Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[walking buffalo]

I wonder if the Gov even did a complete Aerial sheep survey in 2010/11.

The ACA only shows a survey for a few WMUs.
WMU 437: 185
WMU 438: 316
WMU 439: 54
WMU 440: 303
WMU 442: 380
WMU 444: 264
WMU 445: --*
WMU 446: 195
Deneor** (WMU 440): 60
North Persimmon** (WMU 440): 20
Ruby – Thistle** (WMU 436): 87

Total Count: 1864

Survey type conducted: Winter Range Trend Survey
Date of survey: 19, 21 January and 1, 6, 7, 8, 16, 24 February 2011
* Not surveyed in 2011.
** Complex not previously surveyed within respective WMU.



5.4.3 Results
A total of 1864 bighorn sheep were counted during the aerial survey of WMU 437 – 446 (Table 10, 11).

The number of sheep observed in WMU 437 was very similar to the count obtained in 2009, approaching the maximum of 200 sheep observed in this unit over the past 10 surveys (Table 12).

The WMU 438 count was well below the maximum seen in 1994, but consistent in composition and abundance with the three previous surveys.

WMU 439, which has seen some significant variation among surveys, possibly due in part to its smaller population and the resulting large effect that missing one or two groups can have on the results, was found to have the largest count of the past 10 surveys.

Survey results from WMUs 440, 442 and 444 suggest relatively stable populations since the late 1980s. WMU 436 and 446 have only recently been added to the survey program, making it difficult to determine a population trend.

Throughout the entire survey area, rams were classified as 129 ¼ curl, 111 ½ curl, 75 ¾ curl, 91 legal and 2 unclassified.



Post season Legal rams are 4.9% of the population.
All reports say the survey was consistent with past counts.
Everything stable.

Where is the Problem?

Where is the survey for the rest of the Province?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Without question when the owners of the resource (Alberta residents) have their opportunity slashed then the non residents must also by at least the same percentage. The scary part here is the deceitful sell job that is being done to get the draw in place. If we are killing to many rams 1150 tags isn't going to change that and the true number that SRD wants is MUCH lower than that. They'll be happy to get to the desired number in a few years after they slip the draw in place. Many of us here may NEVER hunt sheep again in Alberta under a draw.

Seems to me the line is going to be greyed out between resident and non-resident.....if it ever gets to that point it will be a sad day. One could argue residents already do not play on an equal field to non-resident guided hunters, and not the in way it should be.

LC

[Elko]

Anyone else getting the feeling that an end to trophy hunting, or at least oppurtunity to hunt for large trophy's in Alberta is about to end.
Between the mngmt of mule deer, elk, and sheep, the numbers seem to be gone.
I understand it is not an exact science, and weather plays a large factor, but it sure is not what it was even 10 yrs ago.

I get that the outfitting industry is a business and brings in a certain amount of revenue, but it is time the residents should be first. Sask does it for the most part, and look at the mule deer they still produce.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I wonder if the Gov even did a complete Aerial sheep survey in 2010/11.

The ACA only shows a survey for a few WMUs.
WMU 437: 185
WMU 438: 316
WMU 439: 54
WMU 440: 303
WMU 442: 380
WMU 444: 264
WMU 445: --*
WMU 446: 195
Deneor** (WMU 440): 60
North Persimmon** (WMU 440): 20
Ruby – Thistle** (WMU 436): 87

Total Count: 1864

Survey type conducted: Winter Range Trend Survey
Date of survey: 19, 21 January and 1, 6, 7, 8, 16, 24 February 2011
* Not surveyed in 2011.
** Complex not previously surveyed within respective WMU.



5.4.3 Results
A total of 1864 bighorn sheep were counted during the aerial survey of WMU 437 – 446 (Table 10, 11).

The number of sheep observed in WMU 437 was very similar to the count obtained in 2009, approaching the maximum of 200 sheep observed in this unit over the past 10 surveys (Table 12).

The WMU 438 count was well below the maximum seen in 1994, but consistent in composition and abundance with the three previous surveys.

WMU 439, which has seen some significant variation among surveys, possibly due in part to its smaller population and the resulting large effect that missing one or two groups can have on the results, was found to have the largest count of the past 10 surveys.

Survey results from WMUs 440, 442 and 444 suggest relatively stable populations since the late 1980s. WMU 436 and 446 have only recently been added to the survey program, making it difficult to determine a population trend.

Throughout the entire survey area, rams were classified as 129 ¼ curl, 111 ½ curl, 75 ¾ curl, 91 legal and 2 unclassified.



Post season Legal rams are 4.9% of the population.
All reports say the survey was consistent with past counts.
Everything stable.

Where is the Problem?

Where is the survey for the rest of the Province?

Of this study how many sheep did they miss in there count that were in the trees, or simply not on winter ranges. Would it be safe to say about 10% of there total count of 1864 and of that percentage how many would make legal. But to be fair one should do a study of the entire province.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I agree but apparently SRD feels that number is too high or at least they must considering the measures being proposed to reduce ram harvest. I can see outfitters being very concerned about the management strategy being proposed as well. Say the allowable harvest number was dropped to 150 for example...it could mean a significant reduction in allocations for them. I don't see outfitters as the culprit here but they sure are a player with a lot to lose.

Sheep,

I agree with you that this is the 'theory' that should be followed. However, if we look at past examples it always seems to work out that APOS either improves its hunting opportunities and allocations or maintains the status quo while the resident hunters are the ones restricted. I would love to believe that if our resident sheep hunting was restricted then the non-resident allocations would also be restricted but history leaves me dubious.

Case in Point: 410 Sheep and 2011 Antelope

[PLOTT]

I know when cougar quotas were cut hard in southern zones in early 2000's only residents were cut and SRD and APOS refused reduction even though they were driving force behind resident quotas. Hopefully sheep would not be the same as it would affect more Albertans.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Of this study how many sheep did they miss in there count that were in the trees, or simply not on winter ranges. Would it be safe to say about 10% of there total count of 1864 and of that percentage how many would make legal. But to be fair one should do a study of the entire province.

If they knew how many sheep were missed, they would know how many sheep were missed.

The aeriel survey is a minimum count. Anne Hubb's March 2011 presentation to WSFA claimed that aerial surveys likely counted 55% of the population. I have no idea how she came up with that percentage.


Studies of Bighorn Sheep behavior show that ewes/lambs are less likely to use marginal non traditional wintering areas, where rams, in particular Mature rams, are more likely than ewes to use micro wintering areas, thus a greater percentage of unaccounted/observed sheep are likely to be Rams.




We need to get back to the basics. Forget about Resident Vs Outfitters Vs Parks.
What is most important for the Public who cares about this issue is the Data.


For those who are sending letters, I suggest you ask

"Was there a Province Wide Aerial Winter Sheep survey in 2011?"
" Please provide the data from the Sheep survey for 2011. "


I really question if the Province even did the Province Wide Aerial Sheep Survey in 2011. Until they provide it to the public, if it exists, there is little to discuss other than this Government's willingness to treat it's citizens, the true and legal owner's of the Sheep, like peasants.

[steve]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

If they knew how many sheep were missed, they would know how many sheep were missed.

The aeriel survey is a minimum count. Anne Hubb's March 2011 presentation to WSFA claimed that aerial surveys likely counted 55% of the population. I have no idea how she came up with that percentage.


Studies of Bighorn Sheep behavior show that ewes/lambs are less likely to use marginal non traditional wintering areas, where rams, in particular Mature rams, are more likely than ewes to use micro wintering areas, thus a greater percentage of unaccounted/observed sheep are likely to be Rams.




We need to get back to the basics. Forget about Resident Vs Outfitters Vs Parks.
What is most important for the Public who cares about this issue is the Data.


For those who are sending letters, I suggest you ask

"Was there a Province Wide Aerial Winter Sheep survey in 2011?"
" Please provide the data from the Sheep survey for 2011. "


I really question if the Province even did the Province Wide Aerial Sheep Survey in 2011. Until they provide it to the public, if it exists, there is little to discuss other than this Government's willingness to treat it's citizens, the true and legal owner's of the Sheep, like peasants.

The data will be provided in the next couple weeks, it is being formatted into graphs and charts right now.

[silver lab]

If your in the know Steve is there anything else you want to tell us?

[steve]

Originally Posted by silver lab

If your in the know Steve is there anything else you want to tell us?

I would never consider myself in the know

Might have answer for you though.

I think we can be pretty well assured that the numbers will reflect less than 5% legal rams across the board. SRD has already said that so I can't see their numbers not reflecting that. I doubt there will be many surprises. I'm interested though how populations have dropped without hunter harvest increasing and if SRD is looking for other solutions than reducing hunter opportunity. You'd think that's where the science would lead them. It's my understanding that Wild Sheep Alberta has offered up some money for them to look at other causes/cures. Haven't heard if SRD is interested in their offer or not.

[ram crazy]

They will make the numbers work to what ever they want, when has the government ever told the complete truth about anything!!!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by steve

The data will be provided in the next couple weeks, it is being formatted into graphs and charts right now.

Considering the presentations to WSF and AGMAG have already been made, One would think that the data has already been compiled.

I guess the Public is going to get a "Special" Edition.




This is how Public notice and input is being done in BC when changes to Hunting, Fishing and Trapping regulations are being considered. Log in and have a look. SH, you might want to put this in a future article.

Welcome to BC Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations’ Angling, Hunting and Trapping Engagement Website

http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/


Remember Alberta's new Moto, "Remember to Breathe"

[steve]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Considering the presentations to WSF and AGMAG have already been made, One would think that the data has already been compiled.

I guess the Public is going to get a "Special" Edition.

Hopefully not

[Speckle55]

Those number's do not include MSL leases in 438 2011 = 1067 sheep and their aerial only found lower numbers in huntable area or so so ,the numbers are being fudged in 438 numbers lower than for years 1983 numbers were higher too

also Grande Cache Coal mine site has some more

[Rocky7]

I haven't read through all the posts, but read a lot of them looking for a clue as to why the general sheep season was closed in 429 this year. It was a surprise. Anybody know?

[Smoke]

Rocky, there is one Cadomin ram still alive on Ram Mountain, three units were closed to hopefully let that ram do some breeding. The intent is to keep it closed for three more years. Predators continue to look after any thoughts of regrowing the population so it likely will never get opened back up, just my opinion though. Hope I am wrong

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Rocky, there is one Cadomin ram still alive on Ram Mountain, three units were closed to hopefully let that ram do some breeding. The intent is to keep it closed for three more years. Predators continue to look after any thoughts of regrowing the population so it likely will never get opened back up, just my opinion though. Hope I am wrong

You are correct. When you look at how far the numbers of tags have dropped in Montana since the start of the draw in the 70's it is obvious that controlling hunters doesn't work.

[Rocky7]

I hope you guys are right. I really hope so.

(You do know 429 is nowhere near Cadomin, right?)

[Smoke]

jRocky, you do know that Cadomin rams were moved to Ram mountain which is in 429 right.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

I haven't read through all the posts, but read a lot of them looking for a clue as to why the general sheep season was closed in 429 this year. It was a surprise. Anybody know?

Officially, the closure is due to a lack of legal rams, in part due to hunting.

Unofficially, Coltman is continueing his research to "Prove" that hunting Rams is causing them to grow smaller horns. His research at Redcap is part of this project. The "Non Hunted" population component of this research is now at hand.

IMO, Redcap was closed to hunting as part of Coltman's research project designed for one conclusion, to "prove" Trophy Hunting damages the genetic make-up of a population.

[Rocky7]

Well, that's just peachy.

Sheep have been hunted for years and years and we have a lot of sheep and a lot of good rams. I've seen more than a few and others who know a lot more about sheep hunting than I do tell me so. I had intended to get serious about it last year in 429 only to find I was sol. That surprised a couple of other guys I know, too.

I suppose we'll see some elk and deer closures next on the same brainiac theory?

The anti-hunting and anti-gun crowd wears a lot of different costumes, I think.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Officially, the closure is due to a lack of legal rams, in part due to hunting.

Unofficially, Coltman is continueing his research to "Prove" that hunting Rams is causing them to grow smaller horns. His research at Redcap is part of this project. The "Non Hunted" population component of this research is now at hand.

IMO, Redcap was closed to hunting as part of Coltman's research project designed for one conclusion, to "prove" Trophy Hunting damages the genetic make-up of a population.

No surprise as SRD will use whatever research or numbers no matter how flawed just to push there agenda.The grizzly bear study is just one example of many.

[steve]

Thinking into the future a year or two here...

When changes do come and they restrict resident opportunity. What is going to be done with outfitters? Their laughing if SRD slows down resident opp and outfitters continue business as usual. Maybe that's what will happen, seems that way way with antelope?

I don't want to see a outfit go under. But it sure would be nice to see equal opportunity loss across the board... Just read that if a Yukon outfit can keep their track record of only harvesting rams over 8 years old they receive unlimited allocations. Some outfits will even fine a guide for bringing a ram under 8 back to camp.

It's been said before thy you can't age bighorns like you can thinhorns. But when your a outfitter or experienced guide, handling rams every year. Out of the same area and same gentics. A guy can get a good feel on what that ram is through the spotting scope. What about a penalty or another way to encourage outfitters to take more mature rams?

Changes are coming, and when they do. I want equality across the board. If there isn't, then what did SRD accomplish? Outfits shoot more and bigger rams. While residents wait longer between rams and are possibly restricted to X amount of rams in a lifetime.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by steve

Thinking into the future a year or two here...

When changes do come and they restrict resident opportunity. What is going to be done with outfitters? Their laughing if SRD slows down resident opp and outfitters continue business as usual. Maybe that's what will happen, seems that way way with antelope?

I don't want to see a outfit go under. But it sure would be nice to see equal opportunity loss across the board... Just read that if a Yukon outfit can keep their track record of only harvesting rams over 8 years old they receive unlimited allocations. Some outfits will even fine a guide for bringing a ram under 8 back to camp.

It's been said before thy you can't age bighorns like you can thinhorns. But when your a outfitter or experienced guide, handling rams every year. Out of the same area and same gentics. A guy can get a good feel on what that ram is through the spotting scope. What about a penalty or another way to encourage outfitters to take more mature rams?

Changes are coming, and when they do. I want equality across the board. If there isn't, then what did SRD accomplish? Outfits shoot more and bigger rams. While residents wait longer between rams and are possibly restricted to X amount of rams in a lifetime.

No you can't age bighorns and no I don't agree with a penalty system based on ram age.
In the US no outfitter owns tags or allocations. The state does and everyone draws, then hires an outfitter. In a way it is a better system as the outfitter doesn't have the up front cost of buying the allocation which are averaging 100k each right now.

[bdub]

I have been following this post with great interest and hope that a few of you can help fill me in. 1) Does the province consult with any sportsman groups in the province prior to making any changes. Do Alberta hunters have a single group to voice there concerns or is it several different groups with different interests? 2) If the goal of the SRD is to increase percentage of older rams what are the pros and cons of increasing the size of a legal ram to something greater than 4/5 curl. 3) How many members would prefer a increase in legel horn size as compared to putting rams on draw. 4) How can I get involved. I don't have a endless supply of cash to join 20 different groups but feel the need to get involved. I hope this post keeps going as sheep hunting is near and dear to me.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

I have been following this post with great interest and hope that a few of you can help fill me in. 1) Does the province consult with any sportsman groups in the province prior to making any changes. Do Alberta hunters have a single group to voice there concerns or is it several different groups with different interests? 2) If the goal of the SRD is to increase percentage of older rams what are the pros and cons of increasing the size of a legal ram to something greater than 4/5 curl. 3) How many members would prefer a increase in legel horn size as compared to putting rams on draw. 4) How can I get involved. I don't have a endless supply of cash to join 20 different groups but feel the need to get involved. I hope this post keeps going as sheep hunting is near and dear to me.

Short answers to your questions.

1) Yes. Look back in the thread for the list of AGMAG (Alberta Game Management Advisory Group)

2)Full Curl Bighorn.
Some herds will produce very few full curl rams. Some rams will only be full curl for a year or two before significant brooming reduces the curl below the nose. Some rams will never be full curl.

3) IMO, IF there is a proven lack of Legal 4/5 curl Rams in particular WMUs, I would rather see a General season Full curl requirement before a draw, in those WMUs.

The harvest would be reduced due to the small number of rams that would be legal. When the Ram % recovers, the legal requirement can be reduced back to 4/5.


FYI, BC just made a similar regulation change this year for some sheep herds.

They got rid of allowing Bighorn Rams to be hunted on age, due to inherant problems with such a system. The new regs allow General Full curl and a draw for Any Ram. The Any Ram draw will allow those old broomed rams to be harvested in a tightly controlled manner.

4) Join a F&G Club, go to the meetings.
Go to the Public meetings with SRD, if you can find one.



MORE IMPORTANTLY,

Write to SRD F&W asking for the Public release of the Data.

I get the feeling that the letters and phone calls are having a positive effect. Info is starting to dribble out of SRD. However, I am very concerned about what I am hearing.

There are scientists involved that are forgetting to maintain a unbiased position regarding the data, and known sheep biology/ecology.

There seems to be a focus with SRD to blame hunting for the Sheep issue, when there is no evidence for this blame.

Scapegoat Wildlife management.

[pottymouth]

Until we are provided with more info, it's impossible to for see which direction Srd is going to go and why. trying to come up with solution is even harder.

I for one would like to know when the majority of the rams are killed in this province. I would suspect the first couple of days and the last. I would like to know how many get taken in the first week?

Perhaps an archery season before the regular season would help save a few legal rams, and maybe enough to make that % go up. Or changing anything that is height of the land off a highway to bow only access.

Flame away, but we all know, that would help sheep herds huge in this province!

[bdub]

W Buff do you know what the did with the outfitter allocations in B.C. Were they restricted to full curl or any ram?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by bdub

W Buff do you know what the did with the outfitter allocations in B.C. Were they restricted to full curl or any ram?

Same requirements as the Residents, which varies by management area.