" Idle No More"

[Winch101]

This issue is not about race, or who,s smarter , or has more rights because they were here first .This IS about about bad government ( 30 yrs of Liberal.Eastern stewardship ) bad management , self-fish greed ,

We elected a majority conservative Gov,t , and those of us who voted them in want them to govern .There is no one over the age of 50 who doesnt believe the Tories can do at least as good a job as their predecessors...
please .
The tories try to get every canadian on the right side of the LAW...
and all hell; breaks loose. I am sure in this country that there are more
3 rd. generation caucasians on welfare , working the system...than there are
aboriginals .

As a life long tax payer , I have had enough of my tax dollars going to
anybody...brown , green or white who is living by gouging the coffers of
our national fund system Send an email. to Stephen Harper and the conservative party indicating that you are a Canadian who has enough
of every griper with an axe to grind bellying up to the trough ,
Time to tighten up Ranks ....and lay down the LAW.

Most our national ARMY is home now and there hasnt been a snow storm anywhere near Toronto of late . Bring out the army and clear the roads
especially around the Hockey Arenas. If Harper doesnt do the bidding of the majority ,he wont get another chance, and the alternatives arent that pretty.

There you got the proof of the proof cause its the proof when you got it.
I heard that somewhere oh ya CBC....

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

But I know single moms who have had this and more provided, and they have no native blood or status.

Then there is, or was, my oldest son. We were unable to provide for him because he had severe medical issues. The government stepped in and provided everything he needed for his short time with us.

We paid for the same insurance everyone else does. AHC, nothing more.
At that time AHC was free.

One can find cases that support either argument. Perhaps trying to understand the other side of the story would be helpful for both sides. And it certainly has nothing to do with the gov't lying to anyone. And the fact that those programs exist is probably a big reason why no gov't has been successful in reducing taxes - that sense of entitlement to that which was once given.

Don't worry Keg, I understand the other side - maybe better than many members of the "other side" do.

Yes, the Alberta Gov't does provide extra health benefits to low income people. Different issue, and one that I personally do not agree with. I have always said that if there is a farmer in this province who does not qualify for the Alberta Adult Health Benefit Plan then they need a new accountant Apparently the Hutterites have the right accounting services.

Then there is the issue of severe illness which is covered under another social program. This one I do agree with, and in the case of braces they may be covered for anyone if there is shown sufficient cause. In the case of my son it was determined that there wasn't sufficient health risk. In the case of the single mom withe the Native child it would seem the assessment was the same - insufficient health risk for special funding.

None of that has to do with a sense of entitlement that because you think you want it you should/deserve to have it, which is the only thing the original statement showed.

[FCLightning]

Edit didn't show to add to the above.

And it certainly has nothing to do with any gov't lying to anyone. The fact that these programs exist is probably a large part of why no gov't has been able to do anything about reducing taxes of any kind - that sense of entitlement to that which was once given.

[Mb-MBR]

As a life long tax payer , I have had enough of my tax dollars going to
anybody...brown , green or white who is living by gouging the coffers of
our national fund system Send an email. to Stephen Harper and the conservative party indicating that you are a Canadian who has enough
of every griper with an axe to grind bellying up to the trough ,

As I stated in previous post, the federal budget is approximatley 285 billion, what is spent by AANDC is 0.0358% of the federal budget, so there is a lot of suckling by others on the public teat.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by score

To me he sounds like a great leader, but a beaten one, who was doing the very best he could for his people by the way he saw the world.

No more beaten than Jesus was! Both were doing their best for their people, by the way they saw their world. If their words live on they live on.

[unclebuck]

Chief Spence should change her name to "Chief Walking Eagle, too full of $h!t to fly!! What a farce.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am glad to see that there is a check and balance for whether or not someone should get a free set of $8000 braces. "Normal" folk outside of the reserve have to purchase extra insurance to get such things as braces covered (even if they are single moms) and most of those insurance plans will pay 50% to a set maximum.
If anyone actually thinks that this excerpt is a "problem" then they have an attitude of entitlement. Now Sporty, what about routine dental work that the "normal" folk outside of reserves have to pay extra insurance premiums to have done - does she need to seek special permission to have that paid for or does she get a "freebie" there?

She's a single working mother, she's above the tax bracket to not receive any help from any social agency but far below the tax bracket to afford this on her own. There are agencies that will help but because her son is status, they tell her to go to his band first and as I posted, you see how that works. If they don't live on reserve, chief and council doesn't help them neither does AANDC.

Originally Posted by FCLightning

None of that has to do with a sense of entitlement that because you think you want it you should/deserve to have it, which is the only thing the original statement showed.

She doesn't get "freebies" period, I think you missed the whole gist of the what I posted and that wast to point out that FN's do not receive as many hand outs and freebies that people like to think they do. She pays for what she can afford and in this case it isn't a matter of luxury for her son's braces and the reason the cost of them is so high is because of the condition that is more than simply cosmetic. He has a problem with his jaw that shifts and causes discomfort when he eats. At any rate, thanks for missing the point ;p

[hornhead]

in my mind "Idle No More" is a great success.

it has opened up lots of dialogue on this site and other sites i frequent.

the pork chop in the teepee is kind of oboxious, but i can ignore her.

i am still not sure what they hope to achieve with INM , but the dialogue is quite interesting. sometimes there is a racist slant to the posts from both sides , but it has gotten people talking.

JMHO

[Ken07AOVette]

So are the protestors saying they are going to stop relying on government handouts and tax relief, and are all going to seek fulfilling employment?

Sounds good!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by hornhead

in my mind "Idle No More" is a great success.

it has opened up lots of dialogue on this site and other sites i frequent.

the pork chop in the teepee is kind of oboxious, but i can ignore her.

i am still not sure what they hope to achieve with INM , but the dialogue is quite interesting. sometimes there is a racist slant to the posts from both sides , but it has gotten people talking.

JMHO

Yeah, too bad about the "pork chop". Her demands overshadowed the Native's message. Here's what they want:

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpr...read-only3.jpg

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am glad to see that there is a check and balance for whether or not someone should get a free set of $8000 braces. "Normal" folk outside of the reserve have to purchase extra insurance to get such things as braces covered (even if they are single moms) and most of those insurance plans will pay 50% to a set maximum.
If anyone actually thinks that this excerpt is a "problem" then they have an attitude of entitlement. Now Sporty, what about routine dental work that the "normal" folk outside of reserves have to pay extra insurance premiums to have done - does she need to seek special permission to have that paid for or does she get a "freebie" there?

Well FCLightning, you clearly do not understand much about third party insurance and how much it costs or what coverage you get with it. You may want to check into Blue Cross coverage fr a family and see if you can afford the premiums and then get the kind of coverage you think you can get with it.

I actually had the same problem. I do have third party Blue Cross coverage. My dental coverage for my family is $600 per year. My son's braces are nearly $7000. IA refused despite the letters from the dentist and the specialist. I can't cough up $7000 just like that. I did call IA because my children are treaty. The jerk I spoke with said my son didn't need braces that bad, and if he needed them later in life, they would pay to have his teeth extracted. He then implied that my son was just a native kid, so why do I care.

Needless to say there are some serious issues with IA and how they treat the natives. I do support these bills, but do not support INM. I see these bills as a way to give more power to the individual bands so they can make decisions for their members without IA involvement. I do not understand then why the leadership on the bands would be against this, other then because it also expects accountability from the native leadership.

[bentley]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

So are the protestors saying they are going to stop relying on government handouts and tax relief, and are all going to seek fulfilling employment?

Sounds good!

I was wondering the same thing ? They seem to have all the time in the world to protest , none of them have to worry about a source of income .... maybe go get a job & stop living off everyone else . I'm not a redneck , just tired of all the bitching , crying the blues , save the baby seals type of crap . Get off the handouts and go get a job .

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by nick0danger

canuk shooter can you awnser this for me? i have done some research and it tells me that the bc natives signed different treaty than the rest of canada, and got kindofnthe raw end of the deal, perhaps that is why some or your oberservations dont jive with others? did bc native groups get a different treaty?

Most of the bands in BC have NO treaty! They are still deadlocked in treaty negotiations where the government loans them money for their side of the negotiations, presumably to be repaid from a future treaty settlement.

I believe there is one treaty signed on Vancouver island, Douglas Treaty. One on Nisga Lands and some of the bands in the north east fall under Treaty 8 (as far south as Summit Lake north of Prince George) :-).

CS

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Well FCLightning, you clearly do not understand much about third party insurance and how much it costs or what coverage you get with it. You may want to check into Blue Cross coverage fr a family and see if you can afford the premiums and then get the kind of coverage you think you can get with it.

I actually had the same problem. I do have third party Blue Cross coverage. My dental coverage for my family is $600 per year. My son's braces are nearly $7000. IA refused despite the letters from the dentist and the specialist. I can't cough up $7000 just like that. I did call IA because my children are treaty. The jerk I spoke with said my son didn't need braces that bad, and if he needed them later in life, they would pay to have his teeth extracted. He then implied that my son was just a native kid, so why do I care.

Needless to say there are some serious issues with IA and how they treat the natives. I do support these bills, but do not support INM. I see these bills as a way to give more power to the individual bands so they can make decisions for their members without IA involvement. I do not understand then why the leadership on the bands would be against this, other then because it also expects accountability from the native leadership.

Both of my children required extensive dental work that wasn't covered under our meager dental insurance plan. I didn't try to access funding to pay for it, I went to the bank and borrowed the money...I could have bought a nice truck with all the money I had to repay, but my children were worth the investment. They now have perfect teeth, unlike their parents. :-)

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Well FCLightning, you clearly do not understand much about third party insurance and how much it costs or what coverage you get with it. You may want to check into Blue Cross coverage fr a family and see if you can afford the premiums and then get the kind of coverage you think you can get with it.

I actually had the same problem. I do have third party Blue Cross coverage. My dental coverage for my family is $600 per year. My son's braces are nearly $7000. IA refused despite the letters from the dentist and the specialist. I can't cough up $7000 just like that. I did call IA because my children are treaty. The jerk I spoke with said my son didn't need braces that bad, and if he needed them later in life, they would pay to have his teeth extracted. He then implied that my son was just a native kid, so why do I care.

Needless to say there are some serious issues with IA and how they treat the natives. I do support these bills, but do not support INM. I see these bills as a way to give more power to the individual bands so they can make decisions for their members without IA involvement. I do not understand then why the leadership on the bands would be against this, other then because it also expects accountability from the native leadership.

I don't understand?
I think I know how much insurance costs - I do pay for it. I also know what I get covered, and I probably pay more than you do because I get more coverage than that - 50% on Orthodontics to a maximum of $1500 for any one individual. However, the work for my son was quoted at $10,000 and after sending in pictures and x-rays and all the rest any other source of funding was denied. And I can't blame some Indian Affairs for that so who do you think I should cry to? NO ONE that's who. Shopping around we could get the work done for $8000.
Yes, there are problems at Indian Affairs, but this is certainly not an example of anything buy entitlement and that most assuredly is not a problem at Indian Affairs - that is one of the problems at the other end of the stick.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I don't understand?
I think I know how much insurance costs - I do pay for it. I also know what I get covered, and I probably pay more than you do because I get more coverage than that - 50% on Orthodontics to a maximum of $1500 for any one individual. However, the work for my son was quoted at $10,000 and after sending in pictures and x-rays and all the rest any other source of funding was denied. And I can't blame some Indian Affairs for that so who do you think I should cry to? NO ONE that's who. Shopping around we could get the work done for $8000.
Yes, there are problems at Indian Affairs, but this is certainly not an example of anything buy entitlement and that most assuredly is not a problem at Indian Affairs - that is one of the problems at the other end of the stick.

This is the dental plan I have for my family with Blue Cross:

100% basic dental coverage for standard check-ups and cleanings, and 90% coverage for fillings, extractions, and root canals to a combined maximum of $600 per participant in each benefit year. (Three month waiting period from enrolment date.)

50% extensive dental for periodontics and dentures in the second year to a combined basic and extensive maximum of $1,000 per participant in the second and each subsequent benefit year. (12 month waiting period from enrolment date.)

50% extensive dental for crowns, bridges and implants in the third year to a combined basic and extensive maximum of $1,000 per participant in the third and each subsequent benefit year. (24 month waiting period from enrolment date.)

50% for orthodontics in the third year to a lifetime maximum of $1,500 per participant. (24 month waiting period from enrolment date.)

This is far from the amount needed for my son's dental work. For this coverage, I pay just under $300 per month. For many people, this kind of coverage is outside of their financial means. I can understand how the single mom in the post has a difficult time finding money for her child's needs.

As for taking out a loan to pay for the work, since I am self employed, it makes things much more difficult to get a loan the way my income works out. Added to that the damage my ex wife did to my credit with the support of our courts, getting a loan for dental work is not possible.

The big issue I wanted to make with the IA issue is how they do consider natives lesser citizens.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Winch101

Most our national ARMY is home now and there hasnt been a snow storm anywhere near Toronto of late . Bring out the army and clear the roads
especially around the Hockey Arenas. If Harper doesnt do the bidding of the majority ,he wont get another chance, and the alternatives arent that pretty.

There you got the proof of the proof cause its the proof when you got it.
I heard that somewhere oh ya CBC....

??

[hornhead]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yeah, too bad about the "pork chop". Her demands overshadowed the Native's message. Here's what they want:

http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpr...read-only3.jpg

link doesn't work. thx tho

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

This is far from the amount needed for my son's dental work. For this coverage, I pay just under $300 per month. For many people, this kind of coverage is outside of their financial means. I can understand how the single mom in the post has a difficult time finding money for her child's needs.

As for taking out a loan to pay for the work, since I am self employed, it makes things much more difficult to get a loan the way my income works out. Added to that the damage my ex wife did to my credit with the support of our courts, getting a loan for dental work is not possible.

The big issue I wanted to make with the IA issue is how they do consider natives lesser citizens.

Of course that plan is outside of the means of many folks. But why is that Indian Affairs problem? That plan is outside of the means of lots of white, asian, african and european folks as well, and not just single moms either. Whose problem is it when they can't get Orthodontic work paid for - not that the plan makes it much easier even for the folks who do have the plan as you well know. Being refused such treatment in no way makes the native person any lesser than any other person in the province as no one is given this service. Which is why I say that having an expectation that such service should be given simply illustrates a sense of entitlement to something which no one else has.
And since this was brought up to illustrate how no "freebies" are given to the native community, I would ask how much they have to pay to have regular dental work and eyeglasses provided - unless you are living below the poverty line in Alberta you will either buy insurance which will partially defray these costs or you will pay the entire shot yourself. Do only natives living below the poverty line get these things covered, or do all of them?

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Of course that plan is outside of the means of many folks. But why is that Indian Affairs problem? That plan is outside of the means of lots of white, asian, african and european folks as well, and not just single moms either. Whose problem is it when they can't get Orthodontic work paid for - not that the plan makes it much easier even for the folks who do have the plan as you well know. Being refused such treatment in no way makes the native person any lesser than any other person in the province as no one is given this service. Which is why I say that having an expectation that such service should be given simply illustrates a sense of entitlement to something which no one else has.
And since this was brought up to illustrate how no "freebies" are given to the native community, I would ask how much they have to pay to have regular dental work and eyeglasses provided - unless you are living below the poverty line in Alberta you will either buy insurance which will partially defray these costs or you will pay the entire shot yourself. Do only natives living below the poverty line get these things covered, or do all of them?

You must have ignored a large portion of this thread. IA has an obligation to treaty Natives for health care as is written in the various treaties.

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Of course that plan is outside of the means of many folks. But why is that Indian Affairs problem? That plan is outside of the means of lots of white, asian, african and european folks as well, and not just single moms either. Whose problem is it when they can't get Orthodontic work paid for - not that the plan makes it much easier even for the folks who do have the plan as you well know. Being refused such treatment in no way makes the native person any lesser than any other person in the province as no one is given this service. Which is why I say that having an expectation that such service should be given simply illustrates a sense of entitlement to something which no one else has.
And since this was brought up to illustrate how no "freebies" are given to the native community, I would ask how much they have to pay to have regular dental work and eyeglasses provided - unless you are living below the poverty line in Alberta you will either buy insurance which will partially defray these costs or you will pay the entire shot yourself. Do only natives living below the poverty line get these things covered, or do all of them?

FCLightning: I have throughout this thread continually pointed out that pursuant to treaties the Indians in Alberta and Saskatchewan have rights that the average person does not. One of those rights was free medical care. This has been interpreted to include basic dental care and eyeglasses. The Treaty Six Indians gave up their claim to 121,000 square miles of land in exchange to this right and others including special hunting rights. The land claim they gave up included the rights to the minerals and oil/gas under the land. I suggest that Canada got a pretty good bargain. If you think otherwise, how many square miles of land do you think we should offer to return to the Treaty Six Indians for them to give up the benefit of medical care as provided in the Treaty?

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

You must have ignored a large portion of this thread. IA has an obligation to treaty Natives for health care as is written in the various treaties.

I didn't ignore anything. They receive the same level of health care as everyone else - and a little extra.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

One of those rights was free medical care. This has been interpreted to include basic dental care and eyeglasses.

I am not saying it is wrong, simply pointing out the fact that the interpretation of free medical care for the non-native working citizens of this country is different than the interpretation for natives and those on social assistance. Natives enjoy a broader interpretation than most people in this country do and for some folks on here that does not seem to be enough.

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am not saying it is wrong, simply pointing out the fact that the interpretation of free medical care for the non-native working citizens of this country is different than the interpretation for natives and those on social assistance. Natives enjoy a broader interpretation than most people in this country do and for some folks on here that does not seem to be enough.

I again say that Indians obtained special rights pursuant to the Treaties. There was nothing in Treaty Six that says that the right of Indians to medical care would be limited to the equivalent of the right on non Indians with an income below a certain level.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I didn't ignore anything. They receive the same level of health care as everyone else - and a little extra.

Your ignorance of the various treaties and what was promised by them is very clear.

The Government of Canada's role in Aboriginal health care

The federal government provides health promotion programs and public health services on First Nations reserves and in identified Inuit communities. In remote and isolated areas, where provincially or territorially insured services are not readily available, the Government of Canada provides on-reserve primary and emergency care services.

Non-Insured Health Benefits are also provided to approximately 749,000 eligible First Nations and Inuit people. Coverage includes a specified range of medical goods and services (such as prescription drugs, vision care, dental services, medical supplies and equipment, and medical transportation) when these benefits are not provided through private or provincial/territorial health insurance plans.

Provincial governments provide universal insured health services to all citizens, including all Aboriginal people. First Nations and Inuit access health services provided by the provincial or territorial government (notably physician or hospital care), like any other resident.

In the Territories , the federal government has mostly devolved health services to the territorial governments, with the exception of some health promotion and disease prevention programs among First Nations and Inuit.

When my son was recommended for braces, the employer I was working for had a plan I was under. But it would only pay out after all other plans payed out first. IA initially agreed for the treatment and then changed their mind. Because IA was initially involved, my plan would not pay out. I no longer work for that company, and now have Blue cross, but have just started it this past year, so not eligible for the higher levels of coverage yet. So in the mean time, my son gets older, and the treatment gets more expensive because it gets harder to treat.

[cds]

.Updated: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 08:49:58 GMT | By CBC News, cbc.caAttawapiskat audit finds 'no evidence of due diligence'

The accounting firm hired to audit the finances of the troubled Attawapiskat First Nation reserve in northern Ontario says there is little or no documentation for millions of dollars spent by the band, CBC News has learned.

The unreleased audit was intended to ensure that more than $100 million provided by the federal government to Attawapiskat between April 2005 and November 2011 was spent as it should have been.

CBC News has obtained a copy of the audit. The funding was intended for housing, sewage, education and other services.

In a letter dated Sept. 20, 2012, that was written by Deloitte to Chief Theresa Spence and copied to the Department of Aboriginal Affairs, that auditing firm says that of 505 transactions reviewed, more than 400 lacked proper documentation.

Top news.Man attacked by Oompa Loompas outside barDaughter allowed to visit aging father at veterans centreCalgary on rat hunt after sightingKuwait Twitter insult brings 2-year sentenceQuiz: Where did Hugo Chavez seek cancer treatment?The letter says "an average of 81 per cent of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60 per cent had no documentation of the reason for payment."

The letter to Spence also says there is "no evidence of due diligence on the part of Attawapiskat of funding provided by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada for housing projects and Health Canada for health-related projects."

Deloitte said it could not conclude that the payments made by the band council were in accordance with the terms and conditions of funding agreements with the federal government.

Deloitte reported its finding to Spence in late August. It's not known what she or the band council did in response to the findings.

State of emergency declared last winter

Spence declared a state of emergency on the reserve in the fall of 2011, citing a critical need for housing.

Amid much media coverage, the federal government pledged to provide emergency housing. About two dozen modular homes were built and trucked to the community over last winter's ice roads.

Spence has been on a hunger strike since Dec. 11, camped out in an aboriginal education centre on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River between downtown Ottawa and Gatineau, Que. She's demanding a meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Gov. Gen. David Johnston to discuss what she characterizes as "treaty issues" between First Nations and the Crown.

Harper agreed to meet with First Nations chiefs this Friday and Spence has said she will attend, but is not giving up her hunger strike until she sees the outcome of the meeting.

On Friday, reporters asked Grand Chief Stan Louttit, who represents the northern Ontario region that includes Attawapiskat, about the status of the audit, which the band council agreed to when the First Nations problems first came under scrutiny.

"It is very, very difficult to do business in a remote community," Louttit said. "The average Canadian out there, they see millions and millions, and they just get concerned and said, 'Hey, there's something going on there.'

"But I challenge those people, come to the community and look at the books, and come and live there for a couple of weeks and you'll see," he said.

"The audit speaks for itself," said Jan O'Driscoll, the press secretary for Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan. "We agree with its conclusions and recommendations."

[KCL]

Originally Posted by hornhead

link doesn't work. thx tho

Even the links ABOUT natives don't work.

[waterhawk]

FCLightning: In my post #301, I stated that one of the rights given to Indians pursuant to Treaty Six was free medical care. I feel guilty that I may have misled you on that point. Treaty Six says as follows about medical care:

That a medicine chest shall be kept at the house of each Indian Agent for the use and benefit of the Indians at the direction of such agent.

[Twisted Canuck]

As posted by cds above the link to the story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...it-monday.html

No surprise there though, other than CBC finally doing an article that involved investigative journalism that was critical of a minority.

[Sporty]

This is the change in the Indian Act that INM is protesting

Indian Act: First Nations communities can now lease designated reserve lands if a majority attending a meeting called for that purpose vote to do so, regardless of how many people show up. Previously, approval required the support of a majority of eligible voters.

The Aboriginal Affairs minister can call the meeting to consider surrendering band territory. The minister can choose to ignore a resolution from the band council that's in opposition to a decision at the meeting

There I understand why they have an issue with it. If a Band chooses not to lease any designated lands, John Duncan can step in and force it anyway. This Bill isn't changing things in the Indian Act that Canadians want to see like absolving the treaties, it is simply changing policies that gives the government an upper hand when it comes to their land. So big business wants to build a pipeline through a reserve, it will. Not surprising is John Duncan is from Vancouver Island, his interests are no different than Spence's agenda IMO.

This whole bill is so the NGPL can move through

As I've previously stated, people should have looked past INM and Spence especially and focused on the bill. INM and Spence distracted people so now in order to spite FN's and bite themselves in the butt, they ignored the rest of the bill that affects all Canadians equally.