Leupold LR Duplex or B&C reticle vs Zeiss Rapid Z

[Stinky Coyote]

Duk, if you wanna come shoot my dial up set up just holler....i think its the end of the line when you start into the longer range game but thats just my opinion.

Sounds like you just want to extract a bit more out of the 30-06 with partitions so my vote would be the lr reticle, i don't like busy reticles and you should easily see 400 yrds and shoot well.

Hypothetical, lets say you catch the long range bug a bit after playing at 400 with your 06...,then if you found a rifle (probably magnum of some sort) someday capable of hitting well/hard enough etc. to 7-800 yrds that you loved to death and was plenty sub-moa capable i volunteer to help you set up with dial up, i have all the stuff and place to shoot. But come shoot mine if you don't believe its the ultimate way to set up and see for yourself.....i wouldn't do dial up on a more average rifle/load/accuracy though...imo you put the effort into a really tight shooter with the power to go long long.

Good luck with your set up....i don't think your taking things far enough. Its like buying cheap binos, then upgrading to mid-grade, then ending up with alpha class. Would save money in the end if just went stright to the alpha class.....most people i find getting into long range generally end up going alpha on rifle/cartridge/dial-up end of day so i might be able to save you some money in the long run with that bit of advice. Sure could have saved myself a few steps and bunch of cash along the way had i lived by that.

Good luck with your choice and good luck not getting bit by the long range bug.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I was actually talking about the original B&C reticle that didn't incorporate the three position magnification ring. As Duk was thinking of adding this onto an existing scope, I doubt he'd see the performance offered from the newer style B&C reticle scopes, although I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure, however, the original B&C reticle was designed for a 300WM. The newer style does offer a bit more versatility for sure but it can still be up to 10" out at 500 yards even when dialed to the appropriate cartridge category.

surely you can fine tune it to your load closer than than.... like the rapid z? don't you just keep playing with magnification....like the rapid z? Is there a difference between the two?

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

surely you can fine tune it to your load closer than than.... like the rapid z? don't you just keep playing with magnification....like the rapid z? Is there a difference between the two?

I'm not sure on that...possibly but there is no on-line support and on the Leupold scope itself, there are three marks on the magnification ring that break it into three fairly broad cartridge ranges. I owned a couple of the earlier versions but don't own a newer one. The original one didn't work that way. It all depends on what focal plane the reticle is etched on plus it only works with etched reticles.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm not sure on that...possibly but there is no on-line support and on the Leupold scope itself, there are three marks on the magnification ring that break it into three fairly broad cartridge ranges. I owned a couple of the earlier versions but don't own a newer one. The original one didn't work that way. It all depends on what focal plane the reticle is etched on plus it only works with etched reticles.

I shift in magnification is a shift in magnification. If you can count to three and read your name the B&C seems to work whether there are colours, dots, numbers, lines, or a portrait indicating proper magnification settings. The B&C reticle is also an etched reticle. Maybe a phone call to Steve Timm would shed some light on the subject. He was instrumental in it's development.

Originally Posted by chuck

I shift in magnification is a shift in magnification. If you can count to three and read your name the B&C seems to work whether there are colours, dots, numbers, lines, or a portrait indicating proper magnification settings. The B&C reticle is also an etched reticle. Maybe a phone call to Steve Timm would shed some light on the subject. He was instrumental in it's development.

The beauty of the Rapid Z system is that it allows you to get the maximum zoom out of a specific scope, as the reticle you choose is dependant on cartridge. The problem with the Leupold is that even though changing magnification might change secondary points of zero, your optimum magnification might only be 9 or 10x on a 14x scope. The Rapid Z allows you to choose the reticle first that allows you to use near mximum zoom for your specific cartidge. That's why they offer a variety of Rapid Z reticles. On my 270WSM for example, the magnification setting is 13.56 on a 14x scope. The Leupold system works similarly but it is definitely not as refined. I'm sure Steve could explain it to you if you gave him a call.

There's nothing wrong with the Leupold system, it's just not as refined as the Zeiss.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The beauty of the Rapid Z system is that it allows you to get the maximum zoom out of a specific scope, as the reticle you choose is dependant on cartridge. The problem with the Leupold is that even though changing magnification might change secondary points of zero, your optimum magnification might only be 9 or 10x on a 14x scope. The Rapid Z allows you to choose the reticle first that allows you to use near mximum zoom for your specific cartidge. That's why they offer a variety of Rapid Z reticles. On my 270WSM for example, the magnification setting is 13.56 on a 14x scope. The Leupold system works similarly but it is definitely not as refined. I'm sure Steve could explain it to you if you gave him a call.

There's nothing wrong with the Leupold system, it's just not as refined as the Zeiss.

thats the best info i've read on the rapid z yet, just learn that or something? wtf took you so long explaining that lol, that would definitely be a consideration for me, probably not a big deal to anyone wanting to shoot 500 yrds or less so the leupy would be fine at say 9 or 10x, but definitely makes a difference when trying to wring out 800 yrds! that extra magnification would be worth it forsure, thanks sheep

definitely makes one research between the two more critical to match up better to your cartridge choice....given that is something i never considered i like dial up even more so now that i know that as your already choosing a scope somewhat to match a particular cartridge and while yes you can move the system to another gun....will it match a totally different cartridge as well? and with dial up for me i would move scope putting moa calibrated turret back on and once data collection sorted then a new kenton made up....that could be cheaper in the end than going rapid z route

LOL

The other consideration, is that you may not have enough magnification get the secondary hash marks adjusted to even 300,400,500 yard zeroes. When you start playing with the Zeiss online calculator, you quickly realize how important it is to choose the proper reticle for your cartridge and load.

As I said earlier, I think the Leupold system was designed around the ballistics of a .300WM shooting 180 grain bullets so it does fall within the middle of a wide range of cartridges.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Duk, if you wanna come shoot my dial up set up just holler....i think its the end of the line when you start into the longer range game but thats just my opinion.

Sounds like you just want to extract a bit more out of the 30-06 with partitions so my vote would be the lr reticle, i don't like busy reticles and you should easily see 400 yrds and shoot well.

Hypothetical, lets say you catch the long range bug a bit after playing at 400 with your 06...,then if you found a rifle (probably magnum of some sort) someday capable of hitting well/hard enough etc. to 7-800 yrds that you loved to death and was plenty sub-moa capable i volunteer to help you set up with dial up, i have all the stuff and place to shoot. But come shoot mine if you don't believe its the ultimate way to set up and see for yourself.....i wouldn't do dial up on a more average rifle/load/accuracy though...imo you put the effort into a really tight shooter with the power to go long long.

Good luck with your set up....i don't think your taking things far enough. Its like buying cheap binos, then upgrading to mid-grade, then ending up with alpha class. Would save money in the end if just went stright to the alpha class.....most people i find getting into long range generally end up going alpha on rifle/cartridge/dial-up end of day so i might be able to save you some money in the long run with that bit of advice. Sure could have saved myself a few steps and bunch of cash along the way had i lived by that.

Good luck with your choice and good luck not getting bit by the long range bug.

I can't say I am a real tinkerer like some of you and I currently don't handload. My initial plans are not based around 700 or 800 yard shots rather having the ability to be more accurate and have a reference point to work with on distances like 400 yards rather than estimating hold over with a standard duplex reticle.

[Stinky Coyote]

go for the lr reticle

for the record....i don't reload either, you can find sub-moa with todays rifles and premium ammos....and that kind of accuracy will take you a long way if you pick the right gear and cartridge, we could set you up in a few range trips pretty easy if you end up with the right gear at some point, offer is open, in meantime with current rig my vote is for lr reticle, you'll be surprised how fun it will be to get that dialed in and 400 will seem so easy when you've played with it a bit

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

go for the lr reticle

for the record....i don't reload either, you can find sub-moa with todays rifles and premium ammos....and that kind of accuracy will take you a long way if you pick the right gear and cartridge, we could set you up in a few range trips pretty easy if you end up with the right gear at some point, offer is open, in meantime with current rig my vote is for lr reticle, you'll be surprised how fun it will be to get that dialed in and 400 will seem so easy when you've played with it a bit

Appreciate the offer. I will be getting something figured out here hopefully sooner than later. I'm looking forward to tinkering with whatever route I end up going. Shooting a Sako 75 30-06 with 180 gr Federal Premium NP.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Appreciate the offer. I will be getting something figured out here hopefully sooner than later. I'm looking forward to tinkering with whatever route I end up going. Shooting a Sako 75 30-06 with 180 gr Federal Premium NP.

howz it shoot? can't say i'm a fan of the bc of the partition but if your running any paper at 100 yrds to check, grab some federal premium 180 accubonds (if they have that for 30-06...or anything accubond) and if they are sub-moa then we can build you an easy 6-700 yrd rig(haven't run the numbers to see how far the 30-06 loads can go in 60 moa from a low 200-ish yrd zero but i'm betting 700 yrds in one rotation)...sako is one of those manufacturers that could be the type of gear necessary...i personally hate having something that i haven't set up to use it closer to its actual potential....and you could be sitting on the perfect and most expensive part of a 6-700 yrd set up! i'm going to check on some ammos and calculate some possibles as that could be a great rifle to set up to potential imo! no pressure, i like running numbers for fun and trying to get people into this a bit...its sooooo much fun

p.s. i have to go see what scope you have again...it might just take a trip to korth and hundred buck for a turret....not a reticle

[Stinky Coyote]

ok, so running the 180 federal accubond load with a bc around .5 at 4000' elevation and 225 yrd zero you will get too about 675 yrds in one rotation of the knob...and you still have just under the recommended 1800 fps impact velocity at 650 yrds (1757 fps) and 1234 ft/lbs energy...your above the 1800 fps at 600 yrds. And in the mountains you can add 50 yrds to that if your up in the 7000' elevation area.

So, you could have a system where you range, and dial right to the range and go 675 yrds in one rotation. The knob would start at 0 (225 yrds) then there are hash marks every 25 yrds then big number 3 for 300, then 4 for 400 etc. so its super easy and fast to dial to any range your rangefinder comes up with. AND....we can run the knob at 5000' elevation and 0 degrees so that your right up the middle of where you hunt and will be off the least amount of any other system once past 500 yrds....if you don't have the time to make the quick mental calculation of 1 or 2 clicks this way or that way for elevation/temp compensation at 600 yrds and up sort of thing....if your only out 2 clicks at 600 for example due to being at say 7000' then that only means your out 3" either up or down from your hold....thats more accurate than any other set up your coming to come up with imo....thats dead critter still.

So...keep in mind, you might not have to spend much to set this up at all. Just need an accubond to go 1" or less at 100 and we're good to go. We can collect the drop data in a couple hours round trip from my house if you can do the paper work to see if the ab shoots for you? Then its a matter of ordering up the knob to match and your good to go. I have the gongs, kestrel 2000, chrony etc. so we can get the accurate drop data needed to set that up. You'll see its much simpler than it sounds.

[Pathfinder76]

Interesting. So you can get a specific reticle that is close to your actual trajectory with Zeiss.


Oh wait. Leupold will do one to exactly duplicate your trajectory.

Am I missing something here?

Originally Posted by chuck

Interesting. So you can get a specific reticle that is close to your actual trajectory with Zeiss.


Oh wait. Leupold will do one to exactly duplicate your trajectory.

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing something here....

Come on Chuck....obtuse is not a colour you wear well.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

Interesting. So you can get a specific reticle that is close to your actual trajectory with Zeiss.


Oh wait. Leupold will do one to exactly duplicate your trajectory.

Am I missing something here?

Duk.....this could work too i suppose, i would still collect accurate drop data and correct it for 5000' 0 degrees before i sent leupold any data for the reticle match, to cover all your scenerios with most accuracy. If they won't give you hash marks to 600 with little ones half way between for 50 yrd markers then don't waste your time imo....put the money into dial up if the gun can shoot those ab's 1" or better.

[Stinky Coyote]

http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.asp...2fbalcalc.ascx

go here and change bc to .5, velocity to 2700, elevation to 4000', zero to 225 yrds, temp to 30, bullet weight to 180, range interval 50 yrds, max range 800 yrds and have a look....you get 60 clicks per rotation of knob....so you'll see you'll get to between 650 and 700 with 60 clicks and 225 yrd zero.

[JET1]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yes, you are missing something here....

Come on Chuck....obtuse is not a colour you wear well.

I have the leopold scope and i sent them my data and they sent me a scope. So at 14.5 X my marks are on for 2 3 4 5 hundred yards and the post is 600 yards and if i use any mag other than 14.5x then its still on at 200 yards and you shoot like you would any other scope and if im shooting more than 200 yards im always gonna have the mag turned all the way up anyways. Less than 200 yards with the mag set lower im gonna aim at what im hunting because there isnt much difference in POI from 0 to 200 yards

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by JET1

I have the leopold scope and i sent them my data and they sent me a scope. So at 14.5 X my marks are on for 2 3 4 5 hundred yards and the post is 600 yards and if i use any mag other than 14.5x then its still on at 200 yards and you shoot like you would any other scope and if im shooting more than 200 yards im always gonna have the mag turned all the way up anyways. Less than 200 yards with the mag set lower im gonna aim at what im hunting because there isnt much difference in POI from 0 to 200 yards

Well will you look at that. Maybe it isn't me that's dull after all.

[Stinky Coyote]

Duk, just in case any of what i'm saying interests you...if you'd be game to pick up a few boxes of different ballistically looking good premium ammos (read pointy tips with boattails) i'd love to take you to my range with your sako at 100 for paper work to see just how good that thing might shoot and pick one to set the scope up for. Just like i did with my sako. Then we can go from there if we find one that just makes sense for a 600+yrd set up?

I love the set up part of it, its super fun for me and thats why i'm offering....and my experience with tikka/sako so far says we'll find the accuracy needed for setting you up to the cartridges potential.......using it afterwords for real is as someone put it to me....and i agree....somewhat anti-climatic.....kind of a walk in the park

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by JET1

I have the leopold scope and i sent them my data and they sent me a scope. So at 14.5 X my marks are on for 2 3 4 5 hundred yards and the post is 600 yards and if i use any mag other than 14.5x then its still on at 200 yards and you shoot like you would any other scope and if im shooting more than 200 yards im always gonna have the mag turned all the way up anyways. Less than 200 yards with the mag set lower im gonna aim at what im hunting because there isnt much difference in POI from 0 to 200 yards

what data did you send? what was your elevation when you collected drop data and do you hunt the mountains at all? Did you correct for the middle of your elevation range (and temp) that you usually hunt....or did you just send in the info collected from range day without elevation/temp/barometer etc.? Not trying to stir pot...i'm really interested to know what data you sent in?....i shoot about 3500' close to home for set up, but mountain hunting i find myself above 6000' alot so far.......your 600 yard post set at 3500' could easily be a complete miss at 7500' on a sheep...just thinking outloud so just curious how you go about that with leupold and what they might ask of you for data?

i did just get home from hockey game that finally was something to celebrate somewhat....especially with colorado losing, so might be seeing double a bit right now...hopefully my questions make sense....friday night against colorado...biggest game of year for flames....cross those finners

[JET1]

i went out to a farm field with targets on an 8 foot stand and shot at the top target 20 rounds at 100 yards moved it out to 200 shot 20 more moved it to 300 shot 20 more moved out to 400 shot 20 more and 5 and 6 hundred and made an average of each group and measured down from the top bullseye to each group and sent them when my drop is at each distance. you can argue that its only good for the elevation that i did my practice at and its only good for the load that i used that day (which is why i used factory ammo)

but its exactly the way i want it and i have no complaints i dont turn any dials ect.. when im hunting coyote

[Stinky Coyote]

nothing wrong with that at all, more than most do for set up with that style of reticle so i say good for you, it will serve you well, depending what cartridge you shoot its probably only the 600 yrd one that would give you any grief if elevation/temp gets way different than the day you set up, to 500 seems like less matters, after 500 it gets more finicky