Found this in an elk

[HoytCRX32]

You found my elk!!!! Thanks for retrieval, butchering etc. You can keep the broadhead, one front quarter and send me the rest...

KIDDING KIDDING KIDDING! (but I do love elk steaks)

[bucknaked333]

What zone did you shoot that elk.

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by bucknaked333

What zone did you shoot that elk.

Winner, winner... chicken dinner.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by hoytcanon

Your full of crap... or you are shooting a 10# children's recurve.

You mean you can't do that with your arrows? Must be wimpy arrows or you're full of crap!

No it wasn't a child's bow...I was shooting a 65 lb ACS longbow. Used Easton traditional legacy shafts, 100 grain brass insert, 300 grain VPA heads. Aluminium external footing about 3" long and glued in nocks with an aluminum nock collar. Arrow didn't fail, nocks didn't drive foreward and split the shaft and the head didn't bend and still spun true.

Just because you haven't seen it done doesn't mean it doesn't work

[muzzy]

what zone

[calgarychef]

212...

[TBark]

Likely the area below spine and above lungs, unlucky area, about a few fists in size.
Even and exit hole in that area elk would have lived, for a while anyways.
But the arrow did lose energy for some reason, poundage, distance or deflected,

TBark

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

You mean you can't do that with your arrows? Must be wimpy arrows or you're full of crap!

No it wasn't a child's bow...I was shooting a 65 lb ACS longbow. Used Easton traditional legacy shafts, 100 grain brass insert, 300 grain VPA heads. Aluminium external footing about 3" long and glued in nocks with an aluminum nock collar. Arrow didn't fail, nocks didn't drive foreward and split the shaft and the head didn't bend and still spun true.

Just because you haven't seen it done doesn't mean it doesn't work

No, what it means is, you don't even have a rudimentary understanding of how archery equipment functions on game to bring about a rapidly fatal outcome.

Arrows are not bullets... they don't function in the same way, they are not designed to shock on a short wound channel as bullets do, they are designed to slice on a long wound channel slicing tissue and causing hemorrhage. Your brick wall test is a pretty moot demonstration... arrows are to be aimed at vital soft tissue, not bone... if you miss vital soft tissue... "you" missed, and your brick breaking arrow ain't going to help.

If you have a properly tuned bow, an appropriate level of energy and a properly spined arrow... when you fire against a brick wall... the arrow "should" fail... and that is NOT a statement of it's effectiveness.

[petew]

Originally Posted by TBark

Likely the area below spine and above lungs, unlucky area, about a few fists in size.
Even and exit hole in that area elk would have lived, for a while anyways.
But the arrow did lose energy for some reason, poundage, distance or deflected,

TBark

Living animals do not have an area below the spine and above the lungs. That's old wives tales. The lung completely fills the cavity in a living animal unless it has a puncture that deflates the lungs, then it dies.

[calgarychef]

Ok this I gotta hear... Why "should" an arrow fail? It will fail if it hits at an angle and causes the shaft to "whip" but a properly tuned arrow doesn't do that it hits straight on. So a properly tuned arrow is inherently more likely to break is that what you're saying? Or the sharp broadhead makes the arrow break? I'm a bit at a loss here to understand ...so you're saying that while shooting at soft tissue you won't hit bone? What if you hit the shoulder would you want an arrow that will continue on or you prefer it to break on contact with bone?

When you shoot the big stuff a robust arrow is a good idea but if it's good enough for big animals why shouldn't it be good enough for smaller animals? If an arrow breaks entering a deer it's failed plain and simple. If it gets broken off in the mad dash afterward, well that's collateral damage and I don't mind it.

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Ok this I gotta hear... Why "should" an arrow fail? It will fail if it hits at an angle and causes the shaft to "whip" but a properly tuned arrow doesn't do that it hits straight on. So a properly tuned arrow is inherently more likely to break is that what you're saying? Or the sharp broadhead makes the arrow break? I'm a bit at a loss here to understand ...so you're saying that while shooting at soft tissue you won't hit bone? What if you hit the shoulder would you want an arrow that will continue on or you prefer it to break on contact with bone?

When you shoot the big stuff a robust arrow is a good idea but if it's good enough for big animals why shouldn't it be good enough for smaller animals? If an arrow breaks entering a deer it's failed plain and simple. If it gets broken off in the mad dash afterward, well that's collateral damage and I don't mind it.

You are clearly not a physics major and are likely new to archery.

Apparently you also don't understand how the draw force curve applies energy to an arrow... the reason it SHOULD fail is because it must be properly spined to match the force dynamics of that particular bow... in other words arrows must FLEX. If you view an arrow, in slow motion, through the release cycle until it disengages from the string, it goes through a series of bending as the thrust is applied to the rear of the arrow. Thus spine timing is critical to the arrows recovery and accurately shooting the projectile... ever wonder why they design different arrow "spines" (or flexes) for different peak weight (and different draw force curves) bows? Why not just make one arrow spine for all bows... if it is as simple as not breaking on a brick wall.... I could simply shoot a 32" X 5/8" rebar, that probably wouldn't break in a cow elk... NO, because arrows must FLEX to be shot accurately, engineers, in essence, manufacture "weakness" into arrows in order to allow them to correct more effectively after thrust is applied... ergo, in order to be a proper arrow for a particular set up, with sufficient thrust applied to it... an arrow shot into a brick wall SHOULD fail, or one of two things has happened... the arrow is spined to stiffly (too strong) for that particular thrust cycle or the thrust is too LITTLE.

So, which is it? Are your arrows to stiff or is your bow to weak?

This is overly simplified, I felt the need in this case to keep it so...

I started with homemade ash self bows 40 years ago and shot traditional long bows and recurves far longer than I have compounds, so I am not slighting them when I say this, but the thrust cycle of your longbow, pales in comparison with the thrust cycle of the modern hard cam bows, that most hunters are shooting these days... and modern hard cam bows are vastly more critical of arrow spine than the parabolic thrust cycle of traditional bows.

[hoytcanon]

P.S - I'm not here for a pizzing match... I took exception to your condemnation of some other archer and his equipment... condemnation which was premised on faulty knowledge and a misunderstanding of the science involved.

I wish you luck in the coming archery season.

[calgarychef]

That's a great explanation of archers paradox and you're right about arrow spine being important. Unfortunately spine has very little or nothing to do with whether an arrow hitting a solid object will fail or not. I'd suggest you look at Dr. Ashby work, it might help you to understand why arrows don't have to fail if they're properly made...that's a most ridiculous statement.

By the way I'm not a beginning hunter and I've hunted more species and more places than you probably realise.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Most arrows, set up for elk hunting with a bow also setup for elk, shot from a modern compound bow premium or not will bust if sent into a solid object that cannot be penetrated.

Stored energy needs to go somewhere.

LC

[Shawnw]

That is kind of a neat find I myself have never found anything like that not even a bullet

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Most arrows, set up for elk hunting with a bow also setup for elk, shot from a modern compound bow premium or not will bust if sent into a solid object that cannot be penetrated.

Stored energy needs to go somewhere.

LC

My point exactly... If your arrows aren't breaking when shot into a brick wall then something is wrong... not to mention his claim that his broadheads did not deform and continued to spin in a concentric fashion.

[jlgsgw]

Anytime I've hit a solid object my insert goes about a quarter of the way back into the arrow.... easton, goldtip and carbon express all the same .... either way I salvage the nock and the rest is garbage

[normanrd]

Whenever I hit something solid with my arrows it's usually a member of my shooting groups arrow, and they don't get to keep their nock, lol. Right Lefty? Lol.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by normanrd

Whenever I hit something solid with my arrows it's usually a member of my shooting groups arrow, and they don't get to keep their nock, lol. Right Lefty? Lol.

LOL....likewise, or it could involve driving a larger diameter arrow into a smaller diameter one.

LC

[normanrd]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

LOL....likewise, or it could involve driving a larger diameter arrow into a smaller diameter one.

LC

Remington has played that game with me recently! Too funny. I still chuckle when I think about that day. It was a good time.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by hoytcanon

My point exactly... If your arrows aren't breaking when shot into a brick wall then something is wrong... not to mention his claim that his broadheads did not deform and continued to spin in a concentric fashion.

Well we're getting off topic but I'll play the game... There's nothing wrong with my setup that they didn't break or deform. In fact it speaks volumes about dedication to perfecting equipment before an important hunt. A footed carbon can be shot many many times into a hard surface without damage. the footing stops the shaft from mushrooming and the insert is prevented from being driven back, lots of people do this and it's a tough set up.

As for the head not deforming, have you ever seen a VPA head? They're machined out of solid steel and easily tough enough to shoot into a brick wall and keep on going. I did have to resharpen it as it stopped shaving, perhaps you'd consider that a failure of the broadhead but I don't. It did still spin true although I was slightly horrified that it might not because those things are expensive.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by jlgsgw

Anytime I've hit a solid object my insert goes about a quarter of the way back into the arrow.... easton, goldtip and carbon express all the same .... either way I salvage the nock and the rest is garbage

True but have you ever footed the shaft? That almost always prevents this kind of failure.

[jlgsgw]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

True but have you ever footed the shaft? That almost always prevents this kind of failure.

Had to look footing the shaft up lol. I can see how that would sturdy things up , seems like a lot of extra work , but probably a good idea for getting longer life out of an arrow. Learn something new everyday

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I did have to resharpen it as it stopped shaving, perhaps you'd consider that a failure of the broadhead but I don't.

Why would you have to resharpen the broadhead... if you hit an impenetrable object and the tip of the broadhead did not deform then the blades would have not contacted anything... did the unbreakable broadhead become dull by falling to the ground after surviving being shot into a brick wall?

Interesting how all that stored energy just magically dissipated on that brick wall... I guess Newton should have stopped at Two Laws... was there a sound... like a tree falling in the forest?

[58thecat]

Arrow did not fail, shooter failed to place the arrow in a kill zone.

[calgarychef]

Hoyt now you're just being silly. I had to sharpen the broadhead because the edges were dulled by being forced into the brick and being made of baked clay it was abrasive and dulled my keen edge. Listening to you it sounds like your broadheads never get dulled shooting into an animal, of course they do. Shooting bricks is even harder on the edges .

I'm still wondering how you can explain how how an arrow "has to fail" when hitting a solid object. Do you mean that all of your arrows break when you hit something? Perhaps they're woefully underspined? All shafts flex when we shoot and when we hit objects too but they shouldn't break (generally). I think you're doing something wrong or your setup is inadequate

Have you ever footed a shaft? Do you know what I mean when I mention external footing?

[hoytcanon]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I'm still wondering how you can explain how how an arrow "has to fail" when hitting a solid object.

The explanation was already given... go back and read it again.

You have a good day.

[calgarychef]

Hoyt, you're wrong it's plain and simple. Enjoy your archery and try not to break too many shafts

[MugEye]

I'm a little confused with your setup . Are you shooting a 650grain total weight arrow with a 50 lb long bow ? Seems like over kill . I think that's why your not braking your arrows . Your shooting a rebar with a kids bow . If that works good for you and your happy , well then good . But don't tell other archerse there wrong when there shooting setups that a geared to shooting 30 -80 yards .

[petew]

Originally Posted by MugEye

I'm a little confused with your setup . Are you shooting a 650grain total weight arrow with a 50 lb long bow ? Seems like over kill . I think that's why your not braking your arrows . Your shooting a rebar with a kids bow . If that works good for you and your happy , well then good . But don't tell other archerse there wrong when there shooting setups that a geared to shooting 30 -80 yards .

Don't be confused, This is not unusual for traditional hunting arrows. I shoot heavier than this from 50#. 50# isn't a kids bow either. LOL