Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

He has the same rights as you and I, and every Canadian citizens.

"In Canada, people are presumed innocent until found guilty based on the evidence. People detained or arrested who know about and understand the right to remain silent can speak to the police if they want to. In this case, whatever they say can be used against them in court."

Was the officer detained or arrested? If he wasn't would your quote still apply? You would think in the interest in transparency, his notes and statement would be vital, otherwise all we have is hearsay.....

[Sooner]

Somethings don't add up here. Hopefully the lawsuit gets in front of a judge where all evidence can be made public & questions asked of the police involved, otherwise we will never know. I suspect the suit will be thrown out or the TPS will settle the suit long before it ever gets to a courtroom & a judge. Hence, adding to the suspicion & lack of trust we see in our police forces.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by W921

My father was chief of police and in law enforcement for 20 years. I had two uncles who where RCMP. Years ago police where the good guys. Things have changed, training has changed.
Your statement about innocent until proven guilty is so out of date.
I'm happy that you still believe the police are good and honestly hope you never live through the truth.

You just basically called three of my relatives corrupt and dishonest by painting every officer in The country dishonest .
Must be nice to be able to pass judgment from behind the security behind your computer monitor .
Remember it works both ways and you nay be in need f their services old day.
Some of the comments in this thread disgust me .
Cat

[W921]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Really!...where did he serve? Name? I may know him. May know your uncles also.

If your father was Chief, I'm sure he got involved in those types of reviews...and I am sure he did them all being "neutral". Contrary to the consensus here, all reviews are biased.

As to your other comment about the Charter being "out of date", please do a little research and I'll be glad discussing that one further with you...

Bernard Webber of Bridgewater NS Donald George Rafuse,Dartmouth ,NS, and Roger Moore of Spiritwood SK. I will pm you my phone number and we can discuss if you like?
I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by attracting your ( police) attention. And by lose I mean getting hassled for speaking out.
I wouldn't do this if I didn't believe it to be right thing to do and part of me wants to believe someone, somewhere in a position of power can make things right

[W921]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

You just basically called three of my relatives corrupt and dishonest by painting every officer in The country dishonest .
Must be nice to be able to pass judgment from behind the security behind your computer monitor .
Remember it works both ways and you nay be in need f their services old day.
Some of the comments in this thread disgust me .
Cat

God police used to hate crooked police because they did more harm than anyone to not only public but to decent good police officers

[sns2]

1) Who was the witness?

2) How come the cop wouldn’t talk?

3) Why no body cams?

Cops investigating cops. Beauty.

I no more believe this report as gospel than I believed the words of Johnny Cochran when he said “If the glove doesn’t fit then you must acquit.

If it was suicide by cop, I guess Kotanko’s mental health will come into question during the civil suit, and the uniform fanboys / bootlickers will be proven right or wrong.

I appreciate the efforts of all police carrying out their jobs with respect for those they are called to protect and serve. Unfortunately, too many cops don’t meet that criteria.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

You just basically called three of my relatives corrupt and dishonest by painting every officer in The country dishonest .
Must be nice to be able to pass judgment from behind the security behind your computer monitor .
Remember it works both ways and you nay be in need f their services old day.
Some of the comments in this thread disgust me .
Cat

Most are good but you can't believe they all are........can you, I don't? And you're right who else you gonna' call ghostbusters

[Ken07AOVette]

So how many of you think the TPS went there to intentionally murder this man?

You seem to say it without saying it.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

So how many of you think the TPS went there to intentionally murder this man?

You seem to say it without saying it.

Ken, the majority of people on this thread believe that there was excessive force used in the death of a man who by all accounts was a good member of the community. That is clear from the start of this thread to this point. Seems most of us believe that there are many holes in the report and that it doesn’t add up.

Let me ask you a direct question…

Is it okay to question aiuthority in a democractic society or are cops above scrutiny?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Most are good but you can't believe they all are........can you, I don't? And you're right who else you gonna' call ghostbusters

It's about the same as stating all game wardens are *****s, and all hunters are poachers and all indigenous hunters shoot everything they see and trespass.
Cat

[sns2]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It's about the same as stating all game wardens are *****s, and all hunters are poachers and all indigenous hunters shoot everything they see and trespass.
Cat

Cat, to be fair he did say most are good. Which I think everyone on this thread would agree with.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

It's about the same as stating all game wardens are *****s, and all hunters are poachers and all indigenous hunters shoot everything they see and trespass.
Cat

I said most are good and I believe a high percentage of them are as in any sector of the of society you referenced.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

So how many of you think the TPS went there to intentionally murder this man?

You seem to say it without saying it.

I don't think that but that doesn't mean I totally accept the version of events of the investigation, especially when the trigger puller remains silent. Due to the fact that they're allowed to carry and use guns they should be held to a higher standard. I suspect an average LEOs work is administrative, patrolling, issuing tickets, responding to all kinds of calls and them utilizing or drawing their firearms is very low. Of course, I'm speculating and just going by what I've been told over the years by the LEOs I've known.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

So how many of you think the TPS went there to intentionally murder this man?

You seem to say it without saying it.

I actually don't believe the intent was to murder anyone, but I wouldn't be surprised if a gunsmith had a firearm in his hands, or near him, they surprised him, and an officer got excited, and opened fire prematurely. And it would not be unreasonable to believe that the officers would adjust the situation slightly to keep one of their own from getting in trouble, and their squad from looking bad. If the "witness" was a plant, of course he would go along with the story. Or if the witness didn't have his permits and such in order, he might be convinced to support the police version to avoid prosecution. Or he may just have been intimidated, to not tell a slightly different version. To me, it all comes down to the credibility of the witness.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by sns2

Ken, the majority of people on this thread believe that there was excessive force used in the death of a man who by all accounts was a good member of the community. That is clear from the start of this thread to this point. Seems most of us believe that there are many holes in the report and that it doesn’t add up.

Let me ask you a direct question…

Is it okay to question aiuthority in a democractic society or are cops above scrutiny?

I absolutely question authority, Police and courts have to be held to a higher degree than civilians. If they demand we do as they say they must do the same.

I understand that and to some point agree, but the fact is the majority of the most outspoken members here feel RCMP are acting in immoral illegal activities beyond their chartered powers, and they say it every chance they get.

Saying every Police officer is dirty happens, and happens here all the time.

I say that we HAVE to have some faith in the system here to protect the innocent.

Did they go beyond legal and moral in this circumstance?

Everything said at the time of the event was speculative.

If there was a video made public some would say it was doctored lol.

I do not have 100% faith in the system (any system truth be known) but I have hope and will continue until I am proven wrong.

Judging all by the actions of a few is generally frowned on most places.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by W921

Bernard Webber of Bridgewater NS Donald George Rafuse,Dartmouth ,NS, and Roger Moore of Spiritwood SK. I will pm you my phone number and we can discuss if you like?
I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by attracting your ( police) attention. And by lose I mean getting hassled for speaking out.
I wouldn't do this if I didn't believe it to be right thing to do and part of me wants to believe someone, somewhere in a position of power can make things right

Since they are from other provinces...I don't know them.

All good...

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I absolutely question authority, Police and courts have to be held to a higher degree than civilians. If they demand we do as they say they must do the same.

I understand that and to some point agree, but the fact is the majority of the most outspoken members here feel RCMP are acting in immoral illegal activities beyond their chartered powers, and they say it every chance they get.

Saying every Police officer is dirty happens, and happens here all the time.

I say that we HAVE to have some faith in the system here to protect the innocent.

Did they go beyond legal and moral in this circumstance?

Everything said at the time of the event was speculative.

If there was a video made public some would say it was doctored lol.

I do not have 100% faith in the system (any system truth be known) but I have hope and will continue until I am proven wrong.

Judging all by the actions of a few is generally frowned on most places.

LEOs have a tough job to do and understand its getting harder with the decay of society. One thing they cannot lose is the public's trust even if its the actions of one of their own. They can't sacrifice that trust to protect their own who may be complicit in their actions. Sadly this has happened in the past....

Hope is all we have when it comes to the systems be it politics, media, police or other institutions and we should be allowed to ask questions and never take them at face value.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by sns2

1) Who was the witness?

2) How come the cop wouldn’t talk?

3) Why no body cams?

Cops investigating cops. Beauty.

I no more believe this report as gospel than I believed the words of Johnny Cochran when he said “If the glove doesn’t fit then you must acquit.

If it was suicide by cop, I guess Kotanko’s mental health will come into question during the civil suit, and the uniform fanboys / bootlickers will be proven right or wrong.

I appreciate the efforts of all police carrying out their jobs with respect for those they are called to protect and serve. Unfortunately, too many cops don’t meet that criteria.

I'll try and answer your questions:

1) https://siu.on.ca/en/directors_repor...?drid=1856#s_2

2) The officer does not have to supply a statement. Kinda like you...you don't have to either.

3) Although TPS "frontline" officers are required to wear body cams, there are not enough at this time for all. I believe they have a 5 year contract to fully equip "frontline" officers.

Your statement, which I bolded, was not necessary...

And from now on, I have said what I had to say about the actual "shooting" and the results of the investigation. I will not speculate on the rest of the issues.

You guys are doing a pretty good job tearing each others apart already...

[Mulehahn]

So much doesn't make sense to me. But let's start with the basics. He informed customer repair would take 15 mimutre. It's winter in Ontario and he decided to leave the the door open to his shop for those 15 minutes? Maybe the shop was in the basement but then how did the police
properly identify themselves when entering the house and yet both Kotanko and the customer were unaware the police were present?

Also, the official statement says that when walking into the shop the police with in seconds (which implies less than 10) properly identified themselves, gave several commands, observed that the customer was compliant, shifted focus to Kotanko, then watched him reach for, obtain and raise a firearm he knew to be not functioning and draw on them? That duration doesn't make sense to me.

Most plausible to me, customer is with Kotanko who was actively working on gun when police enter and the movement of raising his hands appeared to the officer to be drawing on them. Totally plausible and in all honesty a justifiable shooting as the officer would just see a firearm being raised and not know condition. Could of even truly thought he grabbed it off of bench if he was working on it above the bench. Make it a tragic accident.

But the door being open in the middle of winter still sticks with me?

[Ken07AOVette]

Boy, I hope I am not being called a bootlicker fanboy. I am neither.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

So much doesn't make sense to me. But let's start with the basics. He informed customer repair would take 15 mimutre. It's winter in Ontario and he decided to leave the the door open to his shop for those 15 minutes? Maybe the shop was in the basement but then how did the police
properly identify themselves when entering the house and yet both Kotanko and the customer were unaware the police were present?

Also, the official statement says that when walking into the shop the police with in seconds (which implies less than 10) properly identified themselves, gave several commands, observed that the customer was compliant, shifted focus to Kotanko, then watched him reach for, obtain and raise a firearm he knew to be not functioning and draw on them? That duration doesn't make sense to me.

Most plausible to me, customer is with Kotanko who was actively working on gun when police enter and the movement of raising his hands appeared to the officer to be drawing on them. Totally plausible and in all honesty a justifiable shooting as the officer would just see a firearm being raised and not know condition. Could of even truly thought he grabbed it off of bench if he was working on it above the bench. Make it a tragic accident.

But the door being open in the middle of winter still sticks with me?

Your explanation of what could have happened ,is pretty much what I was thinking, but when the police looked at the firearm, and realized that it wasn't complete, let alone loaded, they would realize that their mistake resulted in an innocent person being killed. Rather than admit that they killed an innocent man, and possibly be successfully sued for millions, adding in the part about him pointing the gun even after being warned multiple times, would change the entire complexion of the situation, and greatly reduce the odds of them being blamed or sued.
The really sad part, is that they could have just had the local police take the man into custody, without anyone being killed.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Your explanation of what could have happened ,is pretty much what I was thinking, but when the police looked at the firearm, and realized that it wasn't complete, let alone loaded, they would realize that their mistake resulted in an innocent person being killed. Rather than admit that they killed an innocent man, and possibly be successfully sued for millions, adding in the part about him pointing the gun even after being warned multiple times, would change the entire complexion of the situation, and greatly reduce the odds of them being blamed or sued.
The really sad part, is that they could have just had the local police take the man into custody, without anyone being killed.

Pretty sure if it happened the way police are saying, the shooter would of gave his statement of events right away. Why wouldn’t he? He has witnesses to back him up.
When people don’t give statements it’s because they don’t want to incriminate themselves. Leaves more time to get all your ducks in a row.
Now, it could of went that way, or he could be telling the truth. We will never know.

[Twisted Canuck]

The bottom line is that there isn't any transparency, full stop. And that is what breeds lack of trust. No different then JT prorouging parliament to avoid any scrutiny of the WE scandal. The only version is the official version, which *may actually be the truth*, but it also might not be. In this case there are a lot of curious things that happened, and no answers have been or will be provided.

So, those who have a bias to trusting authority and believing them, will do so, and those who don't, will probably not.

And surprising to some, there are others who won't hold a strong opinion on it, because there isn't enough information provided to go on. Hence, the problem. We just want information about what happened, so there is accountability to the citizens. That is where trust lies, and I'd like to be able to trust. When the information is not provided, I always wonder why.

[wally338]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

The bottom line is that there isn't any transparency, full stop. And that is what breeds lack of trust. No different then JT prorouging parliament to avoid any scrutiny of the WE scandal. The only version is the official version, which *may actually be the truth*, but it also might not be. In this case there are a lot of curious things that happened, and no answers have been or will be provided.

So, those who have a bias to trusting authority and believing them, will do so, and those who don't, will probably not.

And surprising to some, there are others who won't hold a strong opinion on it, because there isn't enough information provided to go on. Hence, the problem. We just want information about what happened, so there is accountability to the citizens. That is where trust lies, and I'd like to be able to trust. When the information is not provided, I always wonder why.

we need a like button

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

I absolutely question authority, Police and courts have to be held to a higher degree than civilians. If they demand we do as they say they must do the same.

I understand that and to some point agree, but the fact is the majority of the most outspoken members here feel RCMP are acting in immoral illegal activities beyond their chartered powers, and they say it every chance they get.

Saying every Police officer is dirty happens, and happens here all the time.

I say that we HAVE to have some faith in the system here to protect the innocent.

Did they go beyond legal and moral in this circumstance?

Everything said at the time of the event was speculative.

If there was a video made public some would say it was doctored lol.

I do not have 100% faith in the system (any system truth be known) but I have hope and will continue until I am proven wrong.

Judging all by the actions of a few is generally frowned on most places.

Ken, I would love for you to find a post from a regular contributor who has clearly said he believes every police officer is dirty.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

I don't think that but that doesn't mean I totally accept the version of events of the investigation, especially when the trigger puller remains silent. Due to the fact that they're allowed to carry and use guns they should be held to a higher standard. I suspect an average LEOs work is administrative, patrolling, issuing tickets, responding to all kinds of calls and them utilizing or drawing their firearms is very low. Of course, I'm speculating and just going by what I've been told over the years by the LEOs I've known.

The so called trigger puller does not need to repeat the events to you, me or any of us that was hashed out enough during the investigation.

Why do people who have no smick what is going on other than what they pull off the internet ask or demand answers to something they know little to nothing about?

This may play out maybe in court again but more than likely not so around and around we go speculating.

Can you folks not see that people on this forum are a LEO or have friends or loved ones in this occupation? They too enjoy the outdoors and perhaps sharing information around these activities but get pounded into the ground here every other week. If we ganged up on other occupations there would be time outs real quick but somehow this is acceptable.

Maybe we should pick on another occupation, nah two wrongs don’t make a right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

The so called trigger puller does not need to repeat the events to you, me or any of us that was hashed out enough during the investigation.

Why do people who have no smick what is going on other than what they pull off the internet ask or demand answers to something they know little to nothing about?

This may play out maybe in court again but more than likely not so around and around we go speculating.

Can you folks not see that people on this forum are a LEO or have friends or loved ones in this occupation? They too enjoy the outdoors and perhaps sharing information around these activities but get pounded into the ground here every other week. If we ganged up on other occupations there would be time outs real quick but somehow this is acceptable.

Maybe we should pick on another occupation, nah two wrongs don’t make a right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Other occupations don't carry firearms and sometimes kill people with them. To say that nobody deserves answers is nonsense. The police are accountable to the public that pays them, plain and simple. They are not a law unto themselves. To expect transparency from them and all public officials is normal. Unfortunately, the lack of transparency is also normal. Sorry if this hurts your feelings and you feel persecuted, but your contention that nobody has any need to know, is wrong. And if everything is above board, there should be no issue being transparent.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

The bottom line is that there isn't any transparency, full stop. And that is what breeds lack of trust. No different then JT prorouging parliament to avoid any scrutiny of the WE scandal. The only version is the official version, which *may actually be the truth*, but it also might not be. In this case there are a lot of curious things that happened, and no answers have been or will be provided.

So, those who have a bias to trusting authority and believing them, will do so, and those who don't, will probably not.

And surprising to some, there are others who won't hold a strong opinion on it, because there isn't enough information provided to go on. Hence, the problem. We just want information about what happened, so there is accountability to the citizens. That is where trust lies, and I'd like to be able to trust. When the information is not provided, I always wonder why.

Transparency and Accountability are lacking in so many dealings with authority. It also has a cumulative affect, which in turn makes it harder to extend the benefit of the doubt in cases like these. It just does.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Other occupations don't carry firearms and sometimes kill people with them. To say that nobody deserves answers is nonsense. The police are accountable to the public that pays them, plain and simple. They are not a law unto themselves. To expect transparency from them and all public officials is normal. Unfortunately, the lack of transparency is also normal. Sorry if this hurts your feelings and you feel persecuted, but your contention that nobody has any need to know, is wrong. And if everything is above board, there should be no issue being transparent.

Sorry there twisted the investigation report is out. A few posts up further for all to view.
Some don’t like it so attempt to feed off speculations.
No feelings hurt at all just don’t enjoy too much when a feeding frenzy starts be it against any occupation that like all occupations have bad apples.
The majority of people out there are good people and that’s something to be thankful for!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Sorry there twisted the investigation report is out. A few posts up further for all to view.
Some don’t like it so attempt to feed off speculations.
No feelings hurt at all just don’t enjoy too much when a feeding frenzy starts be it against any occupation that like all occupations have bad apples.
The majority of people out there are good people and that’s something to be thankful for!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah yes, the report. Nothing to see here, move along. That may be adequate for you, the Holy Writ as it were, but as it fails to actually answer a lot of questions, and actually offers no proof of anything, I'm going to just stick with maybe it's true, and maybe it's not.