Ranch", figuratively speaking, doesn't mean that all is well with the country and mankind.

The hard times illustrated so dramatically well in Steinbeck's novel were very, very real. Those times are never far from coming around again. If you've ever had the chance to speak with anyone who lived through those times, you could see how easily it can happen. Most, if not all, are dead now. There is only one person I know who lived through those times as an adult, my uncle, who turns 107 years old this year.

Did you go down to speak with the "Occupiers" yourself? They are "results". Not "causes"..................think about that!

Cheers.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by pogo

Good on ya, Rug, for giving some thought to it. Not sure where you got your information about the "Occupiers", but they aren't all like you said. The most inspired ones are very forward looking and have genuine and real concerns, apprehensions and fears about where "we" are heading. And I have to agree with them. Just because things look all rosy from your (and many others) perspective living on the "Keene Ranch", figuratively speaking, doesn't mean that all is well with the country and mankind.

The hard times illustrated so dramatically well in Steinbeck's novel were very, very real. Those times are never far from coming around again. If you've ever had the chance to speak with anyone who lived through those times, you could see how easily it can happen. Most, if not all, are dead now. There is only one person I know who lived through those times as an adult, my uncle, who turns 107 years old this year.

Did you go down to speak with the "Occupiers" yourself? They are "results". Not "causes"..................think about that!

Cheers.

All my grandparents lived through the dirty 30's. And it even colors how my mom lives to this day even though she wasn't born yet. I have heard lots of stories of those times. They worked through them on the farm and survived with what little they had.

There are indeed tough times ahead. One need look no further than the financial house our governments have built for us (at our behest I might add). Every western country is in dire straits...and the reason for it is a bloated social welfare program. Now, I haven't talked to any of the occupiers, but I have seen their signs, listened to their leaders, and they all seem to be advocating an increase in the very things that are bringing us to the brink once again. Difference being, back in the 30's most people wanted to work, and they didn't much care what kind of work it was.



The Occupy movement is a coming together of people who know something is terribly wrong. If you understand this then you understand what Occupy is all about. Certainly there are some common themes running through the movement, such as get money out of politics, fair taxes, electoral reform, and Wall Street regulation. These are the symptoms of a much bigger problem. It is no surprise that many are asking, “What do those occupiers want anyway?”

We want a world where people live in harmony. We want a world where resources are shared. We want a world where we collectively take care of each other. We want a world where war is not an option. We want a world where if you become ill, you don’t lose everything you worked hard for your entire life. We want a world where children are taught how to be human. We want a world where our differences don’t define us. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1...Occupiers-Want

Sounds nice, but it don't work in practice. It just doesn't. USSR, Cuba, etc have all proved it. I'm all for fair taxes...but I have an idea that my idea of fair taxes and theirs are way different.

What I find interesting is that it was the depression of the 30's that sparked so many of the social programs that have finally caught up with us and have helped to put us in the pickle we're in now. Here we are in another economic downturn (some would argue more severe, some might argue less), and these guys are advocating more gov spending. These are the guys that start throwing a hissy fit when the gov cuts arts spending etc. I have no doubt that there is the odd person there with a clue...but face it...the vast majority of these clowns can't even be bothered to use a washroom.

What are they the results of exactly? They seem to me to be the result of growing up spoiled rotten with a sense of entitlement. When I hear someone offering them jobs and not a single one takes it...kind of says it all right there.

Maybe I'm missing something...and I would sure appreciate it if you would just come right out and tell me what it is that you think the occupiers are so validly and valiantly fighting for???

[pogo]

Originally Posted by rugatika

I really don't get the connection between the occupiers and the Joads. The Joads were hard working farmers down on their luck, caught up in the dust bowl of the 30's.

Given that the Joads were moving across an entire country for work, I find it kinda weird that you would compare them to the occupiers who won't even move within a province for work.

The Joads are symbolic of middle society. They were a closely knit family with a history of hard work and sacrifice that had spanned generations. When things went wrong with the economy, they found themselves facing the brutally harsh realities of Capatalism at it's worst. Although they never knew it, or even had reason to ever think about it, they were only ever about one step, or one "drought" away from desparation. Just like it is to this day.

The "result" challenged the humanity of evryone living within the system. Despite the weighty challenges, the Joads, and Jim Casy, who paid with his life, remained principled.

The connection between the Joads and the "Occupiers" is that they each find themselves in or approaching desparate times. They are each "results", if you will, having found themselves shockingly in a frantic life situation not necessarily through any fault of their own.

There's far more to the story than just the Joads. Just like there's more to the story than just the "Occupiers".

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by pogo

The Joads are symbolic of middle society. And, although they never knew it, or even had reason to think about it, they were only ever about one step, or one "drought" away from desparation. Just like it is today.

The connection between the Joads and the "Occupiers" is that they each find themselves in or approaching desparate times. They are each "results", if you will, having found themselves shockingly in a life situation not necessarily through any fault of their own.

There's far more to the story than just the Joads. Just like there's more to the story than just the "Occupiers".

well like I said, none of the occupiers seem too interested in finding a job,

[pogo]

Originally Posted by rugatika

well like I said, none of the occupiers seem too interested in finding a job,

Rug, you could hand every single "Occupist" a job today and wouldn't change the direction "we" are headed one iota. I think they are more concerned about the forces that drove the Joads off the farm.

I applaud them.

[Big Daddy Badger]

A lot of people here like to throw the term Commie around.

Lets face it... Communism in it's purest ideological form sounds pretty attractive... especially to young, impressionable, under educated and desperate people.

True... the idea of Communism is much rosier than the reality could ever be but that doesn't matter because whenever people recycle an idea... they firmly believe this time... it will work because they want it to... so so badly.

The problem with not taking the Occupy folks seriously at this time is that the poverty gap is growing. The creation of high paying, high demand, high tech jobs did not have the expected resulting trickle-down effect that was expected. Instead, it created scores of low paying menial jobs with no benefits or future for those that take them because there is nothing else to be had... and they have no realistic chance to re=tool themselves for the better jobs....because ...like all of us they are locked into paying debts and trying to get by.

At some point the poverty gap reaches critical mass.
This is a well known fact that has been repeated over and over again in history.
Just look to our own history to see what was going on when trade unionism took hold and there were general strikes and job riots in Regina and Winnipeg.
The same things were happening in the US to and they were the reason that the GI Bill was drafted. The US did not want a repeat of what happened after WWI and... they knew that they needed to include everyone they could under that legislation... to keep the peace.

Right now the poverty gap in Canada is 1:8 and as predicted there is some civil unrest.
But, by the time it reaches 1:10 or so... which it should do in the next few years at the current rate... we will see more widespread and pronounced civil unrest and some violence.
Worse still, the next generation of angry people will be even more desperate and their average education will be less than that of the protestors now.

By the time we hit about 1:12 or so... we can expect to be on the brink of civil war.
Again... history has shown this to be true time and time again.
History has also shown us that civil wars are the most brutal, hate filled and revenge fueled wars and that they usually result in a new government that is opposite in principle to the previous one.

What style of government do you think will be the most attractive to the have nots when that occurs?

Whenever this happens it cuts one of two ways... Religious fundamentalism or... Communism.
Since we do not have a common religion of the people and most North Americans are not overly religious to begin with that leaves Communism.

The best way to prevent a Communist style government taking control in our future... is to take these guys seriously now and to start doing something to address the growing problem of disenfranchisement among our less fortunate.

We already have the NDP in opposition and since Canadians tend to vote for the opposition when they get tired of or angry at their current government... there are pretty good odds that the Conservatives will be replaced by the NDP... not the Liberals. In fact... it has never been more likely.

The writing is on the wall and whether you agree with all of the claims or want to support any of the initiatives put forth... it might not be a bad idea to re-think that and start looking for ways to resurrect social justice before we are all subjected to Socialist justice.

Just my musings...

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by pogo

Rug, you could hand every single "Occupist" a job today and wouldn't change the direction "we" are headed one iota. I think they are more concerned about the forces that drove the Joads off the farm.

I applaud them.

OK, you're hinting at something, but not coming out and saying it. "Forces" etc etc. What is the problem, and what is the cure as you and the occupiers see it? Do you agree with thedailyKOS definition of what the occupiers want and do you think it's reasonable??

Pesky, I'll ask you the same question. What is the solution to the widening wage gap and why do you think it's widening? AND, more importantly, why is it so wrong for there to be an increasing wage gap, other than it seems to make a certain segment of the population insanely jealous? (OK, it wasn't the same question, it was a different question)

Never in the history of man, has the absolute bottom of the population had it so good. When we talk about poverty in the western world, we are talking about people with a roof over their heads, with access to medical care never before even dreamt of, enough food that bellies protrude not with malnutrition, but from obesity, big screen tv's, cable, xbox, and so on. All provided to them by the very people they seek to blame.

I gotta say, from what I have seen, you guys are giving these hippies way too much credit.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by pogo

The ignorant views expressed are hardly new, and parallel those of the past. Simple views that were the impetus for Steinbeck's novel.

You mean "Tortilla Flat"?
"The characters... reject nearly all the standard mores of American society in enjoyment of a dissolute life centred around wine, lust, camaraderie and petty theft." (Wiki)
LOL

aw damn, I couldn't help it. LOL

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pesky672

The problem with not taking the Occupy folks seriously at this time is that the people not wanting to work hard gap is growing.

Made an important correction for you.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rugatika

OK, you're hinting at something, but not coming out and saying it. "Forces" etc etc. What is the problem, and what is the cure as you and the occupiers see it? Do you agree with thedailyKOS definition of what the occupiers want and do you think it's reasonable??

Pesky, I'll ask you the same question. What is the solution to the widening wage gap and why do you think it's widening? AND, more importantly, why is it so wrong for there to be an increasing wage gap, other than it seems to make a certain segment of the population insanely jealous? (OK, it wasn't the same question, it was a different question)

Never in the history of man, has the absolute bottom of the population had it so good. When we talk about poverty in the western world, we are talking about people with a roof over their heads, with access to medical care never before even dreamt of, enough food that bellies protrude not with malnutrition, but from obesity, big screen tv's, cable, xbox, and so on. All provided to them by the very people they seek to blame.

I gotta say, from what I have seen, you guys are giving these hippies way too much credit.

First... who calls anyone a hippy anymore?

Second... it is to the advantage of government at all levels and big business to make sure... you don't get to see or hear from the smart ones.
And... who has the most influence with the press?
Some guy working 2 minimum wage jobs to keep KD on the table or Bay Street?
The media is largely being steered and it is being done to control public opinion.
It happens all the time...remember the Gulf war?

Even this business with the CBC not releasing documents was a bit of a PR ploy by their corporate competitor... Sun Media.
yes the CBC was naughty... perhaps... but the Sun family of papers etc blatantly fabricated and orchestrated more than a bit of that.

Third... this is in it's infancy. No one paid Marx or Lenin or for that matter the Metis much heed when they were first feeling their way around and only beginning to develop long term strategy... and look how that turned out.

There was a time when waiters... waitresses... the guy pushing your groceries out to the car and many others in menial positions earned a livable wage working 40 hours per week doing those jobs.
There was a time when the head of GM made 4-5 times what his best paid laborer made.
It wasn't that long ago either... it was the 1950's.

Wages have not kept up to salaries....the way they used to....and we have replaced the waitresses with drive through attendants.
Full time..isn't 40 hours per week anymore.
Full time at all... is hard to find because nobody wants a union to form or to have to provide benefits.
They also don't feel like training people or having to deal with long term employees... advancement...pensions and seniority.

A while back some guy here was bragging that he made (as I recall) 800 per day doing a technician job for an oil company. He had gone to school for a couple years and thought that those wages... were fair... compared to the 30 million plus perks his CEO makes.

My response was...big deal...I made 400 per day in 1981... and I hadn't even finished high school yet.

Sure...his wages were good but they were also exceptional and not the rule.

Fact is...if wages and salaries had risen at an even rate...his CEO would be making about a tenth of what he actually does.
Instead, the bosses have been giving themselves wage increases while being more and more miserly at the bargaining table for decades now.

We need to raise minimum wage... quit calling 28 hours per week full time... and force government and corporations to accept the same sort of social responsibility that they used to have.
We need to halt globalism in it's tracks because it is bad for people...and results in the exportation of jobs and forces more work for less pay out of the common man.

I grew up in a company town.

The company built houses...schools...a hospital...an arena and helped construct a ski hill. They provided benefits to their employees and scholarships to deserving kids.
They took on apprentices regardless of government handouts and...they saw those apprenticeships completed rather than cut short so they would have a pool of available...half trained hopefuls waiting in the wings.

And... that company is alive and well today.
Imagine that?
Treating people fairly doesn't always result in bankruptcy....wow

What is wrong with the widening gap is that it is destroying the middle class and our social safety net.
It is slowly robbing the bulk of children in this country of any hope of a secure future.
It is unfair and the cold new face of aristocracy.
It is the rebirth of what Charles Dickens wrote about in A Christmas Carlol and Oliver Twist.
It creates jealousy yes...but it also creates poverty ignorance and want which are the foundations of violence...crime and disease.
It results in a justice system that favors of the wealthy over the poor and ....
it is a BIG mistake.

Eventually people will have had enough and there will be no stopping them from taking what they feel is their fair share... when that happens.

Imagine 1000 times as many Occupiers... only this time imagine them rioting....burning cars... attacking police stations and rich neighbourhoods.
You have to keep in mind that there are many many more people out there that are still quietly going about their business today but... are also sympathetic to the Occupy movement.
They are just not ready to openly support it yet

What would THAT do to our economy?
What would even a general strike do to it?
Obviously quite a bit if the government feels back to work legislation is needed every time just one large union takes job action...

Surely it would be better to be a bit less greedy and more generous now...than regret not doing that for generations.
I think that most of us...here on the forum are Christians...whether practicing or not... we purport to hold those essential values dear... at least until it really matters...then we forget everything we ever learned in church.

And maybe... THAT is the thing that is most wrong about this whole damn situation.

[rugatika]

So a largely left wing media is keeping the "smart" occupiers from appearing and is showcasing the dumb ones. Got it.

The middle class of today is worse off than the middle class of 40 years ago. Got it. I grew up in a middle class home with middle class friends. we lived in a 1200sq ft bungalow, with one tv, no ac, we got a vcr for christmas one year. We were very typical of middle class Canada at the time. Neither of my parents ever left the continent. We generally drove older vehicles.


Now...the middle class live in on avg a 1800sqft home, with several tvs, usually one newer vehicle (at least), ac in most homes, etc etc. Trips to Mexico, Europe, Hawaii etc are not rare. If you want to look at what has happened to disposable income, look at gov't taxes and fees.

When I grew up, the person bagging groceries was always a kid. Nobody expected to live off of those wages. What is ruining our social safety net, is that it never was sustainable. For a myriad of reasons...socialism does not work...mostly human nature. Min wages, are a bad thing as well.

Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your analysis. You seem to slant more towards a socialist state, while I would argue that the socialist state has gotten us into the predicament we're in now.

When throwing the term "greedy" around....I have to ask..."Who is it that is being greedy??" Is it the person that works 60 hrs a week away from home, or is it the person that sits at home and demands a portion of the working stiff's income in return for his vote for the party that gives him the biggest piece of the workers pie??

Oh, and I still call them hippies.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by rugatika

So a largely left wing media is keeping the "smart" occupiers from appearing and is showcasing the dumb ones. Got it.

The middle class of today is worse off than the middle class of 40 years ago. Got it. I grew up in a middle class home with middle class friends. we lived in a 1200sq ft bungalow, with one tv, no ac, we got a vcr for christmas one year. We were very typical of middle class Canada at the time. Neither of my parents ever left the continent. We generally drove older vehicles.


Now...the middle class live in on avg a 1800sqft home, with several tvs, usually one newer vehicle (at least), ac in most homes, etc etc. Trips to Mexico, Europe, Hawaii etc are not rare. If you want to look at what has happened to disposable income, look at gov't taxes and fees.

When I grew up, the person bagging groceries was always a kid. Nobody expected to live off of those wages. What is ruining our social safety net, is that it never was sustainable. For a myriad of reasons...socialism does not work...mostly human nature. Min wages, are a bad thing as well.

Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your analysis. You seem to slant more towards a socialist state, while I would argue that the socialist state has gotten us into the predicament we're in now. When throwing the term "greedy" around....I have to ask..."Who is it that is being greedy??" Is it the person that works 60 hrs a week away from home, or is it the person that sits at home and demands a portion of the working stiff's income in return for his vote for the party that gives him the biggest piece of the workers pie??

Oh, and I still call them hippies.

the usa is much more capatalist than canada is and they are in a much worse position than we are overall, countries that are better off than canada are more socialist than we are like sweden and norway, really it doesn't have much to do with socialist or capatalist it has to do with honest management and natural resources within the country.

I am not a big fan of large government as most of my posts have said, that being said however some things socialist is better at overall, we don't write a cheque to the fire department when they show up to put the fire in our house out, no we all pay property taxes and if something happens then they show up, same thing goes for the cops, we don't expect the military to turn a profit at the end of the year either, these are essential services and all socialist,collectively paid for meant for the collective good, we could get rid of some stuff in government no doubt but to say socialism doesn't work is wrong unless you don't like the fire department,police or military or what they do for all of us.

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/12/06...ts-ordered-out

They are GOOOONNNNNEEEEE!!!!!

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by rugatika

So a largely left wing media is keeping the "smart" occupiers from appearing and is showcasing the dumb ones. Got it.

The middle class of today is worse off than the middle class of 40 years ago. Got it. I grew up in a middle class home with middle class friends. we lived in a 1200sq ft bungalow, with one tv, no ac, we got a vcr for christmas one year. We were very typical of middle class Canada at the time. Neither of my parents ever left the continent. We generally drove older vehicles.


Now...the middle class live in on avg a 1800sqft home, with several tvs, usually one newer vehicle (at least), ac in most homes, etc etc. Trips to Mexico, Europe, Hawaii etc are not rare. If you want to look at what has happened to disposable income, look at gov't taxes and fees.

When I grew up, the person bagging groceries was always a kid. Nobody expected to live off of those wages. What is ruining our social safety net, is that it never was sustainable. For a myriad of reasons...socialism does not work...mostly human nature. Min wages, are a bad thing as well.

Sorry, but I have to completely disagree with your analysis. You seem to slant more towards a socialist state, while I would argue that the socialist state has gotten us into the predicament we're in now.

When throwing the term "greedy" around....I have to ask..."Who is it that is being greedy??" Is it the person that works 60 hrs a week away from home, or is it the person that sits at home and demands a portion of the working stiff's income in return for his vote for the party that gives him the biggest piece of the workers pie??

Oh, and I still call them hippies.

Whatever... if you are going to only discuss the middle class... we won't have much to talk about.
In a few more years... it won't exist.

There will only be those that are poor and those that are not.

You speak as though there simply isn't enough to go around so... someone has to suffer.
BS...
We have more than enough in this country to make sure that everyone is fed employed and housed. Enough so that the wealthy can remain wealthy and even increase that wealth.
But as long as one guy insists upon eating 9/10ths of the pie and leaves the remainder to be divided among the rest of us... this problem will continue to plague us and grow.

Lets take just one of those unsustainable socialist programs you speak of.

Healthcare.

There was a time when doctors didn't think they needed to make a half million per year and there was a time when we didn't spend rediculous amounts of money trying to save lives that were without quality or viable.

Maybe if more people in health care were satisfied with a reasonable albiet better than average wage and we spent less time trying to artificially extend life regardless of the expense or reasonableness of it... health care would be in better shape than it is now.
Not everyone that agrees with some of this occupy stuff is a communist or sitting at home on welfare....and not everyone earning a good wage is working 60 hours per week to do it.

When you offer up such polarized views... honest debate is not possible because it becomes nothing more than comparisons between the most extreme or worst examples.
Bottom line is there are a lot of people in Canada that do not have all of the things you speak of and can barely manage despite the fact that they to are working 60 hours per week and the average CEO now makes more in one week than his best paid employee does in a full year.

And while I agree people that work hard and achieve should also earn more...I do not agree that their wages should have increased by a factor of 50 or 60 in the same time frame that their employees wages have only increased by a factor of 5 or 6.


HIPPY

someone who has a bright outlook on life and cares about the world instead of trying to ruin it. they are often members of groups such as greenpeace and antiwar groups that care about the environment.
they reject the established culture and are a subculture originating in San Francisco in the 1960s who advocated universal love and peace.

Hmmm... maybe they are hippys...

Fascist

A person or political party with extreme rightwing views, often including racism, nationalism and complete obedience to authority.

Fascist
A supporter of the extreme right-wing political belief system and/or government.

Maybe they aren't too far off either though...

.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

the usa is much more capatalist than canada is and they are in a much worse position than we are overall, countries that are better off than canada are more socialist than we are like sweden and norway, really it doesn't have much to do with socialist or capatalist it has to do with honest management and natural resources within the country.

I am not a big fan of large government as most of my posts have said, that being said however some things socialist is better at overall, we don't write a cheque to the fire department when they show up to put the fire in our house out, no we all pay property taxes and if something happens then they show up, same thing goes for the cops, we don't expect the military to turn a profit at the end of the year either, these are essential services and all socialist,collectively paid for meant for the collective good, we could get rid of some stuff in government no doubt but to say socialism doesn't work is wrong unless you don't like the fire department,police or military or what they do for all of us.

Oh wow...someone mentioned fire and police as being socialist. I just saw Nenshee and mayor dinglenuts from Edmonton last night trotting out the same argument..."we need more taxes than property taxes, you don't want to lose police and fire services do you??"

I would argue that the USA is not a lot more capitalist than Canada. They have the EPA that goes a long way to stifling many projects etc.

Anyway, I'm off to work...but in the interim go watch a video byMilton Friedman why free markets are better than socialism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-D2...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYeYP...eature=related

lots more...free markets will always lead to more prosperity for the entire population than socialism will.

Bonus video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGC...eature=related

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by pesky672

Whatever... if you are going to only discuss the middle class... we won't have much to talk about.
In a few more years... it won't exist.

There will only be those that are poor and those that are not.

You speak as though there simply isn't enough to go around so... someone has to suffer.
BS...
We have more than enough in this country to make sure that everyone is fed employed and housed. Enough so that the wealthy can remain wealthy and even increase that wealth.
But as long as one guy insists upon eating 9/10ths of the pie and leaves the remainder to be divided among the rest of us... this problem will continue to plague us and grow.

Lets take just one of those unsustainable socialist programs you speak of.

Healthcare.

There was a time when doctors didn't think they needed to make a half million per year and there was a time when we didn't spend rediculous amounts of money trying to save lives that were without quality or viable.

Maybe if more people in health care were satisfied with a reasonable albiet better than average wage and we spent less time trying to artificially extend life regardless of the expense or reasonableness of it... health care would be in better shape than it is now.
Not everyone that agrees with some of this occupy stuff is a communist or sitting at home on welfare....and not everyone earning a good wage is working 60 hours per week to do it.

When you offer up such polarized views... honest debate is not possible because it becomes nothing more than comparisons between the most extreme or worst examples.
Bottom line is there are a lot of people in Canada that do not have all of the things you speak of and can barely manage despite the fact that they to are working 60 hours per week and the average CEO now makes more in one week than his best paid employee does in a full year.

And while I agree people that work hard and achieve should also earn more...I do not agree that their wages should have increased by a factor of 50 or 60 in the same time frame that their employees wages have only increased by a factor of 5 or 6.


HIPPY

someone who has a bright outlook on life and cares about the world instead of trying to ruin it. they are often members of groups such as greenpeace and antiwar groups that care about the environment.
they reject the established culture and are a subculture originating in San Francisco in the 1960s who advocated universal love and peace.

Hmmm... maybe they are hippys...

Fascist

A person or political party with extreme rightwing views, often including racism, nationalism and complete obedience to authority.

Fascist
A supporter of the extreme right-wing political belief system and/or government.

Maybe they aren't too far off either though...

.

Who's doing the polarizing? I'm the one saying the poor shoudn't be going after the rich, they came about their wealth honestly for the most part. There will always be hooligans in every class.

The pie is plenty big enough...see Margaret Thatchers explanation in my other post in the Bonus Video.

What's your point in the health care comment? That old people shouldn't try and live so long? I'm unclear on that point. Please clarify what you mean. Yes people with chronic illness cost more to look after, should we suspend care for them. Or do you just mean old people? How old? Who decides?

So who should decide how much health care professionas make? Should they only make 100grand a year? What do you think that would do the number of doctors?

How long did you have to dig to find that def of fascist?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(epithet)

Sorry for the rushed post...work is calling.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Oh wow...someone mentioned fire and police as being socialist. I just saw Nenshee and mayor dinglenuts from Edmonton last night trotting out the same argument..."we need more taxes than property taxes, you don't want to lose police and fire services do you??"

I would argue that the USA is not a lot more capitalist than Canada. They have the EPA that goes a long way to stifling many projects etc.

Anyway, I'm off to work...but in the interim go watch a video byMilton Friedman why free markets are better than socialism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-D2...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYeYP...eature=related

lots more...free markets will always lead to more prosperity for the entire population than socialism will.

Bonus video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGC...eature=related

im just pointing out that in certain instances socialism is a better alternative than capatalism like with the fire department/police department etc, I never said it was better overall but in small instances it does work better.

[pogo]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

im just pointing out that in certain instances socialism is a better alternative than capatalism like with the fire department/police department etc, I never said it was better overall but in small instances it does work better.

I don't think there's a single member of this board who has the slightest inkling of how ugly "Capitalism" can get when the wheels come off. Most are quite content with their places on "Keene's Ranch", figuratively speaking.

The truth is, nobody knows what the ideal system is. I would like to think that Capitalism with a conscience and benevolence (read social values)would be ideal. We aren't there yet.

Youth is wasted on the young. Just as education is wasted on the ignorant.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by pogo

I don't think there's a single member of this board who has the slightest inkling of how ugly "Capitalism" can get when the wheels come off. Most are quite content with their places on "Keene's Ranch", figuratively speaking.

The truth is, nobody knows what the ideal system is. I would like to think that Capitalism with a conscience and benevolence (read social values)would be ideal. We aren't there yet.

Youth is wasted on the young. Just as education is wasted on the ignorant.

pure capatalism is a great thing and can lead to many great inventions etc, but we will never have pure capatalism, look at what happened with the bailouts does anybody think the government should interfere with taxpayer dollars and future debt to save big business? are capatalists willing to scratch a cheque when they call the fire department? can we have fair private courts? should the military be designed to turn a profit to shearholders?

[classiccanadianblizzard]

What do ya'll say we start a Occupy, Occupy Calgary protest?

We go down to the plaza, pick a tent , and just move in!

I wonder how they would like that?

[scooter123]

Dear protestors.....when was the last time you occupied you place of employment????

[pogo]

[CentIt3]

The police are acting so grotesque towards these protesters, every time I see a cop I feel disgust.

[Sundancefisher]

You know a protest has failed miserably when the main topics become a vague after thought to be protested and when the protest morphs from protesting the random topics to protesting the right protest where ever they please. These kids are so young...they have no clue. They did not learned from their parents that if you nag and nag and nag that the only thing heard is nagging and not the message or the question.

People are fed up with these so called protests. The protesters have just become the poster child for spoiled brats that feel a strong sense of entitlement and a demand to have every thing handed to them on a silver platter. No work ethic...fear of hardship.

It is way easier to sit in a tent and demand to be fed and housed and given free electricity...standing around talking and not doing...oh wait...that is what they were doing at home also. Parents...please take your kids back into your own home...they are annoying. Otherwise...we can house them in jail on Saturday.

[Grizzled]

Will be interesting to see if the police and by law people have the jam to make them go away in about an hour...

Time for being nice is OVER

[pogo]

There......saves me a thousand words.