Hunting with an Atlatl

[J D]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

If you can hurl a thumb tack fast enough and accurate enough to kill big game then I am accepting of it, but you should have to prove it, and provide scientific data in support, not just jaw service. I am very surprised its legal when Alberta states you need 40 lb for a bow, yet no regulating requirements for Atlatl or spears, I am glad this was brought to light, seems like this loophole/ gap is where some attention should be spent.

I can understand regulations in place to be sure the tool used is effective example cutting diameter and so on.

Saying the hunter needs to show they are effective with the tool can be used against all forms of hunting. Should all hunters need to show they are effective with their weapon of choice?

Accuracy and effectiveness with their weapon is a responsibility of the hunter regardless of weapon choice. In the end it is the hunter who fails not the weapon

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

My opinion is that the ABA position(s) are counter productive to all hunters standing united. When a so called hunting organization targets groups that hunt with a different tool other than a bow, that is not standing united with all hunters. I'll call a spade a spade all day long and into the night if it is what it is. Ignoring the 10 ton elephant in the room is not my style.

How about you tell me, how is the ABA's position on atlatl and spears standing united with hunters that chose that method of hunting?

The ABA deserves to be bashed, they earned it, and I don't care who it ticks off.

Why should the ABA be bashed. IMO a spear is far from humane. I thought that way before any of this come to a head.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

After 10 pages this ^^^^is the only thing that really makes sense here.

The ABA is a special interest group. Fact.
Alberta Atlatl is another special interest group. Fact.
After 10 pages it comes out that they are not only a special interest group, but also a business. Fact. Using this issue, at the expense of more important ones, to advertise their business. For free, possibly against forum rules....

What I take out of this is, that whichever group is looking after the general resident hunter, is doing a pretty poor job considering that this is drowning out more important issues.

All of these groups are doing a poor job of this but srd is doing an even worse job of it.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Why should the ABA be bashed. IMO a spear is far from humane. I thought that way before any of this come to a head.

Some might argue that arrows and bolts are far from humane. I'm willing to bet that an experienced atlatl or spear hunter is a lot more humane than an inexperienced bow hunter that's going to gut shoot a deer.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by J D

I can understand regulations in place to be sure the tool used is effective example cutting diameter and so on.

Saying the hunter needs to show they are effective with the tool can be used against all forms of hunting. Should all hunters need to show they are effective with their weapon of choice?
Accuracy and effectiveness with their weapon is a responsibility of the hunter regardless of weapon choice. In the end it is the hunter who fails not the weapon

Yes they should as there are way to many people running around hunting with weapons they should not be using or there weapon is not even sighted in proper to make a humane kill of any animal.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Some might argue that arrows and bolts are far from humane. I'm willing to bet that an experienced atlatl or spear hunter is a lot more humane than an inexperienced bow hunter that's going to gut shoot a deer.

BS

[J D]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Why should the ABA be bashed. IMO a spear is far from humane. I thought that way before any of this come to a head.

Used correctly they are just as humane as archery. Really they work under the same printable when it comes to killing an animal. The atlatl that is also being scrutinized is really just an over sized arrow. If they achieve penetration of the vitals they are lethal.

The issue really lies in the ethics of the hunter using them. This is the case with any weapon and un fortunately there are hunters with **** poor ethics out there.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by J D

Used correctly they are just as humane as archery. Really they work under the same printable when it comes to killing an animal. The atlatl that is also being scrutinized is really just an over sized arrow. If they achieve penetration of the vitals they are lethal.

The issue really lies in the ethics of the hunter using them. This is the case with any weapon and un fortunately there are hunters with **** poor ethics out there.

Ethics have nothing to do with it. You can NOT be accurate with these devices. Maybe you might get ok with them but still far from accurate. So IMO that is the biggest key with making a humane kill.

[J D]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Yes they should as there are way to many people running around hunting with weapons they should not be using or there weapon is not even sighted in proper to make a humane kill of any animal.

This issue is the real problem not the weapons used. I do agree that there are too many that do not use proper ethics limiting what shots they should take or taking time to be sure of there accuracy.

In all honesty I would support all hunter doing a proficiency test for there weapons of choice well before a ban on a weapon because some may not use it correctly

[J D]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Ethics have nothing to do with it. You can NOT be accurate with these devices. Maybe you might get ok with them but still far from accurate. So IMO that is the biggest key with making a humane kill.

Accuracy of a weapon comes down to the skill of the hunter not the weapon.

It is an ethics issue as no matter the weapon the hunter needs to know his true limits on accuracy and distance. If the hunter cannot accurately use the weapon they should not hunt with it regardless of what it is.

There are those who cannot hit the broadside of a barn and never will with trad bows or iron sights but should we ban them because it is too hard for some hunters?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Ethics have nothing to do with it. You can NOT be accurate with these devices. Maybe you might get ok with them but still far from accurate. So IMO that is the biggest key with making a humane kill.

I think that you ought to watch the OP's videos on just how accurate he is with an atlatl. He seems pretty darned accurate to me.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I think that you ought to watch the OP's videos on just how accurate he is with an atlatl. He seems pretty darned accurate to me.

Ya on a target. I dought it when hunting as there are way more factors to it. You also have to do a lot of movment when throwing so I bet the animal notices the movement and is on his/her way out of there when spear hits causing way less than a perfect and humane kill.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Ya on a target. I dought it when hunting as there are way more factors to it. You also have to do a lot of movment when throwing so I bet the animal notices the movement and is on his/her way out of there when spear hits causing way less than a perfect and humane kill.

Critters on the ground is proof of theor effectiveness and it has been proven for thousands of years.
I know more than a few archers who sneer at traditional equipment saying it's ineffective as well, not to mention modern rifle shooters who think a traditional muzzle loader is nothing but a toy.
I've spoke with this type of person many times and it never ceases to amaze me how narrow minded some people can be.
Cat

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Critters on the ground is proof of theor effectiveness and it has been proven for thousands of years.
I know more than a few archers who sneer at traditional equipment saying it's ineffective as well, not to mention modern rifle shooters who think a traditional muzzle loader is nothing but a toy.
I've spoke with this type of person many times and it never ceases to amaze me how narrow minded some people can be.
Cat

Not at all.I have nothing against open sights and long bows. Just not a spear and an atlis. Barbaric is what come to mind when you all speak of hunting with a spear/atlis. I like to put animals down as fast as possible. A spear is as far from that as you can get. This is not thousands of years ago.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Not at all.I have nothing against open sights and long bows. Just not a spear and an atlis. Barbaric is what come to mind when you all speak of hunting with a spear/atlis. I like to put animals down as fast as possible. A spear is as far from that as you can get. This is not thousands of years ago.

Do you realize that your argument is the exact one that is used by those opposed to archery hunting with traditional equipment and round ball muzzle loaders?
Cat

[SammyIam]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Critters on the ground is proof of theor effectiveness and it has been proven for thousands of years.
I know more than a few archers who sneer at traditional equipment saying it's ineffective as well, not to mention modern rifle shooters who think a traditional muzzle loader is nothing but a toy.
I've spoke with this type of person many times and it never ceases to amaze me how narrow minded some people can be.
Cat

I agree. And possibly the more narrow minded they are, the less effective they are with their own weapon of choice. Thus they can't understand...if they can't do it themselves with a modern firearm, how in the world could anyone else do it with primitive equipment. The first deer I shot with a longbow, was a whitetail buck from 35 yds on the ground. I thought I missed, as I saw the arrow hit the ground on the other side of the deer. The deer continued to feed and paid no attention to the shot. Still had his nose to the ground, took 3 steps, and fell over dead. He had no idea he had even been shot. Just as humane as any modern equipment kill I have ever seen.

[SammyIam]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Not at all.I have nothing against open sights and long bows. Just not a spear and an atlis. Barbaric is what come to mind when you all speak of hunting with a spear/atlis. I like to put animals down as fast as possible. A spear is as far from that as you can get. This is not thousands of years ago.

And this is based on all the spear killed animals you have seen?..haha

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Do you realize that your argument is the exact one that is used by those opposed to archery hunting with traditional equipment and round ball muzzle loaders?
Cat

Not in the slightest are they the same.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by SammyIam

And this is based on all the spear killed animals you have seen?..haha

Narrow minded you are. If you disagree then disagree. I have killed with a long bow all the way to a modern snper rifle. They are all different than a spear end of story. Soon this topic will be as dead as the crossbow threads.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Not in the slightest are they the same.

Actually the argument is, I have spoke with these people many times as I stated, and i was told the VERY same thing you posted, everything from archaic to barbaric to ineffective.
As I have already stated, I have spoken with these people before and have defended their same choices of hunting gear to those that opposed it .
Even though I do not hunt with a compound or cross bow, I have taken the stance since I was young that it does not matter the gear, but to say it is more special or effective than someone elses' gear is not right for the good of hunting.
If you have hunted with a long bow and long range rifle how can you take the stance that atlatls or spears are not effective?
Neither is a long range rifle in the wrong hands, but many people continue to go afield with them without knowing how to properly use them
Cat

[SammyIam]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Narrow minded you are. If you disagree then disagree. I have killed with a long bow all the way to a modern snper rifle. They are all different than a spear end of story. Soon this topic will be as dead as the crossbow threads.

In what way are they different than a spear?

[Full Curl Earl]

How does this line up with minimum cartridges for big game? Should it be permitted to hunt big game with .22 long rifle, or even air rifles? Or is this requirement based on testing and that these cartridges and weapons are not efficient enough for killing large animals?
Lets not compare Atlatl's to other weapons, as that's a fools argument. I wish protecting habitat for Alberta's wildlife was this important.

[diamonddave]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Ya on a target. I dought it when hunting as there are way more factors to it. You also have to do a lot of movment when throwing so I bet the animal notices the movement and is on his/her way out of there when spear hits causing way less than a perfect and humane kill.

Just because you can not do it, does not mean it isn't doable and effective. I couldn't shoot a deer with a traditional bow set up, doesnt mean that others can't.

[albertaatlatl]

First of all, yes I manufacture Atlatls and Darts! This has NOTHING to do with the argument of their use! The fact is, Atlatls and Spears ARE effective, as effective as bows, crossbows, rifles and shotguns. The accuracy aregument is a foolish point to bring up. Any tool is as accurate as any other!!! IT'S A TOOL!! The user of said tool determines the accuracy!! This thread is not/was not intended to be a bash on anyone! The purpose of this thread IS to inform and receive information from hunters. I believe that ALL hunters should be able to hunt with their choice of tool. Your tool choice must be capable of effectively harvesting an animal. Hunter ethics, to me, is a quick clean kill. An implement that ensures this, in my opinion, is okay! Let's not lose sight of the possible ramifications of banning ANY tool. What's next? Should be our concern. I choose to hunt primarily with an Atlatl! I shoot a handmade trad bow! We use stonepoints, wood shafts and natural feathers. I have, and will use a rifle if I choose too! I am not posting for free advertisement, as accused of earlier, but rather out of concern for the potential loss of primitive and traditional equipment! Let's stick to the facts, shall we. If a definition of a legal weapon is what the ESRD and others really want, then write one. I'm prepared to present one to the AGMAG table if required. I don't want to go in this direction because it opens a whole can of worms to define, with clarity, EVERY and ANY tool with the appropriate specifications. What that means to me, is from caliber to construction. That's a lot of info, and a lot of wasted time and $.

[diamonddave]

Agree 100%

[albertaatlatl]

Full Curl Earl has a great point. I too wish that habitat for wildlife was as important! Thanks for stepping up FCE!

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by petew

This cause just lost my support.

Your trad bows may be next there Pete.

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by albertaatlatl

First of all, yes I manufacture Atlatls and Darts! This has NOTHING to do with the argument of their use! The fact is, Atlatls and Spears ARE effective, as effective as bows, crossbows, rifles and shotguns. The accuracy aregument is a foolish point to bring up. Any tool is as accurate as any other!!! IT'S A TOOL!! The user of said tool determines the accuracy!! This thread is not/was not intended to be a bash on anyone! The purpose of this thread IS to inform and receive information from hunters. I believe that ALL hunters should be able to hunt with their choice of tool. Your tool choice must be capable of effectively harvesting an animal. Hunter ethics, to me, is a quick clean kill. An implement that ensures this, in my opinion, is okay! Let's not lose sight of the possible ramifications of banning ANY tool. What's next? Should be our concern. I choose to hunt primarily with an Atlatl! I shoot a handmade trad bow! We use stonepoints, wood shafts and natural feathers. I have, and will use a rifle if I choose too! I am not posting for free advertisement, as accused of earlier, but rather out of concern for the potential loss of primitive and traditional equipment! Let's stick to the facts, shall we. If a definition of a legal weapon is what the ESRD and others really want, then write one. I'm prepared to present one to the AGMAG table if required. I don't want to go in this direction because it opens a whole can of worms to define, with clarity, EVERY and ANY tool with the appropriate specifications. What that means to me, is from caliber to construction. That's a lot of info, and a lot of wasted time and $.

Well said sir.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by diamonddave

Just because you can not do it, does not mean it isn't doable and effective. I couldn't shoot a deer with a traditional bow set up, doesnt mean that others cann't.
You have to take the "I'm right because I think I am, and the rest of you are wrong because you dissagree with me" attitude and place it directly where the sun can not get at it.

Who says who cant? I don't agree so I don't use them. Pretty simple DD don't like what I post? Don't read my posts then.

I don't agree with them period and Hope they get banned from hunting in Alberta.

Good luck to you guys with your fight

[calgarychef]

Yup Pete Ward, after all the trad bows you've reviewed wouldn't it be "interesting" if the compound guys ganged up on us trad hunters and decided FOR US that we couldn't hunt with them anymore because they aren't accurate enough?

ABA and Brent Watson, you'll be lucky to see my membership next year. After all the good the ABA has done for my sport how could I support them after trampling someone else's sport?