Big sheep changes

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by SLH

Fair enough, it is frustrating that we are waiting here for a meeting in Mar. hopefully SRD can make their case and we can move forward with this whatever moving forward means. I suspect the info will still be controversial but at least a point to move on.

Lr how many rams in that pic you posted do you think are class IV?

I'm not sure any of them are.

I would say 5 Rams are 6.5 - 8.5 years so 5 good breeding Rams. I will admit if the data shows 4-5 year old sheep are doing the majority of the breeding we have a problem. However I'm very skeptical of the percentages esrd is producing for mature sheep. Yes I believe there are 5 mature sheep there. I do believe a class 3 ram turning class 4 in 6 months is a mature sheep.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

However I'm very skeptical of the percentages esrd is producing for mature sheep.

And that is the healthy part of the debate right there.

Take care.

[Titanium79]

To all that have replyed in this thread. Quote this in your answer. What is a mature ram? What age class ram does the breeding? What age is a sheep capable of breeding?

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by LCCFisherman

Sheep should be draw only.. and I believe if you put it to vote alberta would speak and you guys who kill sheep every year would be silenced... Draw only.

Get back to the fishing section.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

I would say 5 Rams are 6.5 - 8.5 years so 5 good breeding Rams. I will admit if the data shows 4-5 year old sheep are doing the majority of the breeding we have a problem. However I'm very skeptical of the percentages esrd is producing for mature sheep. Yes I believe there are 5 mature sheep there. I do believe a class 3 ram turning class 4 in 6 months is a mature sheep.

So if you had two brother Rams on the mountain whether one ram was 5.5 and the other was 8.5 and the younger brother was doing the breeding because that year the 8.5 yr old got shot it doesn't really matter because they are still passing on the same genetics. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Again comprehension is the problem. .26 pages of me saying i havent seen the data they are WITH HOLDING lmao ... i highly doubt you have either...

Thank god your not my kid..geez

You keep talking about me being the authority on sheep hunting... But didnt you pop the
eyes out on your last sheep? What are the rules about that? Or wait you didnt comprehend them either...lol .....

The only one with a comprehension problem here is you. I told you what to do if you wanted information, obviously you are far too lazy for that and want to sit and wait for someone to spoon feed the information to you.

Actually popped out the eyes of two rams. How come Stan Hawes never mentioned a thing about it when they were taken to him for registration? Because they weren't little tiny dink rams that barely made the definition of legal. Call him and ask him if you like. I have nothing to hide.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

The only one with a comprehension problem here is you. I told you what to do if you wanted information, obviously you are far too lazy for that and want to sit and wait for someone to spoon feed the information to you.

Actually popped out the eyes of two rams. How come Stan Hawes never mentioned a thing about it when they were taken to him for registration? Because they weren't little tiny dink rams that barely made the definition of legal. Call him and ask him if you like. I have nothing to hide.

Really ? So you have seen the harvest data with the horn legths and circumference from the 70's ?

Or the directions on how to properly age and measure the length of a horn, that eserd provided all their staff from the 70's?

Aerial surveys and sheep numbers from the last two years?


So you say you've seen those? If you post one thing from the horn harvest data...i will be shocked...but I'll expect a lame excuse instead.

Regs clearly state that you cant remove the eye... thats a comprehension problem. .. ill ask stan, next i see him at the coffee shop.

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

So if you had two brother Rams on the mountain whether one ram was 5.5 and the other was 8.5 and the younger brother was doing the breeding because that year the 8.5 yr old got shot it doesn't really matter because they are still passing on the same genetics. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't say that as a genetic problem having 5 year and younger Rams being heavily involved in the rut. However I do believe they don't have the muscle mass of a 6-10 year old ram to be doing all the breeding and make it through the winter. I'm not saying they are dieing off through the winter, some might be but it could affect horn growth if they struggle through. I've seen it in areas such as 304 with elk and the lack of mature Bulls.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

I don't say that as a genetic problem having 5 year and younger Rams being heavily involved in the rut. However I do believe they don't have the muscle mass of a 6-10 year old ram to be doing all the breeding and make it through the winter. I'm not saying they are dieing off through the winter, some might be but it could affect horn growth if they struggle through. I've seen it in areas such as 304 with elk and the lack of mature Bulls.

I was just asking Lr thank you for commenting as you did point out one thing that I hadn't thought of which is the younger Rams having a harder winter. Lack of mature Bulls in 304... I know of four Bulls to come out of there in the last two years that break 330" and in a zone where they are hit really hard year after year. That is impressive. But we should save that for another thread

[Lr1000]

You can add one more to that list of bulls. I was lucky enough last year.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

I don't say that as a genetic problem having 5 year and younger Rams being heavily involved in the rut. However I do believe they don't have the muscle mass of a 6-10 year old ram to be doing all the breeding and make it through the winter. I'm not saying they are dieing off through the winter, some might be but it could affect horn growth if they struggle through. I've seen it in areas such as 304 with elk and the lack of mature Bulls.

There is no evidence that Alberta rams are either dying or producing smaller horns due to rut induced stresses caused by age or ram ratios.

The researchers are stating this IS NOT happening. Only Bdub claims that there is data to support this as the cause of concern, and he appears to have decided to withhold the evidence.

[walking buffalo]

I'll ask again in case the question was missed.

Crazy Davey and SLH,

Do you agree with the regulation change authors' conclusion that selective hunting under the 4/5th rule has caused a genetic shift to smaller, slower growing horns in Alberta rams?

[SLH]

No.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by SLH

No.

Thanks for your answer. Still giving some time for Crazy Davey to answer the question.


In the meantime....

Do you accept the claim by these researchers that horn size has shrunk from 1980 - 2010, if yes, why did this occur?

Do you agree with Bdub that the purported low mature ram population is compounded by rutting stress induced mortality? Do you agree with Bdub that the purported low mature ram population is causing a decrease in reproduction rates?

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'll ask again in case the question was missed.

Crazy Davey and SLH,

Do you agree with the regulation change authors' conclusion that selective hunting under the 4/5th rule has caused a genetic shift to smaller, slower growing horns in Alberta rams?

If you took 100 rams from the 70' through to today almost all would age min a year younger then they did it back in the 70's due to how SRD has aged them for the last 10-15 years compare to the 70-80's

[crazy_davey]

Sorry White buffalo, missed where you asked. No.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Sorry White buffalo, missed where you asked. No.

Still waiting on a pm from you. I think I will be waiting for a long time as I think you know nothing more than us all.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

I think I will be waiting for a long time as I think you know nothing more than us all.

Think whatever you want. You will be waiting a long time unless you do some leg work and find out for yourself. Names, email addresses, phone numbers are all posted on the internet. Get to it or sit back and wait for it to be handed to you at a later date, I could care less.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Sorry White buffalo, missed where you asked. No.

Did you miss the stats question too?

Or is your silence, indicative that you lack that info...like everyone?

Cause the other info is on my computer too, just not what i want...do some reasearch, ive been at this for alot longer than most.... ive had the form sent to me for horn size, back in 2004.... but then jim Allen put stop on it, just as they were about to mail it... then all this came about shortly after...among numerous other documents. ..

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Think whatever you want. You will be waiting a long time unless you do some leg work and find out for yourself. Names, email addresses, phone numbers are all posted on the internet. Get to it or sit back and wait for it to be handed to you at a later date, I could care less.

Ok super Dave I will do that. I don't care what they told you. If it is not made public something is not up to par. This is the way SRD works these days. Nothing is written in stone. I will bet that it stays the same.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Did you miss the stats question too?

Or is your silence, indicative that you lack that info...like everyone?

Cause the other info is on my computer too, just not what i want...do some reasearch, ive been at this for alot longer than most.... ive had the form sent to me for horn size, back in 2004.... but then jim Allen put stop on it, just as they were about to mail it... then all this came about shortly after...among numerous other documents. ..

Yep. Way to many holes in there data to implement this kind of a change. I bet a few would challenge this in court.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks for your answer. Still giving some time for Crazy Davey to answer the question.


In the meantime....

Do you accept the claim by these researchers that horn size has shrunk from 1980 - 2010, if yes, why did this occur?

Do you agree with Bdub that the purported low mature ram population is compounded by rutting stress induced mortality? Do you agree with Bdub that the purported low mature ram population is causing a decrease in reproduction rates?

Do you believe that there are too many dink rams being shot?

Do you believe that you can have a successful ram herd and happy hunters under a full curl regulation?

Do you believe that being under the 5% threshold is OK?

There are lots of reasons I believe this is good.

You believe this is the thin edge of the elimination of the hunt? So what's you info?

[Ballzy]

My two cents same as ya ha tinda always shoot your best heard bull and then see what happens.

[Ballzy]

My other two cents that just ****ing me off I have sheep hunting since 1985 and had a family that sheep hunted since 1959 they are doing better then they ever had accoring to my grampa for the last few year the full curl rams are getting younger and younger. An old brumed ram or mature will always be my choice or anyone that comes with me because that is whatt I choice. Last full curl I seen shot was 4.5 years olds lamp tips.

[Ballzy]

Another point instead of buying good optics alway
Ride the top of the hills and sky line yourselve as much as possilbe. Seeems to be the most resonable way way to hunt

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Lr1000

I don't say that as a genetic problem having 5 year and younger Rams being heavily involved in the rut. However I do believe they don't have the muscle mass of a 6-10 year old ram to be doing all the breeding and make it through the winter. I'm not saying they are dieing off through the winter, some might be but it could affect horn growth if they struggle through. I've seen it in areas such as 304 with elk and the lack of mature Bulls.

You are on exactly the right track with this LR1000. Young rams doing the majority of the breeding leads to increased mortality of that age class and decreased horn growth as they have expended a great deal more energy during the rut in the absence of mature older rams than they would otherwise in a healthy mix of rams. It has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with ram herd structure. In a healthy herd structure we will see an increased survival rate of younger rams into older rams as they do not participate as heavily in the rut. They will also have more energy left over to put into horn growth the next season. To prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt like WB and others would like to see first is a virtually impossible task when dealing with such a complex subject like wild sheep. The best biologists and mangers can do is apply what they have learned so far from past trends, surveys, different management practices elsewhere, the thinking of the best minds on the subject and so on and move forward in the best interest of the resource. They have been doing an experiment in 400 for quite a while and I think what it will show is the success of the full curl rule on the health of the herd and probably surprising to many opponents is the success as well for hunters. I am not privy to any data that any one of us can not find out on their own. I believe in the research I believe in and the logical outcome of how we have managed our sheep in 400 and elsewhere. I already know what the new data is going to point to when it becomes public because I believe in the thinking of a very smart biologist. It's the same thing that the old data has been pointing to for some time now.

I am and will try to push for a change to our regulations so that we are not killing so many young rams because I believe it is bad for the resource. As a passionate sheep Hunter I also want to maintain as much opportunity to hunt sheep as I can without harming that resource. Come March 4 we should see some more info that I know already is going to point to the need for a change.

[Lr1000]

The biggest reason I don't believe we are under the 5% during the rut is because our harvest numbers are steady. Most sheep that are being taken are breeding sheep. There is not a abundance of young Longhorned Rams IMO. So if you add the roughly 220 sheep harvested a year with the percentages srd is giving us post season we should be above 5%. That's not including park Rams. If we were taking more sheep then the overall herd could support I think our harvest numbers would be dropping significantly. Also I don't have much faith in our bios. It seems they contradict each other on every topic. The demise of ram mnt. Hunter indused genetic harm theory.

[pottymouth]

I agree with alot of what your saying when it comes to behavior. But i would like to see the paper work on it. Also I'm having a hard time believing that the young rams are doing as much of the breeding they think....for numerous reasons, that i see in their reports...

My big question. ..

Is wmu 400 the best case study they have? Or is wmu 438 ?

Originally Posted by bdub

You are on exactly the right track with this LR1000. Young rams doing the majority of the breeding leads to increased mortality of that age class and decreased horn growth as they have expended a great deal more energy during the rut in the absence of mature older rams than they would otherwise in a healthy mix of rams. It has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with ram herd structure. In a healthy herd structure we will see an increased survival rate of younger rams into older rams as they do not participate as heavily in the rut. They will also have more energy left over to put into horn growth the next season. To prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt like WB and others would like to see first is a virtually impossible task when dealing with such a complex subject like wild sheep. The best biologists and mangers can do is apply what they have learned so far from past trends, surveys, different management practices elsewhere, the thinking of the best minds on the subject and so on and move forward in the best interest of the resource. They have been doing an experiment in 400 for quite a while and I think what it will show is the success of the full curl rule on the health of the herd and probably surprising to many opponents is the success as well for hunters. I am not privy to any data that any one of us can not find out on their own. I believe in the research I believe in and the logical outcome of how we have managed our sheep in 400 and elsewhere. I already know what the new data is going to point to when it becomes public because I believe in the thinking of a very smart biologist. It's the same thing that the old data has been pointing to for some time now.

I am and will try to push for a change to our regulations so that we are not killing so many young rams because I believe it is bad for the resource. As a passionate sheep Hunter I also want to maintain as much opportunity to hunt sheep as I can without harming that resource. Come March 4 we should see some more info that I know already is going to point to the need for a change.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by Ballzy

My other two cents that just ****ing me off I have sheep hunting since 1985 and had a family that sheep hunted since 1959 they are doing better then they ever had accoring to my grampa for the last few year the full curl rams are getting younger and younger. An old brumed ram or mature will always be my choice or anyone that comes with me because that is whatt I choice. Last full curl I seen shot was 4.5 years olds lamp tips.

This is the truth. There have been multiple CO's state that ram numbers are at the highest they have seen ever. Not just rams either Trophy size rams.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with alot of what your saying when it comes to behavior. But i would like to see the paper work on it. Also I'm having a hard time believing that the young rams are doing as much of the breeding they think....for numerous reasons, that i see in their reports...

My big question. ..

Is wmu 400 the best case study they have? Or is wmu 438 ?

That is the biggest problem. Those two areas are not the same as the rest of the province IMO.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

This is the truth. There have been multiple CO's state that ram numbers are at the highest they have seen ever. Not just rams either Trophy size rams.

That is the biggest problem. Those two areas are not the same as the rest of the province IMO.

One full curl vs one prime habitat....makes for a great debate, i think.