Sheep on a Draw?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

I think that is the reason the sytem would work as if you do not reward the hunter for making the concious effort to harvest a mature ram then what incentive is there? and who buys into a system without rewards?
I have not been to the AFGA convention but I'd take my chances in preaching to them and bottom line the guys that are shooting the first legal ram they see will have to wait a few years longer to pull the trigger again.

I would really like to be there to see the reaction when people see somebody who just shot a 10 year old 160" ram get a free pass and a fellow with a 8 year old 185" ram have to wait for 2 years. I can also see the arguments AND the court cases requiring lawyers and experts in sheep aging to testify at trial to shave a year or two off the waiting period. As we've seen in one picture here not many people agree on the age of a ram and two of my rams were aged by three different officers who each came up with a different age, which under your system is a substantial difference in punishment and reward.
I applaud your attempts but you are far too close to the subject to look at it objectively. You need a plan that satisfies the thousands of sheep hunters that don't come to AO and are all for anything that gets them a legal sheep faster and easier. I'll guarantee the vast majority would have an apoplectic fit over any plan that saw the guy who shot the biggest trophy get the least amount of punishment. Yes, I'd pay to watch that get presented to the floor of the convention!
If we continue to open this door we will have to live with what walks through it.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by jrs

"If you apply for a draw you can not get a general tag.This way those who want to hunt for trophy rams have there season and those who,like me,just love to get out and hunt the mountains looking for a sheep can also do so."

Problem is draw tags have a high chance of going to guys who would have otherwise not considered sheep hunting. A few of the guys that drew at Cadomin last November definitely fit that bill. There are not very many avid sheep hunters that still wouldn't mind having a late season tag in their pocket one year, would be a bit silly to remove that opportunity for guys that have passed on rams for 10 years straight looking for Mr. Big. I actually met a gentleman this past fall that literally hunted the entire season looking for a big one. We visited for a few hours over the fall and he saw many rams taken by others, but never found one he wanted. In discussion with him i later found out he'd been hunting that hard for 10 years looking for a ram that would go over 190''. He shot a few smaller ones when he was young but was spending his retirement looking for a monster. Why take the opportunity to draw a late season tag away from a guy like that?

The only change i know i'd like to see is make the November seasons a once in a lifetime chance like mountain goat. I think it would mean a few less guys throwing their name in not wanting to draw during years they can't hunt. I'd also say it would mean more guys would get an opportunity over time but really, whats the chance of someone drawing twice anyways ..

You not gunna satisfy everyone but I think if you put stiffer prices and the one in a lifetime, it you will eliminate a few guys. And if them guys wanna put in you cant really descriminate against them either. If they put in and wanna put the time in then they deserve a ram also.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I would really like to be there to see the reaction when people see somebody who just shot a 10 year old 160" ram get a free pass and a fellow with a 8 year old 185" ram have to wait for 2 years. I can also see the arguments AND the court cases requiring lawyers and experts in sheep aging to testify at trial to shave a year or two off the waiting period. As we've seen in one picture here not many people agree on the age of a ram and two of my rams were aged by three different officers who each came up with a different age, which under your system is a substantial difference in punishment and reward.
I applaud your attempts but you are far too close to the subject to look at it objectively. You need a plan that satisfies the thousands of sheep hunters that don't come to AO and are all for anything that gets them a legal sheep faster and easier. I'll guarantee the vast majority would have an apoplectic fit over any plan that saw the guy who shot the biggest trophy get the least amount of punishment. Yes, I'd pay to watch that get presented to the floor of the convention!
If we continue to open this door we will have to live with what walks through it.

Why do you insist on bashing every "SUGESTION" presented on here!!!!
At least these guys are putting out ideas not just flapping there gums on how nothing will work.
And the younger the ram no matter on its size is less mature!!!!!!!
Sure its not a 100% flawless idea but at least its a start. Better than the ones you have put forth!!

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I would really like to be there to see the reaction when people see somebody who just shot a 10 year old 160" ram get a free pass and a fellow with a 8 year old 185" ram have to wait for 2 years. I can also see the arguments AND the court cases requiring lawyers and experts in sheep aging to testify at trial to shave a year or two off the waiting period. As we've seen in one picture here not many people agree on the age of a ram and two of my rams were aged by three different officers who each came up with a different age, which under your system is a substantial difference in punishment and reward.
I applaud your attempts but you are far too close to the subject to look at it objectively. You need a plan that satisfies the thousands of sheep hunters that don't come to AO and are all for anything that gets them a legal sheep faster and easier. I'll guarantee the vast majority would have an apoplectic fit over any plan that saw the guy who shot the biggest trophy get the least amount of punishment. Yes, I'd pay to watch that get presented to the floor of the convention!
If we continue to open this door we will have to live with what walks through it.

You make a valid point on age not directly proportionate to inches. However the ram in question was aged by many on the board and even just from the pictures no one called it less than 10 therefore take your free pass.
If you don't mind me asking what were the ages of your two sheep? If they are also older than 10 it would not be an issue.
No disrespect intended to Fish and Wildlife but it never ceases to amaze me how far off they can sometimes be on the age of sheep. Hence, an educational program in place.
There is never going to be a perfect solution and there will always be exceptions but at the end of the day a system that is in place to work under the majority of circumstances is a successful system in my eyes. I guess I like it better than the alternatives...
How much are we talking? For the presentation at the convention that is
And from what I gather here from the rumours flying around the door is already being opened so before something walks through it lets try find a win-win solution.

[JustinC]

I got some numbers today from apos. There is 65 sheep allocations and out of them they filled 23 of them.That is alot better success rate than all residents of alberta with our what 5 or 10 % (not sure on our stats)So to whoom is the person or persons complaining about who is getting the sheep trying to get the 5 year wait. Thought you all wold like that info as for the 140 dead rams a year minus that from the eqation.

[sheepguide]

Didnt we have a post earlier that stated that the non resident tags were over and on top of the resident numbers?

[209x50]

One was aged at 7.5 to 9.5 they settled on 8.5 the other the spread was 10.5 to 13.5 and they settled on 12.5 for the registration.
Just because of the turn over in government jobs you are never going to get very many qualified people to do the aging and when something like punishment hinges on the outcome I can see this going from a hour trip to the office to you surrendering your trophy for weeks for the aging. Your suggestion is a novel approach but far to onerous and open to bias for the government to ever institute.
Who was it again that did the study and decided that we had a problem? LOL.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

One was aged at 7.5 to 9.5 they settled on 8.5 the other the spread was 10.5 to 13.5 and they settled on 12.5 for the registration.
Just because of the turn over in government jobs you are never going to get very many qualified people to do the aging and when something like punishment hinges on the outcome I can see this going from a hour trip to the office to you surrendering your trophy for weeks for the aging. Your suggestion is a novel approach but far to onerous and open to bias for the government to ever institute.
Who was it again that did the study and decided that we had a problem? LOL.

You are a little slow arent you Rich... No one said there was a problem just looking to improve the decent hunting we have now. Just like 15 other posts in this thread have stated that you have been unable to understand!!

Why not have a couple sheep ageing meets(kinda like the horn scoring meets) after the season that have a couple sheep biologists to age the sheep?

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Didnt we have a post earlier that stated that the non resident tags were over and on top of the resident numbers?

Sorry I missed that one.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

One was aged at 7.5 to 9.5 they settled on 8.5 the other the spread was 10.5 to 13.5 and they settled on 12.5 for the registration.
Just because of the turn over in government jobs you are never going to get very many qualified people to do the aging and when something like punishment hinges on the outcome I can see this going from a hour trip to the office to you surrendering your trophy for weeks for the aging. Your suggestion is a novel approach but far to onerous and open to bias for the government to ever institute.
Who was it again that did the study and decided that we had a problem? LOL.

Haha, wow thats good. It's one thing to get different ages on a ram but splitting the difference... unreal.
I have heard of another way to determine age of a ram is to take a tooth and have it analyzed. Yes this is probably not a cost effective solution but from what I hear it is possible.
It is the CO's that age the ram at registration time correct and not the summer receptionist behind the desk? Granted they are government employees but aging sheep isn't rocket science and if shown the proper way and assuming they can count to ten it hopefully would not be a problem.

I was hoping you could tell me who did the study? LOL
Bottom line someone thinks there is a problem and I don't like there solution so suggesting here is an alternative but your right not everyone is going to believe in it. I will also grant you that it seems more onerous than anything in place at the moment but sometimes more effort is the answer.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by JustinC

Sorry I missed that one.

Oh im not positive there was one just thought I remembered seeing one. Kinda went back but couldnt find it. LOL lots of posts to look through.

[bowhuntercam]

The same guys who are counting the grizzlies, counting the rings on my ram... YIKES

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

The same guys who are counting the grizzlies, counting the rings on my ram... YIKES

Well 209 said the Bio's counted the sheep and the numbers are good so if he says they can count then we should be ok!!!!!

[Swarovski]

This is priceless!

[7MM Mike]

209,
Are there not age based zones in BC for "Mature", as in 8yrs plus Bighorns already ( I thought spences Bridge perhaps)? Could we not stand to learn something from that system? Just suggesting there may be age based systems that function elsewhere......

[podman]

I found this interesting the 2009 AFGA resolutions to present to govt. I agree with most of them, like for trophy sheep in an area that is not priority draw that it be once in a lifetime. Also draws were it is statistically impossible to draw in a lifetime go to lottery.

One I am not sure about is removing all OHV restrictions

here is the link

http://www.afga.org/documents.html?fileID=492

There is another 2009 document that goes through all of the proposed changes including who submitted them.

[JustinC]

So we have come to the coclution that it is not the outfitters that have the problem sho who does? Make them selves known so we can discuss a fix to there problem. The 5 year thing is out.ageing is a maybe but I think that it is a hard one to do.draw no one wants. What else is there? I am like all of you wanting better sheep.what about full curls?

[choclab]

sheepguide you keep bashing 209 for being negative, I think he is being realistic.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by choclab

sheepguide you keep bashing 209 for being negative, I think he is being realistic.

Is any of this realistic? We are just discussing posabilities or ideas not finalized plans. All he has come up with is nothing works other than a draw! Well maybe that worked for him as both rams he got came off a draw. He only had to deal with a couple other guys and rutting sheep. Maybe if our herds were as good as he says, he could have gotten a big mature ram in a general zone!!!!! Im sure some one will say that this is jelousey(sp) and sure maybe it is a little, who doesnt want one of these tags! He had the oppertunity of hunting where things were "IMPROVED" so whats wrong with looking at improving more of the province?
Nobody has said there is a problem with the bighorn hunting only that if it can be improved then why not improve it.
SG

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

WOW!!
I just got information from a hunter that claims one of the driving forces behind the 5 year wait is a southern Alberta chapter of AFGA. If this fellow is correct the way it is worded is specifically aimed at punishing successful bighorn hunters. The motivation is the belief that a few hunters are killing too many sheep and a one year wait isn't long enough. This fellow said he knew nothing about APOS being involved.
If this is true it just goes to prove what I've said all along, we don't need enemies when we've got ourselves.

Hey 209 isn't that your old stomping grounds. There sure was alot of nice Rams there this year, I wonder how many Rams there that were mature.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by podman

I found this interesting the 2009 AFGA resolutions to present to govt. I agree with most of them, like for trophy sheep in an area that is not priority draw that it be once in a lifetime. Also draws were it is statistically impossible to draw in a lifetime go to lottery.

One I am not sure about is removing all OHV restrictions

here is the link

http://www.afga.org/documents.html?fileID=492

There is another 2009 document that goes through all of the proposed changes including who submitted them.

Podman these are last years (2009) resolutions, dealt with at the 2009 convention. I don't see this years resolutions there. I wonder if they post them before the convention? Good thinking though if it really is an AFGA club pushing this it will be in a resolution.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Haha, wow thats good. It's one thing to get different ages on a ram but splitting the difference... unreal.
I have heard of another way to determine age of a ram is to take a tooth and have it analyzed. Yes this is probably not a cost effective solution but from what I hear it is possible.
It is the CO's that age the ram at registration time correct and not the summer receptionist behind the desk? Granted they are government employees but aging sheep isn't rocket science and if shown the proper way and assuming they can count to ten it hopefully would not be a problem.

They were all CO's Swaro, one fellow was at both measurings. I didn't and still don't feel like bashing them for what some here feel is a committable offence or at the least a major character flaw. I look at it this way; their jobs encompass so much and there are so many things they know a heck of a lot more about than I do, I'd have to be pretty small minded and mean spirited to take this small occurrence and use it to judge them as idiots.

I was hoping you could tell me who did the study? LOL

As far as I can tell no one did any study, a club decided that too many hunters were shooting more than one ram, making it hard for the rest of the hunters to shoot a ram.

Bottom line someone thinks there is a problem and I don't like there solution so suggesting here is an alternative but your right not everyone is going to believe in it. I will also grant you that it seems more onerous than anything in place at the moment but sometimes more effort is the answer

“someone”? That is good enough for you to just offer up your rights because “someone” thinks there is a problem? Shouldn’t we actually see a study or something?

The COs wouldn't allow me to take pictures of them measuring or plugging a ram, it was no big deal just something for my scrapbook. But it made them uncomfortable. Do you suppose they are going to want to be involved in your system where their decision is the basis for punishment? I don't think so and I don't think it is fair to push it on them. I know the first time one was named in a law suit (which will come as sure as the sun rises in the east) the rest of them would refuse and who could blame them? Then what? We hire ram judges? Someone with some sort of legal standing because they are meting out punishment just like a court judge.

Over the last couple of days I've tried explaining your system to hunting buddies. None of these guys are hardcore like Sheephunter but all chase sheep every year they can. To a man when they realized that your plan would reward the guy with the oldest/biggest trophy they flipped. To a man they figured you had it exactly reversed from where it should be and suggested that the person with the big trophy should be punished the most, perhaps never allowed to hunt sheep again as he already had a trophy ram. These are just normal Joe Alberta hunters and all want is to put a sheep on the wall but none believe in the elitist ideas proffered by your plan. None believe that sheep are anymore special than any other big game species that can be hunted in Alberta. Now I know these people sound like heretics to you but they are just regular guys, hunters. These are the people you would stand in front of and explain why you with your big sheep shouldn’t be punished and they with their little one should. I know people like sheepguide don’t have the foresight or intelligence to reason this through but you do. Do you see where this can head?

I'm not mocking here Swaro just trying amid the clamor of the yapping dogs to have a discussion with you. perhaps we should take this to pms.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by 7MM Mike

209,
Are there not age based zones in BC for "Mature", as in 8yrs plus Bighorns already ( I thought spences Bridge perhaps)? Could we not stand to learn something from that system? Just suggesting there may be age based systems that function elsewhere......

Mike, I don't know the answer to your question. My understanding is that no place in north America has age based seasons for bighorn because of the difficulties aging them. Were they simple to do like thin horn then yes it would be a great system for getting older sheep on the mountain.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

These are just normal Joe Alberta hunters and all want is to put a sheep on the wall but none believe in the elitist ideas proffered by your plan. None believe that sheep are anymore special than any other big game species that can be hunted in Alberta.

I know people like sheepguide don’t have the foresight or intelligence to reason this through but you do. D

You explain you and your friends well here!!! This a big problem as some guys are very passionate about sheep hunting and the future of sheep. Some just want to put a sheep on the wall, they could care less what happens after that. Anyone that honestly beleive that bighorn sheep are no more special than whitetails or moose are the ones showing there lack of intelligence.

You can say im stupid in the way of conservation and maybe I am but I do realize how special it is to have bighorns in our province! If guys think that our sheep arent a special resource than they should maybe just hunt moose and deer!! Maybe they should look at how many people ever get a chance to see sheep let alone hunt them. Compare the areas bighorns can be hunted compared to other game animals... that right there shows that they are special and should be treated as such.

No 209 im maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer unlike the GINSU that you are but I know sheep and ill back that everyday.
SG

[209x50]

Originally Posted by choclab

sheepguide you keep bashing 209 for being negative, I think he is being realistic.

Thank you.
IF it was determined by a sanctioned study that hunting was affecting the overall age of the herd, THEN I'd be willing to look at strategies to change the hunt. Right now I’m dead against any off them.
If hunting was effecting the age of the herd then we are killing too many rams. Correct? Do we all agree on that?
So we would need a system to reduce the numbers of rams killed.
The 5 year wait plan MIGHT work IF we were at a 20% success rate for hunters. Then by the 6th year around 80% of the hunters wouldn’t be able to hunt and the number of rams killed might go down. Might. With our current success rate of 5 to 7% the wait would need to be in the neighbourhood of 20 years and even then with the uncontrollable factors of hunter numbers and the so many other things that can happen over that time period the outcome is far from certain.
So the 5 year plan doesn’t reduce rams killed - doesn’t put more sheep on the mountain.
Swaro’s plan to reward the guy who just won the lottery with no punishment to the sliding scale through the age classes is fraught with its own perils but overlooks the fact that most guys just want one sheep and are going to shoot the first legal ram they see, so what if there is a 6 year penalty attached.
This plan doesn’t guarantee any reduction of ram kills so no more sheep on the mountain. In addition either of these systems have been tested or proven anywhere that I’ve been able to discover.
A draw is the only certain way to control how many sheep are killed each year and we have plenty of evidence how well draws work with our other species in Alberta. However with a draw most people would be lucky to draw one tag or two in a lifetime.
As I said above I’m not in favour with any of these plans and until there is some hard evidence that we need to do something I think it is counter productive to meddle with the system.

[buddyhunter]

209 which club in the south is asking for this? I only ask because there has been a couple of people on here, Gulo and SLH, who have actually poken with biologists and stated that they are the ones considering the 5 year wait. Yet you seem to believe that it is a F&G club in the south that is pushing for this. I have memberships with many F&G clubs down here in the south and haven't heard of them pushing for longer wait times.

So which club is it?

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=209x50;486720]

If hunting was effecting the age of the herd then we are killing too many rams. Correct? Do we all agree on that?

Not affecting the age of the "HERD" just the age of huntable rams in open season areas

In addition either of these systems have been tested or proven anywhere that I’ve been able to discover.

So since something hasnt been proven else where its faulty. I thought alberta was full of leaders not followers

As I said above I’m not in favour with any of these plans and until there is some hard evidence that we need to do something I think it is counter productive to meddle with the system.

So no sense improving on something unless its absolutly needed is your frame of mind. If we can do something small that will help in the future is better than sitting around doing nothing!

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Mike, I don't know the answer to your question. My understanding is that no place in north America has age based seasons for bighorn because of the difficulties aging them. Were they simple to do like thin horn then yes it would be a great system for getting older sheep on the mountain.

This is directly from the BC Hunting Regs:
As you can see it is not soley age based but has both age and horn length.
Why can't we have a regional manager that is an expert in aging sheep?

Mountain Sheep - Mature Bighorn Ram
– means any bighorn ram mountain sheep
that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced
by true horn annuli as determined
by the regional manager or designate, or
whose horn tip, when viewed squarely
from the side extends upwards beyond the
forehead-nose bridge.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife...opsis_0910.pdf

[SLH]

Over the last couple of days I've tried explaining your system to hunting buddies. None of these guys are hardcore like Sheephunter but all chase sheep every year they can. To a man when they realized that your plan would reward the guy with the oldest/biggest trophy they flipped. To a man they figured you had it exactly reversed from where it should be and suggested that the person with the big trophy should be punished the most, perhaps never allowed to hunt sheep again as he already had a trophy ram. These are just normal Joe Alberta hunters and all want is to put a sheep on the wall but none believe in the elitist ideas proffered by your plan. None believe that sheep are anymore special than any other big game species that can be hunted in Alberta. Now I know these people sound like heretics to you but they are just regular guys, hunters. These are the people you would stand in front of and explain why you with your big sheep shouldn’t be punished and they with their little one should. I know people like sheepguide don’t have the foresight or intelligence to reason this through but you do. Do you see where this can head?
From 209's post.




I think that Swaro's idea has merit but I also beleive that it won't be implemented because of its complexity but 209 you should try and see the merit in that approach. First that big ram is not an every year occurence where as a legal ram could be. I will virtually gaurantee that if the only rams you shoot are 190 and over that very few people would have one and three would be unheard of unless some system like this was put into place to put more big rams on the mountain. I know when you just here it it seems counter intuitive but it makes sense if the ultimate goal is to have bigger rams on the mountain. As for standing in front of them and explaining its merits you have to explain to them that the problem hunter to big rams is not the guy killing a big ram but the guy killing a small one.

Personally I'd rather see a wait than a draw I can still be selective every year rather than feeling the pressure of last day of the season maybe only 3 more times in my life. My sense from discussions I've had is that there are other means to improving things before a draw will be implemented and perhaps some of the quad access issues in the south this past year are signs of things to come.

Does anyone know if AFGA has a direct line to the table that is making these decisions like the wild sheep federation has.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

This is directly from the BC Hunting Regs:
As you can see it is not soley age based but has both age and horn length.

Thank you for that. Are there any jurisdictions that judge legal bighorns by age alone?