To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Not the same species,in the same locations.As it stands,there are archery seasons in many wmus where there are no general seasons for the same species.If those archery seasons are put on a draw,you will no longer be able to hunt those species in those wmus every year,like you can now.

Absolutely and if you'd said that the first time around, I'd have agreed with you. You didn't. F&W has said since day one that some species would likely go on draw if crossbows are classified as archery gear......no news there.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I don't agree with most of the info is coming from vertical archers. I think that a misconception has been strung along through the age of time. I have 6 people working for me right now, none hunt , 3 said they shoot as far as a gun, 1 said a football field, and the other 2 said from here to safeway. (which is about 140 yards) that a general public perception.

LOL, I'll avoid the obvious answer there Potty.

You are correct that there is some misinformation out there and that education should play an important role in any type of hunting.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by conservationist

(My "reject" letter for a crossbow permit states that "a limb must be missing or permanently paralyzed" and "age related conditions (arthritis) do not qualify". Would have been nice to know that before I wasted a hundred bucks getting medical certification)

The regs may have changed since I went through the loops and hoops (and fight) to get my crossbow permit about 10 years ago. At the time there was a form letter at the wildlife office that needed to be filled out and you needed a letter from a doctor specifically stating that you had a permanent disability preventing you from using conventional archery equipment. From what I know about arthritis, there are varying degrees of it and it can in fact be disabling. It can also effect any age group so I would leave my age out of it entirely so you don't open the "age related factor" for them.

I wouldn't give up on trying just yet. In the rejection letter that you received there should have been a form to appeal the decision. I will try to find a copy of my doctor's letter and get it to you. It has to be specifically worded or it will be rejected. My application was rejected several times and it took me about a year to finally receive it. Each time that it was rejected it only strengthened my resolve to keep fighting.

There's other things that you could do depending on how far you want to take the fight. A call from your MP might rattle some chains for example. Based on my experience applying, they won't just give you the permit and you will definitely have to fight for it.

Hopefully for people like you this crossbow survey leads to legalizing them during bow season.

Here's what I found on http://www.huntingfortomorrow.com/HF...Sheet%2012.pdf

Cross-bow License ELIGIBILITY: The eligibility criteria are the same as the Off-Highway Vehicle Permit except that the permanent condition, affliction or handicap involves an upper limb paralyses or amputation that prevents the individual from utilizing conventional archery hunting equipment.
Applications based on age related factors, poor physical conditioning or stature may not be approved.
Similarly, conditions, afflictions, or handicaps that are correctable or not permanent in nature are not intended for approval.

[madatter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Not the same species,in the same locations.As it stands,there are archery seasons in many wmus where there are no general seasons for the same species.If those archery seasons are put on a draw,you will no longer be able to hunt those species in those wmus every year,like you can now.

Is that ultimately not why you are opposed to the xbow?
Be honest now.....

And It really does not matter to me.....I do not shoot a bow anymore and slim chance I will ever own an xbow,I barely seem to have enough time getting out hunting at all.
I will get a tag or two every year for something tho even if everything went to a draw guaranteed.I am not greedy and no trophy hunter so a bit of meat in the freezer is all I want.
I also didn't realize it was a god given right of bow hunters to have a general season everywhere cause that's the way it's been....things change

[HunterDave]

Hey ehntr! Aren't you supposed to be working?

I found your post on the other thread re your capabilities with your crossbow and I thought that I'd bring it over here:

That is nasty misinformation. Actually putting a "tops of 50" on the maximum effective range of a crossbow. I've put a picatinny rail underneath my 225# Exomax, mounted a bipod on it and shot a 4 inch group at 100 yards. Lots of energy left too...

Until I researched it I didn't think that my little 150# crossbow would be able to kill a deer out to that range but technically it could, and even farther actually. I was just wondering how long it took your bolt to hit the target at 100 yds.

I know that you are an avid (is that the right word? ) and experienced compound bow hunter so, in your opinion, would you call a 100 yd shot with your crossbow on a deer effective? Would you feel confident with your shot on a deer at 100 yds and would you take it? Or, would it take too long for the bolt to reach the deer and too much could go wrong?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Not the same species,in the same locations.As it stands,there are archery seasons in many wmus where there are no general seasons for the same species.If those archery seasons are put on a draw,you will no longer be able to hunt those species in those wmus every year,like you can now.

hey, wmu 318, went on draw for moose in 03 season....no crossbows there to push it over the limits.....we are at the brink of pushing things those certain things to draw with todays kick butt compounds and kick butt bowhunting thing that is popular all over the past decade or so....bowhunting is huge now, because its much more effective with todays tools and hunting techniques....the compound and crossbow are the same thing when it comes to killing percentages

so....do we hold it out for just a few more years in hopes a couple of those brink species/trophies that compounds are about to push over to draw anyhow can get a few guys their trophies before the change?.....or just get on with it already because the compounds are going to do it anyhow if hunting grows.....and thats the other question....is hunting growing or not, if not then big whoop, if this can help it grow then great

yer freakin out over nothing man, lets do this already!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Too many takers, not enough givers.

lol, and just like you try to flip it, its much easier to flip it the other way (for a good reason too)

end of day if you study the tool itself as it relates to bowhunting then it is every bit a bow, just a bow that is one size/strength fits all....how on earth can this be a bad thing?

because it could possible grow bowhunter numbers? again....how on earth can that be a bad thing?

oh....right.....because if too many bowhunters then a few things might have to go on draw.....well then, to heck with the rest of you.....get a compound/recurve/longbow or bugger off and leave us to our trophies

yeah thats what i thought.....who's being selfish again?

nice try though

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Hey ehntr! Aren't you supposed to be working?

I found your post on the other thread re your capabilities with your crossbow and I thought that I'd bring it over here:

That is nasty misinformation. Actually putting a "tops of 50" on the maximum effective range of a crossbow. I've put a picatinny rail underneath my 225# Exomax, mounted a bipod on it and shot a 4 inch group at 100 yards. Lots of energy left too...

Until I researched it I didn't think that my little 150# crossbow would be able to kill a deer out to that range but technically it could, and even farther actually. I was just wondering how long it took your bolt to hit the target at 100 yds.

I know that you are an avid (is that the right word? ) and experienced compound bow hunter so, in your opinion, would you call a 100 yd shot with your crossbow on a deer effective? Would you feel confident with your shot on a deer at 100 yds and would you take it? Or, would it take too long for the bolt to reach the deer and too much could go wrong?

about equal risk of messing up the shot, might be able to group more consistantly than the other at the range but likely more energy left in top end compounds and with higher bc's etc. i'm betting my xlr8 compound will get there quicker than that crossbow too.....in field conditions though setting a pin at 100 and making one decent shot isn't that hard, groups can tell you if your personally consistant for x amount of shots but both weapons if put on machine are likely equally accurate.....with the human factor both will be equally capable at 100 yrds.....if not then harvest stats would somehow bear this out....they don't, how many times does it need to be proven that in the field and in relation to bowhunting......the crossbow is a bow? i mean seriously ehuntr? harvest stats from all over for how long? does not mean anything to you?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

lol, and just like you try to flip it, its much easier to flip it the other way (for a good reason too)

end of day if you study the tool itself as it relates to bowhunting then it is every bit a bow, just a bow that is one size/strength fits all....how on earth can this be a bad thing?

because it could possible grow bowhunter numbers? again....how on earth can that be a bad thing?

oh....right.....because if too many bowhunters then a few things might have to go on draw.....well then, to heck with the rest of you.....get a compound/recurve/longbow or bugger off and leave us to our trophies

yeah thats what i thought.....who's being selfish again?

nice try though

Says the guy that has some of the best exculsive permission out there, and wouldn't even take his buddy , here, out this year!!! LOL.

p.s Your muley looks awesome, saw it the other nite.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Says the guy that has some of the best exculsive permission out there, and wouldn't even take his buddy , here, out this year!!! LOL.

p.s Your muley looks awesome, saw it the other nite.

ha, that permission ended about half way through the season to development, couldn't take anyone so tough luck

and my best two deer didn't even come from there so i wouldn't say it was some of the best....during the rut but ok but sucked early season when us bowhunters really like to do our thing

[shooter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the result is archery hunts being made into draw seasons,the new opportunity may come at the expense of having the opportunity to hunt less often.You might be able to use a crossbow every two or three years,instead of using a bow every year.

That's the beauty of being in Alberta and having so many different species and opportunities to hunt. Regardless of a draw system or not most guys should never be without some kind of a tag, it just means they will diversify the game they hunt. I have been doing that for the past few years anyway.

Also is a crossbow really going to turn the two major bow zones into draw? 212 and whatever the Edmonton one is, most likely won't change because they want to thin out some numbers in those areas anyway. Not that an xbow is really going to change the kill success rate that much. It's still a sneaking game just with a more cumbersome bow.

[elkhunter11]

Also is a crossbow really going to turn the two major bow zones into draw? 212 and whatever the Edmonton one is, most likely won't change because they want to thin out some numbers in those areas anyway.

I wasn't referring to the Edmonton and Calgary bow zones,I was referring to the wmus in Southern alberta where rifle hunters have to wait a few years to draw tags,but bow hunters can hunt every year with a general tag.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I wasn't referring to the Edmonton and Calgary bow zones,I was referring to the wmus in Southern alberta where rifle hunters have to wait a few years to draw tags,but bow hunters can hunt every year with a general tag.

you selfish pr_ck

[ishootbambi]

here is another question that as been asked and not answered for a year or so. lets forget crossbows for a second. what if some fluke of nature occurred that made vertical bowhunter numbers double for next season. would bow guys still be opposed to new bowhunters joining the ranks? everyone keeps saying that anyone can buy a bow and go....but the result would be the same.....no more over the counter tags and more draws. who still opposes?

edit...didnt mean to quote...just reply

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

about equal risk of messing up the shot, might be able to group more consistantly than the other at the range but likely more energy left in top end compounds and with higher bc's etc. i'm betting my xlr8 compound will get there quicker than that crossbow too.....in field conditions though setting a pin at 100 and making one decent shot isn't that hard, groups can tell you if your personally consistant for x amount of shots but both weapons if put on machine are likely equally accurate.....with the human factor both will be equally capable at 100 yrds.....

Yes, I know that a compound bow would get out to 100 yds flatter, quicker and with more energy but I've never heard of anyone taking a deer at that distance. It is actually the better weapon between the two for long distance shots if it can be aimed properly.

IMO accuracy on a stationary paper target at 100 yds is a little different from having an effective killing distance of 100 yds on a deer. A target is not going to move at the sound of a crossbow. I was wondering if the sound of the crossbow would get that deer moving before the bolt had time to reach it. If so, it wouldn't be effective out to 100 yds in a hunting situation unless you are the type of person that would take low percentage shots.

All of the bowhunters that I have ever met take pride in being very ethical hunters and they would not release an arrow at an animal unless they had an excellent shot that they were confident in making.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by flyguyd

I know at least 10 guys here in the south that shoot a160 -200 inch mule deer buck every year . In a 5 year period thats a lot of trophy deer that arnt included in the draw stats and thats just from a hand full of guys. I guarantee there are alot more than 10 guys buying a general tag and hunting mulies in the draw zones.

seems appropriate to re-quote this here

and all at the expense of having the option a tool to for bowhunting that is one size/strength fits all......ouch, selfish, shame shame

That's a great question Bambi and I've said all along that this loss of opportunity arguement is a lost leader. I suspect most bow hunters would welcome more vertical bow hunters with open arms, even if opportunity was lost so, it really isn't a question of loss of opportunity but a question of whether the crossbow belongs. By using the loss of opportunity arguement, it's hard not to look greedy even though that's likely not the intent. Crossbows either belong as archery gear or they don't, based on mechanics. If they do belong then to stop them because of loss of opportunity is just plain greedy. If they don't belong, then the loss of opportunity arguement doesn't even play in. Sadly, the archery community really shot themselves in the foot with the loss of opportunity arguement and I suspect it's a Pandora's box many wish had never been opened. It's likely to have ramifications regardless if crossbows are included or not.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yes, I know that a compound bow would get out to 100 yds flatter, quicker and with more energy but I've never heard of anyone taking a deer at that distance. It is actually the better weapon between the two for long distance shots if it can be aimed properly.

IMO accuracy on a stationary paper target at 100 yds is a little different from having an effective killing distance of 100 yds on a deer. A target is not going to move at the sound of a crossbow. I was wondering if the sound of the crossbow would get that deer moving before the bolt had time to reach it. If so, it wouldn't be effective out to 100 yds in a hunting situation unless you are the type of person that would take low percentage shots.

All of the bowhunters that I have ever met take pride in being very ethical hunters and they would not release an arrow at an animal unless they had an excellent shot that they were confident in making.

on one thread i pointed out several links to game taken beyond 100 yrds, a muley buck, a couple antelope etc. with compounds and again, Archie Nesbitt has been pinned to 120 yrds for years, seeing guys on the shows lots pinned and practicing beyond 100 yrds to make them better shots...oh yeah, Bob Faulkrod (spelling?) just seen him practing to like 125 with his bow on t.v. not long ago as another example, then another show had guy showing Jim Shockey i think his 100 yrd aptitude on an ant hill, hit it in kill zone twice at 100, Shockey's eye's were about as wide as they get when a hippo runs by him out of the blue

no different than target shooting 3x the distance you intend to hunt with rifles etc. lots of long range shooters on the range won't go past the usual several hundred yards on game too

real world hunting ranges are much different than the actual tools ranges if perfect......so i agree, just wanted to add, its getting more common to see guys pushing technology and gear in both rifles and archery etc. so you'll eventually see longer kills with crossbows too, but the compounds are already doing it

they are both bows as they relate to bowhunting...

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That's a great question Bambi and I've said all along that this loss of opportunity arguement is a lost leader. I suspect most bow hunters would welcome more vertical bow hunters with open arms, even if opportunity was lost so, it really isn't a question of loss of opportunity but a question of whether the crossbow belongs. By using the loss of opportunity arguement, it's hard not to look greedy even though that's likely not the intent. Crossbows either belong as archery gear or they don't, based on mechanics. If they do belong then to stop them because of loss of opportunity is just plain greedy. If they don't belong, then the loss of opportunity arguement doesn't even play in. Sadly, the archery community really shot themselves in the foot with the loss of opportunity arguement and I suspect it's a Pandora's box many wish had never been opened. It's likely to have ramifications regardless if crossbows are included or not.

^^^^ and thats exactly why i voted yes. the hunter stats say they are a bow, the design says its a bow, and the fact that i actually hunted with one for two seasons when i lived in BC have given me the real world insight and experience to say that yes it is bowhunting.....not at all my favorite style of bowhunting, but bowhunting all the same.

honestly, seeing all the wild rumors being presented as fact by those with no experience does strike a little fear in me. no question some ugly things are gonna happen when some people start flinging short arrows at game 100 yards away. in the end though, guys WILL learn that crossbows are nothing more than an awkward bow and life will go on. there will no doubt be a big surge at first, but most will give it up when they realize its just too hard to get within range and get the weapon into position without getting busted.

[Stinky Coyote]

i do believe with the last couple posts by sheep and bambi we can lock this thread up.....nothing more to be said folks, we can move onto exciting threads like 2 oz slings etc.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by shooter

That's the beauty of being in Alberta and having so many different species and opportunities to hunt. Regardless of a draw system or not most guys should never be without some kind of a tag, it just means they will diversify the game they hunt. I have been doing that for the past few years anyway.

I agree 100%. Being ex-military I've moved around allot and I've hunted in numerous different provinces. No where that I've been to even comes close to comparing with the the hunting opportunities that we have here in terms of number of species and bag limits.

Regardless of what may or may not happen draw wise if crossbows become legal for use during archery season, everyone is still ALLOT better off than any other province. We should all be counting our blessings!

Just to expand further on the mechanics arguement......should a single shot 45/70 be permitted in muzzleloader season. They have basically identical ballistics/range/performance/sucess rates. Some in-lines even outperform them.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

i do believe with the last couple posts by sheep and bambi we can lock this thread up.....nothing more to be said folks, we can move onto exciting threads like 2 oz slings etc.

Haha...16 pages in 5 days...I'm sure this one will go round and round and round...

In fact, I'll buy you a beer if it doesnt go another 2 pages...lol

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just to expand further on the mechanics arguement......should a single shot 45/70 be permitted in muzzleloader season. They have basically identical ballistics. Some in-lines even outperform them.

they are in many places.....

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Says the guy that has some of the best exculsive permission out there, and wouldn't even take his buddy , here, out this year!!! LOL.

Hi Kettle!

Don't forget, I have a 212 elk tag.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

they are in many places.....

In a few...yup they are.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just to expand further on the mechanics arguement......should a single shot 45/70 be permitted in muzzleloader season. They have basically identical ballistics/range/performance/sucess rates. Some in-lines even outperform them.

I know nothing about either ! I would say nope 45/70 isn't a muzzle loader.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Haha...16 pages in 5 days...I'm sure this one will go round and round and round...

In fact, I'll buy you a beer if it doesnt go another 2 pages...lol

oh boy, this could an easy beer, just start lippin some guys off, get ole brownbear involved and we could have this sucker locked up purdy quick like

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Hi Kettle!

Don't forget, I have a 212 elk tag.

Man, I got one elk spot and I'm not allowed to bring my dad or mamba...or else i would love to tape another hunt for my collection.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

oh boy, this could an easy beer, just start lippin some guys off, get ole brownbear involved and we could have this sucker locked up purdy quick like

Hahah...true dat!