Caliber size

[elkhunter11]

Totally depends on bullet construction in both cases although with well constructed bullets, penetration is high in either case.

+1

Bullet construction is far more of a factor than most people realize.A smaller lighter bullet can actually penetrate deeper,and hold together better at higher velocity.

[Dick284]

Light bullets at high velocity, create a terrific temporary wound channel, while a larger more moderatly moving projectiles will leave a larger perminant wound channel.

The often struck by lightening reaction by game comes from the disruption of nervous system signals or breaking of the major "drive line" components.

Either can occur from both projectiles. The small ones need only be in the vacinity, to effect these part, while the moderate biggies, need to be a whole lot closer.

Damaged tissue and bone is just that, how it gets damaged is pretty irrelevent if the outcome is very similar.

I remember one WT buck I shot at 80 yds with a 100gr. TSX out of my 25'06, impact velocity was over 3200fps, and I slipped the bullet between 2 ribs, the 2 adjacent ribs were shattered, and roughly 1/2 the thickness of the ribs was shered off through their thickness, the next 2 ribs were broken, and the 3rd rib towards the rear of the animal was cracked. the exit showed a centerd rib, smasshed up for a length of 2 to 3 inches, and 2 adjacent ribs broken in more than one place.

[rem12nut]

I shoot a Remington 700 .270 which has taken basically anything down quickly for me, shooting Nolser Partitions in 150 gr.

Altaberg is totally correct - PLACEMENT - PLACEMENT - PLACEMENT

They key here is what are you most comfortable shooting. When you go to the range, are you steady, accurate and comfortable shooting what you have? If so then that is the caliber for you, if not then make a change.

I have a number of larger and smaller calibers and I always go back to the .270!

Having started hunting with Archery, I learned what placement and patience is all about. Then I went to Traditional Black Powder and then Smokeless. I believe it has made me a much better hunter and shot because of it. (BONUS -Well guess what I even get 3 seasons now.)

PLACEMENT - PLACEMENT - PLACEMENT

REM

[jaybull]

Yup a 270 to the vitals kills quicker than a 338 to the guts anyday. If you can put the bigger bullet in the shoulder, it would penitrate to vitals and anchor the animal very quick but ruin more meat. With the advanced bullets today you don't need a big .30 for most animals at normal hunting ranges 200,300 yards. Some just like a more forgiving cal / bullet combo for farther ranges. Its all what you want out of your gun. JMO.

[209x50]

I remember one WT buck I shot at 80 yds with a 100gr. TSX out of my 25'06, impact velocity was over 3200fps, and I slipped the bullet between 2 ribs, the 2 adjacent ribs were shattered, and roughly 1/2 the thickness of the ribs was shered off through their thickness, the next 2 ribs were broken, and the 3rd rib towards the rear of the animal was cracked. the exit showed a centerd rib, smasshed up for a length of 2 to 3 inches, and 2 adjacent ribs broken in more than one place.

I've shot a heckuva a lot of game at impactvelocities higher than that and with larger bullets to boot I have never seen anything like what you are describing. I've NEVER seen damage to the rib adjacent to the penetration as a matter of fact. Every bone that I've seen damagaed was struck by a bullet not simple close to it What are you proposing broke the 6 (six) ribs that nothing touched?

[Jetski]

Originally Posted by Traps

So what I am getting here is speed counts in shocking power if the bullet expands rapidly and on the other end of the spectrum if it was a high speed solid then it would be the same diameter thru and very little energy drop. So with high velocities bullet construction becomes paramount.

A slow moving larger diameter bullet would have more shocking power over a wider range of bullet constructions. I'll use an example - a tough .458 bullet is would only have to expand 25% to providing the same frontal area or shock area of an already twice expanded .284 bullet.

To do a bang flop or energy dump comparison between high speed smaller diameter and low speed larger diameter this is what I gather from you guys:

With the high velocity smaller diameter: bullet construction is vital, meat damage is more likely, and energy dump is high, penetration is typically not as deep.

With the low velocity larger diameter: bullet construction is not as critical, meat damage is less likely, and energy dump is high, penetration is typically deeper.

I know I am not taking into account a lot of other things but are there any thoughts on this?

Missed large and fast, 375 H&H in the shoulder/spine is a drop shot.

.

[Traps]

And the big bad slap it gives you doing it. I love the notion of the 375 H&H but it would give me a flinch that would be in overdrive.

[Cal]

I've been told by a few guys that they think that a 270 or 7mm rem with light bullets will get more instant kills on deer than a 30-06 or .308. I definatly think I get more dramatic results with a 130 grain bullet than a 150 so I would have to say that the speed must count for somthing. As well when you move up in calibers the bullet jacket gets thicker in the yukon I talked to a guy who had gone from a .308 to a 350 rem and found that his carribo went alot further despite all the off season **** talking he had done about his new gun.

Originally Posted by Traps

I have a poll I want to take. Do larger caliber guns kill faster than smaller ones?

In the recent past I have been caught up in the bigger is better but after some deliberation have found that my preference when taking an animal is to wait for an ethical shot. If I wait for that ethical shot then why go bigger? I want it to go through the ribs and to be honest almost any legal caliber is enough to go through the ribs with the right bullet. Also there is much less recoil.

For guys who have killed more than 20 animals and used small and larger calibers what has been your experience?

I think this is a silly question. It's been overdiscussed on may forums, google it and find out. Bullet choice, impact velocity to match, and primarily shot placement determine terminal damage, thus how quickly the job gets done.

To examplify what I'm saying: I've downed a WT doe with a .375H&H with a reduced load Speer HotCore and got instant drop and nearly no meat damage. Whereas on the other hand, I've downed a similar animal with a .243 and wasted a whole lot of meat. Most would not hunt little critters with a .375H&H, but this goes to prove the point, it's not ALL about caliber. Velocity, bullet choice and shot placement come first in my mind.

[Jetski]

Originally Posted by Traps

And the big bad slap it gives you doing it. I love the notion of the 375 H&H but it would give me a flinch that would be in overdrive.

I had a 375 H&H for several years and used it on a couple of moose. I was looking to drop them quickly rather than giving them a chance to get further into bush or muskeg. The shoulder shot worked to pile them up both times, but it wasn`t a shot placement that I`d have taken with a 30-30 for example. Sometimes in the bush all you get to see is shoulder though so it`s reassuring to know that the bullet is going to do it`s work.

The recoil of the 375 H&H isn`t bad, more of a push than the sharp jab of some of the other rimmed magnums. I never bench rested it though and used standing shots or leaned against the truck to zero in.

I didn`t like the wood on the Winchester M70 so traded the rifle off, but not because of the caliber. I`d buy another 375 H&H probably in a Ruger single shot.

.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I think this is a silly question. It's been overdiscussed on may forums, google it and find out. Bullet choice, impact velocity to match, and primarily shot placement determine terminal damage, thus how quickly the job gets done.

To examplify what I'm saying: I've downed a WT doe with a .375H&H with a reduced load Speer HotCore and got instant drop and nearly no meat damage. Whereas on the other hand, I've downed a similar animal with a .243 and wasted a whole lot of meat. Most would not hunt little critters with a .375H&H, but this goes to prove the point, it's not ALL about caliber. Velocity, bullet choice and shot placement come first in my mind.

I think your missing the point by what you describe in your last paragraph. That is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. Thanks for posting in a silly thread.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Jetski

I had a 375 H&H for several years and used it on a couple of moose. I was looking to drop them quickly rather than giving them a chance to get further into bush or muskeg. The shoulder shot worked to pile them up both times, but it wasn`t a shot placement that I`d have taken with a 30-30 for example. Sometimes in the bush all you get to see is shoulder though so it`s reassuring to know that the bullet is going to do it`s work.

The recoil of the 375 H&H isn`t bad, more of a push than the sharp jab of some of the other rimmed magnums. I never bench rested it though and used standing shots or leaned against the truck to zero in.

I didn`t like the wood on the Winchester M70 so traded the rifle off, but not because of the caliber. I`d buy another 375 H&H probably in a Ruger single shot.
.

What bullets were you using? How far did the bullet go in? What kind of meat damage did it do?

[Cal]

I've broken both shoulders on a moose using a 270 and cheap coreloct 150s. Not that I'd want to try it on purpose, the shoulder varys in thickness depending where you hit it and that shot could have easily gone bad. The entrance wound was quite large and it is my belief I hit a stick and the bullet had already started to mushroom or tumble before it got to the moose. Also ran a large buck through end to end with the previously mentioned load, another shot I dont realy want to take again.

As far as moose go IMO your not going to shock them to death with most of the rounds that people use for them so untill you get into the realy big stuff its %100 bullet placement no mater what caliber rifle your shooting. "Magnum comfort" is merely a security blanket for those who take comfort in a sore shoulder.

[elkhunter11]

"Magnum comfort" is merely a security blanket for those who take comfort in a sore shoulder.

Magnum does not always mean heavy recoil.Some guns produce less felt recoil in magnum chamberings,than other guns in non magnum chamberings.
In fact,I found the 700bdl in 7mmremmag easier on the shoulder than the 700bdl in 30-06.The 7mmremmag rifle is slightly heavier and comes with a recoil pad while the 30-06 rifle comes with a hard butt plate,but they are listed as the exact same model of rifle..

[Cal]

Yeah but it kind of has a nice ring to it though.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by Cal

I've broken both shoulders on a moose using a 270 and cheap coreloct 150s. Not that I'd want to try it on purpose, the shoulder varys in thickness depending where you hit it and that shot could have easily gone bad. The entrance wound was quite large and it is my belief I hit a stick and the bullet had already started to mushroom or tumble before it got to the moose. Also ran a large buck through end to end with the previously mentioned load, another shot I dont realy want to take again.

As far as moose go IMO your not going to shock them to death with most of the rounds that people use for them so untill you get into the realy big stuff its %100 bullet placement no mater what caliber rifle your shooting. "Magnum comfort" is merely a security blanket for those who take comfort in a sore shoulder.

and scope cuts.

[elkhunter11]

and scope cuts.

Myself and my hunting partners must be doing things very different than you,since we all use magnums,and none of us have ever had a scope cut.It guess that it helps when you use good scopes,mount them properly,and use decent shooting form.

[Cal]

I've shot some friend's magnums and never got a scope cut. I had a buddy who had a 300 wm that was pretty nice to shoot but the gun with its large scope an bipod weighed almost 10 lbs and was not verey practical IMO. He would always give me a ribbing about my puny 270 and I'd always bug him about how he never wanted to get out of his truck or walk very far which was understandably true. When I asked him if he had ever made a shot that he could not have made with a more reasonable gun in 9 years of lugging that thing around all he could come up with is that he had once shot a blackbear that was "pretty far away". This is kind of how I feel about magnums, yes they can be made to shoot alright but I've never had to pass up a shot that I would have taken had I been carrying a magnum so to me its just not worth the added price of amo, weight of the gun, and shoulder abuse that comes allong with them.

[roadkill]

This might work if you don't trust your bullet-placement prowess enough...

http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm