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[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

bc is right next door. wide variety of species and xbows legal in archery season for 20 plus years.

Ya but everyone knows B.C has always been more relaxed...........

Shed crazy thanx for that, thats great info about our cousin states.

[russ]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

bc is right next door. wide variety of species and xbows legal in archery season for 20 plus years.

and the majority of BC last year had Sept 1-Sept 9 for Whitetails & Mule Deer, some regions had a moose season a/o elk season & then some small management areas in most regions had seasons for whitetail & mule deer in December.

Archery seasons in BC seem to be very limited in scope in BC, the majority of the regions focusing on Whitetail & mule deer and some of the regions having an elk and / or moose season.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...g/regulations/

I'll say one thing, at least the Alberta regulations are easier to follow.

[shedcrazy]

Again using BC is not comparing the same thing. Yes BC does include crossbows but as stated already their seasons are quite different.
An example: There is a week archery season for elk before the rut in Southern BC and then a long general season (6 pt) during the rut. Compare that to many areas in Alberta that are general archery in the rut and a draw for rifle.
Which area do you think would be affected more by including crossbows? As well, do you think that the percent of crossbow hunters coming from the archery ranks would be the same in each province?

So I have a problem when I read the "Stats" of crossbow hunting when they are not comparing apples to apples.

While searching I noticed that many states have included crossbows in the muzzle loader season and general seasons just like Alberta. Again this seems like another issue of leave it alone.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

BC's archery season length depends on where and what you are hunting. In some cases the season is as short as 8 days, in others it's as long as 4 1/2 months. Sometimes their season is split so that you get time at the front and time at the back. Regardless, I doubt their season lengths were set because of crossbows but rather because of the BC Wildlife Federation and the wants of their members..

Their regulations aren't that hard to figure out.

[russ]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Their regulations aren't that hard to figure out.

I was referring to the matrix layout that you have in the Alberta reg's, it's a lot easier to follow than BC's layout.

[Rob Miskosky]

I agree. I like ours a lot better as well.

[Duk Dog]

Just some perspective from a different province, I'll add more details as I get them. I asked my brother in law in Ontario how their seasons are split up. Here is the gist of his reply.

Yes crossbows are only allowed during the archery season, which runs from Oct 1st to Dec 31st. Yes separate week for muzzle loaders. Rifle season is 6 days. You buy a buck tag and apply for a doe tag. Alot of zones give extra tags for archery. Last year the area he is in had an extra 150, and a nearby area had an extra 1500 he believes.

[russ]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Just some perspective from a different province, I'll add more details as I get them. I asked my brother in law in Ontario how their seasons are split up. Here is the gist of his reply.

Yes crossbows are only allowed during the archery season, which runs from Oct 1st to Dec 31st. Yes separate week for muzzle loaders. Rifle season is 6 days. You buy a buck tag and apply for a doe tag. Alot of zones give extra tags for archery. Last year the area he is in had an extra 150, and a nearby area had an extra 1500 he believes.

Ontario is a pretty big chunk of land, care to share which part of the province he hunts?

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by russ

Ontario is a pretty big chunk of land, care to share which part of the province he hunts?

Sure SW. Within a few hours of both London and Toronto. As I get more info from him I'll add it to my post. As you can see their gun seasons are very short - and obviously they have a rather generous archery season, which includes both compound and cross bows.

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Again using BC is not comparing the same thing. Yes BC does include crossbows but as stated already their seasons are quite different.
An example: There is a week archery season for elk before the rut in Southern BC and then a long general season (6 pt) during the rut. Compare that to many areas in Alberta that are general archery in the rut and a draw for rifle.
Which area do you think would be affected more by including crossbows? As well, do you think that the percent of crossbow hunters coming from the archery ranks would be the same in each province?

So I have a problem when I read the "Stats" of crossbow hunting when they are not comparing apples to apples.

While searching I noticed that many states have included crossbows in the muzzle loader season and general seasons just like Alberta. Again this seems like another issue of leave it alone.

If you are looking for an idenical comparison shed, then you are correct, it doesn't exist...it can't. But, if you take a look at the states and provinces that have extensive rifle hunting opportunities and fairly liberal archery seasons, you will definitely see a trend. Like most statistics, if you remove the extreme examples at both ends and compare the data set that's closest to Albertas seasons, you do come up with what is likely a fair extrapolation of what would happen in Alberta. It seems both proponents and opponents would rather focus on the extreme examples.

There's no doubt there would be an initial spike in crossbow hunters but it would settle out in time. I doubt we'd ultimately see a doubling in archer numbers but close and the number of crossbow/vertical bow users would settle out around 50/50. Some crossbow users would definitely come out of the ranks of current vertical bow users, a percentage would use both and there would be an initial spike of new users but we'd lose many of these in the first five years as they realized the challenges of crossbow hunting are pretty well equal to that of vertical bows.

I'm not sure why people so want to discredit these numbers. I'm far from the only one that has arrived at this conclusion. Doubling Alberta's current archer numbers would have a considerable impact on archery seasons. If you are anti crossbow, I don't really see the need to worse case scenario it any more than that. The impact on the archery season we know today would be considerable. The numbers could be argued forever and you are correct that there is no identical case to Alberta but ultimately what do the numbers matter. Isn't the real question whether crossbows belong in archery season, regardless of the numbers? If they do belong, these new hunters should be welcomed with open arms regardless of numbers. If they don't, then even one is too many. It seems many have lost focus of the real question......

I don't want them in my season because it will affect my opportunity is a pretty poor excuse to oppose crossbows and as I've said before has a strong odour of greed. I don't want them in archery season because they don't belong because their mechanical differences don't fit the definition of archery equipment, now that's an arguement that can be respected.

[pottymouth]

Sheep, what's your stance on muzzle loaders belonging in a rifle season?

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Sheep, what's your stance on muzzle loaders belonging in a rifle season?

Muzzleloaders are already permitted in rifle season. Personally, I'd like to see a seperate season for muzzleloaders though. I'm pretty sure I've said that countless times on this board though.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Muzzleloaders are already permitted in rifle season. Personally, I'd liken to see a seperate season for muzzleloaders though. I'm pretty sure I've said that countless times on this board though.

I agree with you, wouldn't be great to have a season that ran from dec1-18 perhaps in some zones, and even a Oct 17- Oct 31 in some other zones.
Something like that would definatley make me and others try muzzle loaders.I don't see any negative reprocasion for something like that '' in my opinion''

[shedcrazy]

I'm not sure why people so want to discredit these numbers. I'm far from the only one that has arrived at this conclusion.

What numbers??? There is a lot of info out there and several sides presenting data. Sorry you are just as guilty with comments like that. It likes stating your numbers are right and everyone else's are wrong. Honestly I doubt anyone knows the affect it will have on harvest and or archery hunter numbers in Alberta. My comments about comparing like areas is mainly due to the fact that most of the data I have read (no doubt much more out there) is based on non-draw animals in areas of limited sps. If there is other data out there please do share. It would be nice to have accurate info on the issue that will affect many hunters.

I don't want them in my season because it will affect my opportunity is a pretty poor excuse to oppose crossbows and as I've said before has a strong odour of greed.

Your right I am greedy. I would prefer accurate info before making decisions that might affect future wildlife management, more opportunities to hunt different sps and less draws.

[russ]

It's really funny how that word "greedy" keeps coming up. I've alway related it to wanting more, rather than keeping something.

And yes, I'm still interested in seeing the numbers backing up assertions made.

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

What numbers??? There is a lot of info out there and several sides presenting data. Sorry you are just as guilty with comments like that. It likes stating your numbers are right and everyone else's are wrong. Honestly I doubt anyone knows the affect it will have on harvest and or archery hunter numbers in Alberta. My comments about comparing like areas is mainly due to the fact that most of the data I have read (no doubt much more out there) is based on non-draw animals in areas of limited sps. If there is other data out there please do share. It would be nice to have accurate info on the issue that will affect many hunters.



Your right I am greedy. I would prefer accurate info before making decisions that might affect future wildlife management, more opportunities to hunt different sps and less draws.

Shed, there are thousands of pages of data out there and it has been poured over and rehashed for years. I guess it all comes down to what you wish to glean from it. I'm pretty satisfied after reading much of it that the conclusion I share with many others, on both sides of the debate is accurate. And I ask again, isn't the real question do crossbows belong in archery season...not how many people they'll bring to infringe upon current archery opportunities? Say the government said that only 1,000 crossbow users could oparticipate in archery season. Would you be okay with crossbows in archery season then? I think archers need to keep their eye on the real issue here and that's whether crossbows belong or not, regardless of numbers. I can't see how saying they belong if there's not too many of them isn't opening a Pandora's Box that can never be closed. If some are okay...they all have to be. You can't be a little bit pregnant.................It's all or nothing.

Originally Posted by russ

It's really funny how that word "greedy" keeps coming up. I've alway related it to wanting more, rather than keeping something.

I guess you could look at it that way but it could also be construed as not wishing to share.

And yes, I'm still interested in seeing the numbers backing up assertions made.

Just click on Google at the top of your browser...there are thousands of pages of them.

[russ]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Shed, there are thousands of pages of data out there and it has been poured over and rehashed for years. I guess it all comes down to what you wish to glean from it. I'm pretty satisfied after reading much of it that the conclusion I share with many others, on both sides of the debate is accurate. And I ask again, isn't the real question do crossbows belong in archery season...not how many people they'll bring to infringe upon current archery opportunities? Say the government said that only 1,000 crossbow users could oparticipate in archery season. Would you be okay with crossbows in archery season then? I think archers need to keep their eye on the real issue here and that's whether crossbows belong or not, regardless of numbers. I can't see how saying they belong if there's not too many of them isn't opening a Pandora's Box that can never be closed. If some are okay...they all have to be. You can't be a little bit pregnant.................It's all or nothing.

This is the problem, people keep referring to studies, but never citing any of them specifically. I think that's the point shed's trying to make.

Originally Posted by russ

This is the problem, people keep referring to studies, but never citing any of them specifically. I think that's the point shed's trying to make.

Studies and stats have been cited to death...even on the pages of AO. It's up to you to glean what you wish from them. It just seems that those strongly opposed or in favour keep forgetting or summarily discounting. The info is there if you really want to read it......

The problem with individual stats is that it's easy to cherrypick holes in them and why I have no interest in posting them any more. If you look at them as a whole and really analyze the trends, there are trends there but I agree, it's easier just to cherry pick and learn nothing.

And I ask you, are you okay with crossbows in archery season if it doesn't impact your personal hunting opportunities or experiences.

[russ]

It's not up to me to verify your statements sheep, I have NO idea which study you're using as a reference.

Originally Posted by russ

It's not up to me to verify your statements sheep, I have NO idea which study you're using as a reference.

And the good thing is, I'm not looking for you to verify them. I'm quite content what I've gleaned from them is accurate. I have no desire to prove it to you or anyone else. If you wish to discount what I say....start reading.....

I've just done all this research so I personally can make an informed decision. Perhaps you don't see the need for that.

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by russ

This is the problem, people keep referring to studies, but never citing any of them specifically. I think that's the point shed's trying to make.

Actually I did in a post here or the other thread....can't remember. It took me less then a hour to find a few relevant articles. One used hard numbers from Ohio, which is a state that anti xbowers like to use for their numbers, then debunked them.

I then challenged ANYONE to come up with ANYTHING better and nobody even tried (on the anti xbow side). Or maybe they did but couldn't find anything (more likely).

I'm really trying to stay out of this discussion, but its tough.

One of the interesting studies I read (please don't ask me where) basically concluded that there is a spike in crossbow users initially but as people typically only have a certain number of days to hunt in year, they found out that crossbow hunting, like vertical bow hunting requires a lot of time and dedication for little results so they went back to weapons with higher success rates and used their limited hunting days in those seasons. These were users that previously weren't archers.

[russ]

check out the bag limits...

http://www.state.tn.us/twra/pdfs/huntguide.pdf

3 antlerless / day
4 bucks / year

Oh and no predator calling while NIGHT hunting

While this position paper is produced by a crossbow company and it should be looked at with both eyes open, there is some solid info here, among a liberal dose of propeganda.

Take it for what it's worth.

http://www.tenpointcrossbows.com/arc...tion_paper.pdf


If nothing else, the myth section is worth paying attention to.

[shedcrazy]

From what I gather then there is no data on crossbow hunting and/or harvest besides WTDE in general seasons with increasing populations. At least we can put that one to rest.

Once I see that data (on any type of Xbow hunting besides on WTDE) then I will make my opinion as I am still on the fence.

Although I do think think both weapon have limited range, basic hunting styles, skill, etc. I do think there is a difference. The main difference is being already drawn before the game animal has shown itself. Is this a big enough difference to seperate the weapons? I am unsure. There seems to be some agreement that certain sps harvests will increase so there must be some advantages.

I hope the big game managers look into this in some detail.

I guess the next discussion will be about smokeless powder in muzzle loaders!

There seems to be some agreement that certain sps harvests will increase so there must be some advantages.

LOL...I haven't seen agreement on anything yet.

I think regardless, you could count on the archery harvest doubling for most species. Not from a mechanical advantage, just sheer numbers of participants.

[shedcrazy]

LOL Ok...some of us will agree!

[QUOTE][I think regardless, you could count on the archery harvest doubling for most species. Not from a mechanical advantage, just sheer numbers of participants. /QUOTE]

I agree with most of this (not concinved yet that it is nothing to do with the weapon). Just not sure if this is good or bad. With spotty harvest and population data it could really affect local populations on fringe sps. Due to budget reductions it could be several yrs before an area is surveyed and we all know how little hunter harvest data is colelcted.

Again I think this is more complicated than it seems with wildlife management and the question I ask...What is the gain when the weapon is already allowed in general and primitive weapon seasons? Is the limited gain (again a weapon that is allowed already) worth the unknown with our wildlife (ie possible doubling of the harvest)?

[Stinky Buffalo]

I think regardless, you could count on the archery harvest doubling for most species. Not from a mechanical advantage, just sheer numbers of participants.

That being said, the number of archery participants will double anyhow, regardless of whether crossbows are added to the archery season. It'll just take more time to happen, as Alberta's population grows... Along with the possibility of losing non-draw opporunities.

Makes the crossbow exclusion argument on that basis a moot point, no?

Originally Posted by Stinky Buffalo

That being said, the number of archery participants will double anyhow, regardless of whether crossbows are added to the archery season. It'll just take more time to happen, as Alberta's population grows... Along with the possibility of losing non-draw opporunities.

Possibly but hunters numbers have declined severly from the 70s and 80s and are are only now beginning to show some rebound. I'm not sure you'd see a doubling in the number of archers ever, especially when species like mule deer and moose are placed on draw. Many archers participate strictly for the additional opportunities and if they disappear, I'm sure archers would too. Same as crossbow hunters if they were included in archery season I suspect.