Baiting In Alberta

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

wow please inform your self.. you are assuming .. i do not agree with Deer or Elk farming or hunt farms in Sask or anywhere .. every time a wmu has a postive test its put on the mandatory testing list.. i do not agree with baiting or feeding of any wildlife.. i do not agree with high numbers of unglates in any area of Alberta .. AFGA has a paper saying that 16 per sq mile is to high...
the only place it been detected is shown in posted

the recomended policy is in posts

it all started in 1 GMU in Col now look where it is ... so don,t do anything and it will be in most wmu in Alberta in 30 years as it has spread all ready ..

if we don,t make some hard choices as in Europe then it will spread as in the USA and we should be sending our cost of controling bills to the USA Testing Facality as posted it most likely came from Scrappies pen and jumped spieces to that mule deer then poor controls boots/dirt etc left the facility

most of this info is posted in reports i posted

keeping a bait ban is the Only choice for Alberta

Food for Thought

David

David

Ban baiting? but continue to congregate domesticated elk and deer in the same feeding practices as baiting?. It 's all or nothing bud. No half measure. This is my point. We are chasing our tail.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by justinO

1. How did CWD originate, was it due to human involvement?
2. How is CWD spread?
Remember facts only not opinion.
Thanks

you havent read the links already provided.

it is spread via prions which are shed by infected animals in excrement, body fluids etc. the exact origin is not known for sure, but all evidence points to a mutation from other TSE diseases. the factual links have been provided if anyone would bother to read them.



david, you asked for evidence and links and i provided them. you clearly have not read them and i suspect you have barely skimmed the links you provided yourself. there is info on the front page of a few that disputes what you are saying....which is nothing more than what the "experts" in AB and SK have fed us.

your math is a little suspect as well. you said that 3 deer indicates 100% infection. i dont believe you arent smart enough to know that 3 animals is not a representative number to prove anything. i suspect when you say there is 25% infection in SK, that it would be along the lines of 4 animals were tested and 1 was positive. i would provide more links, but its a waste of time when you havent read the ones already provided. i said it early in this topic that anyone today that still isnt educated on the facts of this disease doesnt want to be. you are proving my point.

[justinO]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;1747486]you havent read the links already provided.

it is spread via prions which are shed by infected animals in excrement, body fluids etc. the exact origin is not known for sure, but all evidence points to a mutation from other TSE diseases. the factual links have been provided if anyone would bother to read them.



Don't worry I have read them spent hours researching and even read about the new theory that it is a Spiroplasma.
If they know for sure it is spread through baiting then all the states and provinces that have CWD including ours that allow baiting or feeding of animals are even stupider than I think they are already!!!!!!

[justinO]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;1747486]you havent read the links already provided.

it is spread via prions which are shed by infected animals in excrement, body fluids etc. the exact origin is not known for sure, but all evidence points to a mutation from other TSE diseases. the factual links have been provided if anyone would bother to read them.



Also please don't copy only part of my post then try to make it seem like I haven't researched the topic. As I already posted exactly what you wrote in the answer you gave. just slightly different wording.
I said
They BELIEVE it is through contact, saliva, and possibly can be passed on through birth zero factual evidence Please answer these questions as I have researched and no one knows they have made speculations but no factual evidence. If you find facts post the link please.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by justinO

Also please don't copy only part of my post then try to make it seem like I haven't researched the topic. As I already posted exactly what you wrote in the answer you gave. just slightly different wording.
I said
They BELIEVE it is through contact, saliva, and possibly can be passed on through birth zero factual evidence Please answer these questions as I have researched and no one knows they have made speculations but no factual evidence. If you find facts post the link please.

OK here are the facts, from the material already posted. If you have a sick animal and put a healthy one in there, the healthy one gets sick. If you have a sick animal in a pen and then remove it, then put healthy one in that pen, it will get sick. That is how its known as an infectious disease.

They have found the prion in the lymph system. At present, the purposed live test is testing lymph tissue around the anus. Right now they have had minimal success with it, but are having false negative testing. They don't care if they get false positives, but false negatives is a bad thing as I am sure anyone can see.

So they don't know the exact method that the prion is shed. The MOST likely is that saliva, urine, and feces. Not sure what you are arguing about.

It has been proven that sick animals spread this disease to healthy animals, unlike BSE or CJD. That is what makes it difficult to control.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Well David, for a start we should as sportsmen and women stand up and unite for opportunity and options of artificial baiting for the purposes of hunting. Why can anyone other than a person who purchases a wildlife certificate use artificial bait for their personal pleasure all year when we can not ? That would be a start hey, play by the same rule book and not discriminate against the our sport

Hey if we are so worried, diversified agriculture should be stopped period, anything for profit that presents a risk should end.

Wouldn't it be cool if we removed the animals from zoos and exhibits the public has access too ? Not sure but last time I seen a zoo animal it certainly was at greater risk than a friggen deer munching some grain in the wild..

Again, why are we discriminated against 3 months of the year, we paid too to enjoy our resources with our wildlife certificate and general tag system.

We eat our own cause our beliefs are different, our heritage is doomed and options to enjoy are dwindling faster than CWD will ever spread ( IMO )

David, have not seen a responce from you ? Further into this thread you say "keeping a bait ban is the Only choice for Alberta". Well, there is NO bait ban, just for the purpose of hunting

I lean to the discriminating of sportsmen and women regarding artificial baiting and either level the playing fields or allow this as a legal form of hunting, pretty much what this thread is about.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

OK here are the facts, from the material already posted. If you have a sick animal and put a healthy one in there, the healthy one gets sick. If you have a sick animal in a pen and then remove it, then put healthy one in that pen, it will get sick. That is how its known as an infectious disease.

They have found the prion in the lymph system. At present, the purposed live test is testing lymph tissue around the anus. Right now they have had minimal success with it, but are having false negative testing. They don't care if they get false positives, but false negatives is a bad thing as I am sure anyone can see.

So they don't know the exact method that the prion is shed. The MOST likely is that saliva, urine, and feces. Not sure what you are arguing about.

It has been proven that sick animals spread this disease to healthy animals, unlike BSE or CJD. That is what makes it difficult to control.

That is all I have been saying this whole time. I read the same articles and reports you have. Same answers. Lots of unknowns.

If a buck has cwd and during the rut while coving many kms Hitting scrapes, licking branches, and actually licking a does' face , vagina, anus and having intercourse can the disease not be spread this way? If it is how will we stop this? Or are we being nieve and just assuming it is spread through a few issolated bait piles. And not the farmers bails left out all winter?
This is my point deer and elk are always in contact get out and view some of them and you will see this. And eliiminating bait piles will not stop the spread just as the culls will not stop them maybe slow a bit but that is a theory and hasn't worked in the past. We have seen in the so called hot spots over 40+ years yes a spread but very minimal spread of cwd and this is with increased testing more you test more you find out..
No where even close to an alberta wide cwd population in 2015....
Winter kills,, and poor management kills more deer in alberta than CWD ever will.

Justin, the point you seem to be missing is that prions are constantly shed at locations throughout a deer's range but it's when that concentration of prions increases due to concentrating deer with situations like baiting that the risk of infection increases. Donkey made a great analogy a while back about sprinkling a bit of salt on the ground and you likely won't see much effect on vegitation but keep sprinkling a bit of salt on the ground daily in the same location and suddenly the concentration increases to a point where it become toxic...and it stays toxic for a long time.

There's some things we have control over with the spread of disease and others we don't...it seems common sense to manage the ones we do. Baiting is one that we do.

poor management kills more deer in alberta than CWD ever will.

So two wrongs make a right? This we do other things wrong arguement seems to be all that the pro baiters have to hang their hats on...it's really not an arguement...it just shows the weakness of your position.

[justinO]

I am not pro baiting. All i want to know is how we can assume baiting is the main cause of the spread when there are so many unknowns. So the salt theory does not apply to farmers fields? It sounds like any easy assumtion to me to pin it on baiting is all. And if you want to just get ride of baiting well then can't stop there farmers field have to go to.
Please don't take out one sentence of my post and answer just that.
I know you know more than me and most on here. Can you answer my question about the buck in the rut from my last post. What factual evidence shows this cannot spread cwd?
And aren't elk concentrated majority of the year. And don't deer herd up in the winters?

Originally Posted by justinO

I am not pro baiting. All i want to know is how we can assume baiting is the main cause of the spread when there are so many unknowns. So the salt theory does not apply to farmers fields? It sounds like any easy assumtion to me to pin it on baiting is all. And if you want to just get ride of baiting well then can't stop there farmers field have to go to.
Please don't take out one sentence of my post and answer just that.
I know you know more than me and most on here. Can you answer my question about the buck in the rut from my last post. What factual evidence shows this cannot spread cwd?
And aren't elk concentrated majority of the year. And don't deer herd up in the winters?

You seem to be reading a lot into things Justin that hasn't been said here. Of course a breeding buck can spread CWD as can a million other types of contact, I don't recall anyone saying they couldn't. And, where has anyone said baiting is the main cause? All I've read here is that concentrating deer unnaturally can further the spread of the disease. It can...that is an undisputable fact. We are talking risk factors and what increases those risk factors. Some we can manage and some we can't. The arguement is to manage the ones we can. No one is pinning CWD on baiting...just saying that it increases the risk factor of infection.

Can you honestly tell me you can't see the difference between a 1/4 section of oats and a six foot diameter pile of oats in the relation to deer being exposed to prions? This is common sense stuff. Read what guys like Donkey are actually writing...not what you want it say. He's a smart guy.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You seem to be reading a lot into things Justin that hasn't been said here. Of course a breeding buck can spread CWD as can a million other types of contact, I don't recall anyone saying they couldn't. And, where has anyone said baiting is the main cause? All I've read here is that concentrating deer unnaturally can further the spread of the disease. It can...that is an undisputable fact. We are talking risk factors and what increases those risk factors. Some we can manage and some we can't. The arguement is to manage the ones we can. No one is pinning CWD on baiting...just saying that it increases the risk factor of infection.

Can you honestly tell me you can't see the difference between a 1/4 section of oats and a six foot diameter pile of oats in the relation to deer being exposed to prions? This is common sense stuff.

Have to run right now. I'll come back to this later tonight.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by justinO

All i want to know is how we can assume baiting is the main cause of the spread when there are so many unknowns.

i dont see anywhere that anyone has said baiting is the main cause of spread. only that it concentrates animals which definitely does increase contact which may lead to increased transmission.

given what goes on in saskatchewan i dont think baiting is showing to have a measurable difference in infection rates, but thats just opinion. you want facts....the fact is that the disease is spread through contact with infected prions, and concentrating animals in any way is going to increase the possibility of healthy animals contacting infected prions from others. back to opinion again....a great deal of the provinces of alberta and saskatchewan are food plots and bait piles due to agriculture. the normal habits of ungulates leads to a lot of direct contact as well. back to fact....saskatchewan allows baiting for hunting, and there infection rates are very similar to albertas. feel free to form your own opinion, but quit disputing known facts already.

[Lefty-Canuck]

A point some are also missing is that baiting in Alberta has been used for many years and is legal for certain purposes. People feed deer in the winter by putting out bales and birdseed...people bait for photography...people bait to collect sheds...etc.

Another point people are missing is how did CWD come to Alberta?....alot of fingers point to game farms... yet they are still allowed to continue to operate...is that the cause? who knows but it seems to be a contributing factor.

If SRD was soooo concerned about the spread of CWD why have they yet to ban game farming in this province?? this alone is very telling. Game farms do not even have to set up an extra set of fences to limit domestic herd to wild herd contact....this is mind boggling. I have seen many times wild elk in close proximity to captive ones....staring at them through a game fence mere inches from each other.

*disclamier* (before people label me as a baiter )
FWIW, if baiting was legal to use for hunting purposes in Alberta I would likely not use it as I am way too ADD to sit over a pile of apples, I can hardly sit in a stand as it is.

BUT....when hunting in times of dry weather I will hunt near springs. If I know a cow moose is hanging in an area, I will hunt there looking for a bull. If I know a group of does are feeding consistantly in a field I will spend more time there looking for a buck.....difference is i never put the water, cow, or does there.....they did that on their own

LC

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There's some things we have control over with the spread of disease and others we don't...it seems common sense to manage the ones we do. Baiting is one that we do.

So two wrongs make a right? This we do other things wrong arguement seems to be all that the pro baiters have to hang their hats on...it's really not an arguement...it just shows the weakness of your position.

Have to chime in again

We do NOT currently have any control over artificial baiting, we are only discriminating against hunting over it, PERIOD ! So only wrong here is the unjustly discrimination of our hunting community, why are we not banding together for an opportunity that every Tom, Dick and Harry has and WE do not ?

Pro baiter, I think not, just pro recreation that I am passionate about.

Ungulates will continue to come into contact with each other and risk the spread of this disease, we all know that... Risk, well truthfully focussing on game fencing around all man made artificial foods in my mind would be a more proactive approach and in the long run provide better results in relation to ungulates dirrect contact and concerns in congested areas.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If SRD was soooo concerned about the spread of CWD why have they yet to ban game farming in this province?? this alone is very telling. LC

There is no "if". SRD is very concerned about the spread of CWD in the province. And yes, you are correct, their position regarding game farms is very telling although not in the sense you were portaying here I suspect

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There is no "if". SRD is very concerned about the spread of CWD in the province. And yes, you are correct, their position regarding game farms is very telling although not in the sense you were portaying here I suspect

And what sense is that I might ask?

My point is why not go to the identified "root of the problem" ?

LC

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by roger

im no biologist and never played one on TV but, i think that introducing a bait station, either to be hunted over or as a novelty (for trailcams or simply veiwing) cannot be good for the animal.
It creates a dependency on the human input so if things change, the third or fourth or 10th generation will be at a loss on how to forage naturally.

i also agree with sheephunter, it is going on now...

I doubt they'd lose their natural ability to forage but I have no doubt that habituating animals to come to bait... makes em a lot easier to harvest come hunting season and I know that bringing animals into more frequent contact with contagion increases the attack rate of disease.

Claiming that CWD wouldn't be advanced by the use of bait stations is like denying the epidemiology or hoof and mouth or anthrax and just plain silly.

We know that it is transmitted from animal to animal and/or through contaminated ground/feed etc.
Isn't that what bait stations would result in?
Close contact between individuals and heavily contaminated soil and feed?

If you bring a susceptible individual into contact with a carrier... there is a chance that disease will spread.
If you bring that individual into frequent close contact with a carrier the odds increase exponentially.

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Have to chime in again

We do NOT currently have any control over artificial baiting, we are only discriminating against hunting over it, PERIOD ! So only wrong here is the unjustly discrimination of our hunting community, why are we not banding together for an opportunity that every Tom, Dick and Harry has and WE do not ?

Pro baiter, I think not, just pro recreation that I am passionate about.

Ungulates will continue to come into contact with each other and risk the spread of this disease, we all know that... Risk, well truthfully focussing on game fencing around all man made artificial foods in my mind would be a more proactive approach and in the long run provide better results in relation to ungulates dirrect contact and concerns in congested areas.

No doubt there are a lot of things we could, should and likely will do in the future to mitigate the spread of disease....the big difference with baiting in regards to hunting is that there is nothing to do to prevent it from becoming yet another risk factor other than maintain the status quo. You seem to be agreeing that all these other practices can increase the risk of disease transmission yet you want to pile another one on top...it's an old arguement for sure but at the end of day......two wrongs still don't make a right.

Man has done lots of stupid things in the past and much of this stupidity continues and takes time to get rid of but why propogate the stupidity by adding to it? It makes zero sense, regardless of the arguement that we've done stupid things in the past.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

And what sense is that I might ask?

My point is why not go to the identified "root of the problem" ?

LC

I'm guessing you are not that naive It takes more Government will to tackle some problems than others. Not defending it...just saying that's how it is.

I fully agree with your point But yet you seem to be using that root problem as an arguement to legalize another problem...that's where we disagree. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm guessing you are not that naive It takes more Government will to tackle some problems than others. Not defending it...just saying that's how it is.

I fully agree with your point But yet you seem to be using that root problem as an arguement to legalize another problem...that's where we disagree. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think it should be legalized at all, not my words at all I was trying to point out the irony that baiting for anything other than hunting is legal, ok, endorsed, marketed, employed, used, talked about, etc....but I find it hypocritical the Gov't will allow baiting for certain things.....yet disallow it for others.

So why is it baiting for hunting is disallowed? is it an ethical arguement? the CWD arguement should be used for ANY type of baiting, whether hunting or photography is the excuse for using it.

Hence it should be all or none is what I said....I personally prefer none but I don't make the rules

Further to that....game farms should have as big or bigger a target than baiting for any purpose ever should.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Further to that....game farms should have as big or bigger a target than baiting for any purpose ever should.

LC

That seems to be the one thing that a lot of people seem to be missing here....baiting for hunting doesn't need to a target because it's not legal. We aren't trying to outlaw something here.....

As for your other points, I wholeheartedly agree, well other that it being all or none.....none is my answer

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Further to that....game farms should have as big or bigger a target than baiting for any purpose ever should.

LC

This statement I made is all encompassing....not just about hunting over bait.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Hence it should be all or none is what I said....I personally prefer none but I don't make the rules
LC

I guess we do agree....

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

This statement I made is all encompassing....not just about hunting over bait.

LC

I get the irony.......I just don't see an option A or B.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I don't think it should be legalized at all, not my words at all I was trying to point out the irony that baiting for anything other than hunting is legal, ok, endorsed, marketed, employed, used, talked about, etc....but I find it hypocritical the Gov't will allow baiting for certain things.....yet disallow it for others.

So why is it baiting for hunting is disallowed? is it an ethical arguement? the CWD arguement should be used for ANY type of baiting, whether hunting or photography is the excuse for using it.

Hence it should be all or none is what I said....I personally prefer none but I don't make the rules

Further to that....game farms should have as big or bigger a target than baiting for any purpose ever should.
LC

Lefty

You get it and I appreciate your voice in the matter, I wished the rest of the herd would get it...... I work in the oil and gas industry .... When we have a major incident , and these incidents can be all over the board from corrosion to safety training etc.... When one occurs ( A MAJOR INCIDENT)they set up a tap root committee, that disects every aspect of the incident .I would say we have a major incident in Alberta atleast it's appearing to be....Now it can take days or months of debate and interviewing individuals involved....... It's not a witch hunt but a way of tap rooting a problem from preventing a similar occurence.....

Now I believe Lefty so far and sheep are starting to get the real picture of cwd and how we are going to hopefully stop it or slow it or prevent it from happening if that is even possible, so far i don't buy the governments efforts ........ The government is sitting back so to speak ignoring the tap root of cwd and continuing to destroy a resource for many hunters , sportsman along the border all while allowing the domestication of Elk and deer province wide...There are huge risks allowing elk and deer farms to still be allowed province wide especially knowing some of these elk farms exist in cwd zones with in Alberta
What is wrong with this picture???...... Their are posters here arguing over and over baiting concentrates ungulates at these bait stations yet Elk and deer farmers are doing this exact method of feeding, supplementing their stock over and over in the same enclosures for years on end.....I think if we had a way of testing ungulates with in elk farms or deer farms before they are sold or distributed we could minimize the spread but we don't.... What are the risks and is the industry worth the spread .of cwd?...Of course this is my opinion but the government as far as I'm concerned are chasing their tail....
Tap root a problem , then take appropriate measures

Food for thought

Originally Posted by NIKON

Now I believe Lefty so far and sheep are starting to get the real picture of cwd

Or, perhaps you are just starting to listen rather than assume

My position or thoughts haven't changed from my first post in this thread but I'm glad you seem to be understanding me now. It's much more pleasant this way

I still don't believe we should have baiting in Alberta....

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Or, perhaps you are just starting to listen rather than assume

My position or thoughts haven't changed from my first post in this thread but I'm glad you seem to be understanding me now. It's much more pleasant this way

Sheep

I sometimes have a hard time reading into your posts...

I'm no writer as you can tell, but I'm a straight shooter i prefer not to beat around the bush....

I'm getting a better read on you now

I speak out cause it's already touched my home and my resource . I love to hunt , it's my passion .

Concerned border resident

Nikon

Originally Posted by NIKON

Sheep

I sometimes have a hard time reading into your posts...

I'm no writer as you can tell, but I'm a straight shooter i prefer not to beat around the bush....

I'm getting a better read on you now

I speak out cause it's already touched my home and my resource . I love to hunt , it's my passion .

Concerned border resident

Nikon

Sounds like we have a lot in common. Perhaps stop trying to read things into my posts and you'll be less confused

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Sounds like we have a lot in common. Perhaps stop trying to read things into my posts and you'll be less confused

Sheep

It appears we may

Try a slightly more direct approach , much easier for the masses

Nikon

Originally Posted by NIKON

Sheep

It appears we may

Try a slightly more direct approach , much easier for the masses

Nikon

LOL...not sure how much more direct I could be...this is a thread about baiting and I said I oppose baiting....nothing really to read into that...well or so I thought. The only facts germain to this discussion regarding CWD are that we have it in Alberta and how it is spread.

I know you have an axe to grind and no question a legitimate one but how CWD arrived in Alberta or if the culls were effective aren't germain to this discussion. Not saying they aren't important topics for another thread...just not in this thread. This thread was about baiting and there is concern about disease and baiting...that was my only reason for bringing CWD up......you following Refusing to be part of a hijack does not mean I have an opposing view, just that I don't want to be part of a hijack......you know, keep it direct.

There's been some respectful and productive discussion about baiting in this thread. The stuff on the prolifery...not so much

[shedcrazy]

Nixon,

I doubt you will find many ESRD staff that support game farms. That was taken away from their control when game farming first came to AB and they agreed with ABFG about their concerns. Agriculture runs game farming. None of the concerns were taken into account or followed. So focus your concerns, questions and letters on the right department. I would like to hear why agriculture still wants game farming if there is a true government concern over CWD.
So that is why ESRD doesn't support baiting and there is still game farming. Two different departments and two different policies.
Reminds me of AB Env policy on wetlands while AG was paying farmers to drain them.
Right or wrong AB strongest policy seems to be based on the dollar.

As far as baiting and the point of the thread....I am not a fan not only due to the disease issues but the high likelihood of non-native Sps being used and becoming an invasive Sps issue. That goes for hunting, trail cameras, wild flower mixes, bird feed, etc. Native ecosystems are just something I don't think are worth risking for minimal short-term gains. IMO