Evolution vs Creation

[raab]

Originally Posted by alta270

Yeah, it is not like these guys have any prejudice's, do they? From their "About" page:

Linking religious, political, and economic liberty, the Judeo-Christian culture has established the rule of law, codified respect for human rights and conceived constitutional democracy. It has engendered development of science and technology, as well as economic creativity and innovation.

Sounds pretty fundamentalist to me. Go get a credible source, as any source that presupposes an outcome, as they do, is not credible. Ever.

The paper is on research and raises some valuable questions. Just because you dont like their mission statement doesnt means their arguments are invalid. Especially when they use other researchers work to back up the positions.

[raab]

Originally Posted by duck duck goose

Sorry Raab, I started reading it but will have to respectfully disagree that this article is a reliable argument. The first point that they make "Early atmospheric conditions on earth were nothing like the Miller Urey experiment" I think they are too far back in the geological time scale and are taking that as evidence. To me it reads that the Miller Urey experiment is impossible because before all of the water condensed, there was no water!?!(Simplified explanation) Well obviously there was a point in time before the primordial soup existed, but then all of the water vapor condensed and created the primordial soup. So I would say this argument is invalid.

Next...
geological studies have not uncovered evidence that a primordial soup once existed.9
-There is ample geological evidence that the earth was covered in shallow seas that moved around with the movement of tectonic plates.

Then they went into the components of volcanic gasses:
volcanic gasses do not contain methane or ammonia, and are not reducing.
-A quick Google search will disprove this statement

Anyway after disagreeing with every point the author made I am going to forego reading further. If you have a favorite point that you care to debate let me know, but I am not going through the whole article.

Problems 5 and 6. The Fossil record is either missing intermediate species or as in the case of whales have transitioned far quicker then probable. Also the explosion of species found in the fossil record would not support the common ancestor theory.

Regarding point 6 if we were all linked to a common ancestor should we not all have similar DNA that can be easily traced backed to that ancestor?

For me I believe that a variety of species were created and evolved from their to conform to their geographical location using micro evolution.

[silverdoctor]

Even science beats itself up now and then. Take a palaeontologist that discovers a new species of dinosaur, it truly is a major career booster - money, glory, fame etc. But then, another palaeontologist comes along and steps on it. It's not hard to take offence to it, but it is what it is. Horner and Goodwin are a good example.

Jack Horner realized that 3 apparently different species of dinosaurs may now be just one. According to Horner, Dracorex, Stygimoloch are juvenile Pachycephalosaurus. Same goes for T-rex, what was thought to be a separate species turns out to be a baby T-rex. Same goes for Triceratops. Juveniles at different ages were declared different species.

They now strongly suspect that many dino's carried some major colorations and feathers. T-rex was likely feathered and colorful - not the green machine that we all come to know and love.

They are able to bring prehistoric birds back to life on paper in full color due to research on their melanosomes.

Science evolves, changes, theories change.


If you really want to fry the old noodle, have a watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ms04x6MvMY

[Donkey Oatey]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...o-creationist/

Rebuttal to questions by creationists.

[Okotokian]

Man, and I thought Trump threads were way off the purpose of this forum.....

[fitzy]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Man, and I thought Trump threads were way off the purpose of this forum.....

In all honesty I'm floored this thing is still dodging the lock.

I do love a good religious discussion. People that believe fascinate me.

[alta270]

Originally Posted by stringer

http://evolutionfacts.com/Ev-V2/2evlch15.htm

Really? I mean, REALLY?

A site with on their home page has a "Creationist Organizations" tab? Really?

You can do better than that. Let's see credible, not soaked in fundamentalist creationist, sources. These guys are peddling the same old tropes that creationists have been peddling for years... nothing new, ever.

Come on guys. We understand you have a presupposition to believe the creationist sites. But at least grant the rest of us an avoidance to the indignity of the inane tropes they spew out. Go find real evidence, not made up stuff by individuals who have no, none at all, understanding of science.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...o-creationist/

Rebuttal to questions by creationists.

A good article and written in such a way that non scientific minds can understand the positions

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by duck duck goose

How about this for a question, does anyone see a possibility that a higher power exists AND evolution occurred? .

I can sort of see that. I can see a possibility of a higher power responsible for intelligent design and a power without beginning and without end. I can see evolution occurring constantly. Present scientific thinkers seem to think everything must have a beginning and an end. Maybe science is no where near absolute truth and there may be something that has always been?

If there is a higher power I would think that would be more in line with my idea of God than some invisible magic guy that lives in the sky. I think that some part of this higher power would be the life that dwells in all life as we know it.

[alta270]

Originally Posted by fitzy

In all honesty I'm floored this thing is still dodging the lock.

I do love a good religious discussion. People that believe fascinate me.

So far, people have avoided personal attacks. I think that is normally the issue of locked threads in most forums. Not too much religion has been thrown in, although we've seen the odd bible passage quoted. Not sure why, because it really doesn't bolster the creationists points.

[fitzy]

Originally Posted by alta270

So far, people have avoided personal attacks. I think that is normally the issue of locked threads in most forums. Not too much religion has been thrown in, although we've seen the odd bible passage quoted. Not sure why, because it really doesn't bolster the creationists points.

I actually understand why a lot of people need religious beliefs. It would be nice to have a safety net for everything.
The Bible has so many holes and contradictions though that I can't imagine using it for anything but entertainment.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by fargineyesore

Interesting how those that don't believe in creation seem to feel the need to infer that anyone that does not believe in evolution is somehow less intelligent, etc.

Sounds like the climate-change debate.

Why can't those that do not believe in either be just those that do not believe?

[fitzy]

Well done fellas on keeping it clean.

[Chargerguy]

Originally Posted by EZM

Didn't the last rag article you just posted turn out to be a known spoof website? And now you are referencing Jeff Rense's Fake news site - He is Conspiracy Radio Host - you are aware of that are you not?.

It's another 3 dollar bill.

The article is the same regardless. It's tough to get a full copy of it without paying for an online subscription.

[silverdoctor]

Lets really mess up some minds.

Do people believe that stars and galaxies are millions and hundreds of millions of light years away? Light years is a measure of distance - not time - almost 6 trillion miles per light year...

When you look up at the sky, and see the light from stars or galaxies - people do realize that you're seeing the past right? The light that hits your eye began it's journey millions and millions of years ago. We are seeing the past - what the stars and galaxies looked like very early on.

So when a telescope - say the outdated Hubble - take a picture of a galaxy 100 million light years away - we are seeing that galaxy as it was 100 million years ago. Not a clue what it looks like right now.

If the sun burned out today - it would still take 8 minutes for the people on earth to realize it.


If the heavens and earth really are 6000 years old, or even 15000 years old - explain that to me.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Until you need a hospital.

I think we are living longer but not living better or healthier. I think that evolution may have improved some species and did improve mankind up to the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution. I think as a species we are in a reverse evolution with respect to our physical health. Disease seems to be more the norm than good health.

[Bushrat]

I think that our earth, a pinpoint sized pebble, in an infinite sea of galaxies with billions of stars, planets, etc,. that the odds our planet is the only one with life is so low it's pretty much statistically impossible. If we are here there are other forms of intelligent life elsewhere, many probably much more evolved than us, some much less. Unfathomable not to be. Thinking we are somebody or something else's science fair project...Whoever put us here probably got a huge grant from their government....they're looking down at us through their interstellar monocle pondering how the bacteria they put here can evolve so fast .....or slow.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

I think we are living longer but not living better or healthier. I think that evolution may have improved some species and did improve mankind up to the agricultural revolution and the industrial revolution. I think as a species we are in a reverse evolution with respect to our physical health. Disease seems to be more the norm than good health.

Nope. It's just that 75% of the stuff that people complain about now would have been laughed off as normal 400 years ago.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Lets really mess up some minds.

Do people believe that stars and galaxies are millions and hundreds of millions of light years away? Light years is a measure of distance - not time - almost 6 trillion miles per light year...

When you look up at the sky, and see the light from stars or galaxies - people do realize that you're seeing the past right? The light that hits your eye began it's journey millions and millions of years ago. We are seeing the past - what the stars and galaxies looked like very early on.

So when a telescope - say the outdated Hubble - take a picture of a galaxy 100 million light years away - we are seeing that galaxy as it was 100 million years ago. Not a clue what it looks like right now.

If the sun burned out today - it would still take 8 minutes for the people on earth to realize it.


If the heavens and earth really are 6000 years old, or even 15000 years old - explain that to me.

The earth is way older than 15000 years

Those who want to believe in the God of the Bible should know that no where in the Bible is there a statement on the age of the earth. Those who use the Bible stories to compute the earth's age should not be so literal and not get hung up on the words "In the beginning".

Most of those who want to take the bible as literal should realize that many times God is portrayed as having human characteristics and not good characteristics. Sometime more like a woman scorned on a bad hair day.

Never let religious people tell you how you should read the Bible and don't ever read a bible with side notes because that is just pushing an agenda.

I recommend everyone so inclined to read the Bible to do it on their own terms.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

The earth is way older than 15000 years

Those who want to believe in the God of the Bible should know that no where in the Bible is there a statement on the age of the earth. Those who use the Bible stories to compute the earth's age should not be so literal and not get hung up on the words "In the beginning".

Most of those who want to take the bible as literal should realize that many times God is portrayed as having human characteristics and not good characteristics. Sometime more like a woman scorned on a bad hair day.

Never let religious people tell you how you should read the Bible and don't ever read a bible with side notes because that is just pushing an agenda.

I recommend everyone so inclined to read the Bible to do it on their own terms.

I'm not asking the question to ridicule peoples' belief, I'm asking the question to get people thinking.

If the earth and stars were created say a million years ago - we wouldn't be able to see galaxies that are 100 million light years away for another 99 million years.

[raab]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

The earth is way older than 15000 years

Those who want to believe in the God of the Bible should know that no where in the Bible is there a statement on the age of the earth. Those who use the Bible stories to compute the earth's age should not be so literal and not get hung up on the words "In the beginning".

Most of those who want to take the bible as literal should realize that many times God is portrayed as having human characteristics and not good characteristics. Sometime more like a woman scorned on a bad hair day.

Never let religious people tell you how you should read the Bible and don't ever read a bible with side notes because that is just pushing an agenda.

I recommend everyone so inclined to read the Bible to do it on their own terms.

I really dont see what this has to do with the bible. Youre either for intelligent design or against it. Darwinist dont believe in intelligent design and believe that we came out of a primordial ooze despite the fact that amino acids actually repel away from each other in water. They also seem to think they know what the atmosphere and environment was like in the beginning.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by raab

Darwinist dont believe in intelligent design and believe that we came out of a primordial ooze despite the fact that amino acids actually repel away from each other in water. They also seem to think they know what the atmosphere and environment was like in the beginning.

Evolutionary science does not attempt explain the origin or life, only how it has diversified over the last few billion years.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by raab

They also seem to think they know what the atmosphere and environment was like in the beginning.

Lets touch on this point. It's believed the earth formed due to colliding rock, dirt etc. Over millions of years it formed a large lump. Imagine how hot it would get, having a large lump of rock in space, large enough to build it's own gravity and pull more rock and debris.

People ask - how does it happen? One rock won't have gravity or if two rocks collide, why would they stick together? Well, experiments are fun - pick a theory or hypothesis and put it to the test.

Go look at your salt shaker, now shake out some salt - they don't stick together. Neither does sugar. In space it's a different story due to microgravity. Theory proven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0kteyMDnwE

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by raab

I really dont see what this has to do with the bible. Youre either for intelligent design or against it. Darwinist dont believe in intelligent design and believe that we came out of a primordial ooze despite the fact that amino acids actually repel away from each other in water. They also seem to think they know what the atmosphere and environment was like in the beginning.

All ID theory is based on Bibliquesque teachings. ID was envisioned and created as a mechanism to do an end run around prohibitions against teaching creationism in science classrooms. That is its origins in that is where its adherants true intentions run.

[raab]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Lets touch on this point. It's believed the earth formed due to colliding rock, dirt etc. Over millions of years it formed a large lump. Imagine how hot it would get, having a large lump of rock in space, large enough to build it's own gravity and pull more rock and debris.

People ask - how does it happen? One rock won't have gravity or if two rocks collide, why would they stick together? Well, experiments are fun - pick a theory or hypothesis and put it to the test.

Go look at your salt shaker, now shake out some salt - they don't stick together. Neither does sugar. In space it's a different story due to microgravity. Theory proven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0kteyMDnwE

So where did the rocks come from?

[hayseed]

Well.....

Sooooooo.... Do we go to the light or what??

I'm really on the fence with this. Always have been. I have always struggled with death. Not an easy subject with me.

Was with my Father until the end. Obviously grieving, but also a ton of curiosity....

You were just here. Where did you go??
I have your shell, the man that made me, but did you go to heaven?
Or where??

Sure we were brought up with the bible, church and live life by the commandments, but still on the fence.
This has to be the biggest question in life.

I have laid in bed honestly thinking about this, do we just have our time here and never get to see the pearly gates??

Or make our mark , party hard, enjoy it while we can, work our buts off, buy lots of toys and take our last breath and let the kids deal with it after that...

Deep subject here for sure...it bothers me..not the thread... The question..

[raab]

Originally Posted by Big Thumper

Evolutionary science does not attempt explain the origin or life, only how it has diversified over the last few billion years.

Ah, but it does in trying to link us all to some amino acids in a primordial ooze. If you think that all the species have been created and have some variant of micro evolution through time then you are not a Darwinist but actually a Creationist.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by raab

So where did the rocks come from?

Depends on what you believe Raab - God theory, Big Bang, etc.

Are you ready for a discussion on quantum physics and mechanics? Cause someone may want to start a new thread for that one.


Try to answer the question I posted above

[raab]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I'm not asking the question to ridicule peoples' belief, I'm asking the question to get people thinking.

If the earth and stars were created say a million years ago - we wouldn't be able to see galaxies that are 100 million light years away for another 99 million years.

If we were created by intelligent design could the other stars and galaxies not have been created before earth? Especially if this creator doesnt work in the confines of time as we understand it?

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Well.....

Sooooooo.... Do we go to the light or what??

I'm really on the fence with this. Always have been. I have always struggled with death. Not an easy subject with me.

Was with my Father until the end. Obviously grieving, but also a ton of curiosity....

You were just here. Where did you go??
I have your shell, the man that made me, but did you go to heaven?
Or where??

Sure we were brought up with the bible, church and live life by the commandments, but still on the fence.
This has to be the biggest question in life.

I have laid in bed honestly thinking about this, do we just have our time here and never get to see the pearly gates??

Or make our mark , party hard, enjoy it while we can, work our buts off, buy lots of toys and take our last breath and let the kids deal with it after that...

Deep subject here for sure...it bothers me..not the thread... The question..

First law of thermodynamics always interests me in that way. What is consciousness, what makes us "be". Is it energy or something else?

Do cows, sheep, deer, moose etc go to heaven? We eat them, obtain energy from them.


Little things that make me go hrmmm.