2013 sheep draws - Page 2

209x50 · #31 06-13-2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

You Dale know 'm getting real tired of your smarmy cheap shots. Don't bother calling the next time you need information.

Just to be clear, the 438 sheep draw is a pure lottery, simply luck of the draw. The only time I've ben lucky in any lottery.

The fact of the matter is nothing can be everything to everybody. I'm sorry, but I do not accept punishing people who have done their due diligence from the beginning in favor of someone not born yet.

My apologies to the Dale's of the world. Wrong name

top predator · #32 06-13-2013, 09:49 AM

I've known or have know three Dales. They are as stated....lol

drake · #33 06-13-2013, 10:42 AM

with the poor definition of "Alberta Resident" is it any wonder our draw waits have increased at the rate they have?...There is a correlation between boom cylcles and draw wait times......transient workers who moved to Alberta to make a quick buck and take advantage of our hunting opportunites for a couple years are the cause of this nonsense. Just look at the rates at which people are still applying for these unatainable draws...I would bet dollars to donuts most are "new albertans" with no understanding of our draw system

Lefty-Canuck · #34 06-13-2013, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

with the poor definition of "Alberta Resident" is it any wonder our draw waits have increased at the rate they have?...There is a correlation between boom cylcles and draw wait times......transient workers who moved to Alberta to make a quick buck and take advantage of our hunting opportunites for a couple years are the cause of this nonsense. Just look at the rates at which people are still applying for these unatainable draws...I would bet dollars to donuts most are "new albertans" with no understanding of our draw system

X2.....

Definition of resident needs to be revised and changed!

LC

drake · #35 06-13-2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

X2.....

Definition of resident needs to be revised and changed!

LC

This is the root cause of most of our draw problems...not outfitters...not hunter host.....not animal populations. Look at the NWT for a proper definition of "resident". You're not getting a musk ox tag as some "fresh of the jet east coaster/albertan". But in alberta a person can pull a 438 lotto tag before they are done their first 2 week hitch. Absolutly ridiculous IMO

Lefty-Canuck · #36 06-13-2013, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

This is the root cause of most of our draw problems...not outfitters...not hunter host.....not animal populations. Look at the NWT for a proper definition of "resident". You're not getting a musk ox tag as some "fresh of the jet east coaster/albertan". But in alberta a person can pull a 438 lotto tag before they are done their first 2 week hitch. Absolutly ridiculous IMO

I agree....permanent residence of a minimum 1 years where you need to physically be in the province for a min amount of time is reasonable....only a mailing address is not reasonable.

Also a lot of guys put kids and wives in the draw who don't even hunt....didn't a guy who got a mountain goat draw try to pull that?

LC

drake · #37 06-13-2013, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I agree....permanent residence of a minimum 1 years where you need to physically be in the province for a min amount of time is reasonable....only a mailing address is not reasonable.

Also a lot of guys put kids and wives in the draw who don't even hunt....didn't a guy who got a mountain goat draw try to pull that?

LC

Ide rather see a two year commitment to this province before you're able to apply for a tag/buy a licence. Our kids have to wait until they are 12 for gosh sakes.

Lefty-Canuck · #38 06-13-2013, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

Ide rather see a two year commitment to this province before you're able to apply for a tag/buy a licence. Our kids have to wait until they are 12 for gosh sakes.

I am on board with that....regardless of the conditions, things need to change here.....the "fly by night" folks try to cherry pick all the good things from the multiple provinces the work/live in.....

LC

walking buffalo · #39 06-13-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

My apologies to the Dale's of the world. Wrong name

Had me confused too. Figured I have been calling Buckbrush the wrong name for a couple of years without him correcting me.

So, no bones for the kids....

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

with the poor definition of "Alberta Resident" is it any wonder our draw waits have increased at the rate they have?...There is a correlation between boom cylcles and draw wait times......transient workers who moved to Alberta to make a quick buck and take advantage of our hunting opportunites for a couple years are the cause of this nonsense. Just look at the rates at which people are still applying for these unatainable draws...I would bet dollars to donuts most are "new albertans" with no understanding of our draw system

I agree we need to have the Residency requirements revised, but implicating new Albertans as the problem in nonsense. You may as well hold the same conviction for anyone applying for this sheep draw with a priority 10 or less....

The problem is that a system that worked in the past does not neccessarily work today. Many more special licences are becoming statistically impossible to draw. The Draw priority system needs to be updated to accomodate the realities we now face.

drake · #40 06-13-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Had me confused too. Figured I have been calling Buckbrush the wrong name for a couple of years without him correcting me.

So, no bones for the kids....

I agree we need to have the Residency requirements revised, but implicating new Albertans as the problem in nonsense. You may as well hold the same conviction for anyone applying for this sheep draw with a priority 10 or less.... The problem is that a system that worked in the past does not neccessarily work today. Many more special licences are becoming statistically impossible to draw. The Draw priority system needs to be updated to accomodate the realities we now face.

I do....if you are blind enough to not understand the realities of your draw future (after 10 years no less) you have more to worry about than hunting.

walking buffalo · #41 06-13-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

I do....if you are blind enough to not understand the realities of your draw future (after 10 years no less) you have more to worry about than hunting.

Let's hold ESRD to the same standard.

The government should be held accountable for accepting monies from people when the applicant can never be successful. There are laws preventing this type of scheme in the private sector.

ESRD needs to elimate accepting applications that cannot be successful under this system or change the system.

drake · #42 06-13-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Let's hold ESRD to the same standard.

The government should be held accountable for accepting monies from people when the applicant can never be successful. There are laws preventing this type of scheme in the private sector.

ESRD needs to elimate accepting an applications that cannot be successful under this system or change the system.

great point.

sheepguide · #43 06-13-2013, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Let's hold ESRD to the same standard.

The government should be held accountable for accepting monies from people when the applicant can never be successful. There are laws preventing this type of scheme in the private sector.

ESRD needs to elimate accepting an applications that cannot be successful under this system or change the system.

Accountable for what? All they have to say is everyone has a chance. If enough people drop out anyone has a chance. So why would they not accept applications? They sure aren't ever going to go for that.

Change is the only way with lotteries and with highercosts. Higher tag costs and draw costs that is the only way you ever going to lower applicant numbers as that is the only way it will ever improve an actual priority draw.

209x50 · #44 06-13-2013, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

with the poor definition of "Alberta Resident" is it any wonder our draw waits have increased at the rate they have?...There is a correlation between boom cylcles and draw wait times......transient workers who moved to Alberta to make a quick buck and take advantage of our hunting opportunites for a couple years are the cause of this nonsense. Just look at the rates at which people are still applying for these unatainable draws...I would bet dollars to donuts most are "new albertans" with no understanding of our draw system

This was discussed at the table for a long time to no resolve. You can move to Alberta one day and hunt the next. There doesn't seem to be any government will to change this. In addition to newcomers people retiring to other parts of Canada feel they have the right to come back and hunt each fall as a resident.
The big increase comes from Alberta hunters going from 1.2 to 2.7 draws entered per hunter.

209x50 · #45 06-13-2013, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

So, no bones for the kids....

.

Sorry, no. Life ain't fair but I don't see haw discriminating against one group in favor of another makes it any fairer. Some things in life you miss out on but all those kids can still buy a sheep tag and go hunting every year.

albertadave · #46 06-13-2013, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

Sorry, no. Life ain't fair but I don't see haw discriminating against one group in favor of another makes it any fairer. Some things in life you miss out on but all those kids can still buy a sheep tag and go hunting every year.

......at least for now, anyways. That argument may only hold for the next couple years. More, if we're lucky.

209x50 · #47 06-13-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albertadave

......at least for now, anyways. That argument may only hold for the next couple years. More, if we're lucky.

This year and next for sure Dave. We are fighting hard to keep it that way.

sheepguide · #48 06-13-2013, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

This year and next for sure Dave. We are fighting hard to keep it that way.

When you don't even know if populations are good, what carrying capacities are or if continued open seasons are what's best but hey let's push to keep it open and unchanged! Blows my mind!!

Grizzly Adams · #49 06-13-2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drake

This is the root cause of most of our draw problems...not outfitters...not hunter host.....not animal populations. Look at the NWT for a proper definition of "resident". You're not getting a musk ox tag as some "fresh of the jet east coaster/albertan". But in alberta a person can pull a 438 lotto tag before they are done their first 2 week hitch. Absolutly ridiculous IMO

Gotta disagree here.

Has nothing to do with resident or not resident. Real problem is one of supply and demand, only so many opportunities available and an ever increasing number of hunters wanting to take advantage. Bad news is it's only going to get worse.

Grizz

hal53 · #50 06-13-2013, 05:59 PM

Can't believe you guys can't figure it out, ESRD has no money to conduct population studies, they have no clue what the sheep herd is doing in any given area.... So...nxt best thing is to make people wait so long to get a tag that they are too old to go after them....Win/Win for them!

Lefty-Canuck · #51 06-13-2013, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

The big increase comes from Alberta hunters going from 1.2 to 2.7 draws entered per hunter.

There is a reason for this.... when certain things that were once general go on draw....and some people had no priority.

So the tendency is for people to put in and build priority in everything they can....one never knows when a general season will hit draw.

The other is like you said and other have too....people come and go in this province and still want to maintain certain benefits.

LC

209x50 · #52 06-13-2013, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

Can't believe you guys can't figure it out, ESRD has no money to conduct population studies, they have no clue what the sheep herd is doing in any given area.... So...nxt best thing is to make people wait so long to get a tag that they are too old to go after them....Win/Win for them!

Actually they do have very good numbers on the sheep population Hal.

walking buffalo · #53 06-13-2013, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Accountable for what? All they have to say is everyone has a chance. If enough people drop out anyone has a chance. So why would they not accept applications? They sure aren't ever going to go for that.

Change is the only way with lotteries and with highercosts. Higher tag costs and draw costs that is the only way you ever going to lower applicant numbers as that is the only way it will ever improve an actual priority draw.

I'm just running on a hunch, like when you "just know" that there are sheep in the next bowl....

I wouldn't be surprised if a Judge would not be satisfied with reasoning that the government was taking money based on the likelyhood that a person either lives for 400 years or enough people with higher priority drop out of this draw. The reasoning needs to be reasonable.

The Federal Competition Act states....
"52. (1) No person shall, for the purpose of promoting, directly or indirectly, the supply or use of a product or ... any business interest, by any means whatever, knowingly or recklessly make a representation to the public that is false or misleading in a material respect."

Even if the government were to suggest and the Judge accepted in a material respect that a person entering the draw this year could eventually be successful within today's average life expectancy based on attrition (due to other appicants death or brains

), ESRD has not published that this draw is statistically available to all applicants based on this reasoning, thus this would not neccessarily apply to those who have already spent money on these applications. Get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

Sorry, no. Life ain't fair but I don't see haw discriminating against one group in favor of another makes it any fairer. Some things in life you miss out on but all those kids can still buy a sheep tag and go hunting every year.

Asking Adults to share with our children is discrimination?

Funny in thought, sad in practice....

fast_pass88 · #54 06-14-2013, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Change is the only way with lotteries and with highercosts. Higher tag costs and draw costs that is the only way you ever going to lower applicant numbers as that is the only way it will ever improve an actual priority draw.

No. I agree with alot of things your saying, but can't ignore this. Every aspect of my life is affected by "the rich guy"...racing, work, you name it, the rich guy wins. I'm a young newly married man and money is tight getting our feet under us. That's why I love hunting, it's just an equalizer. No amount of money will get you a monster sheep (except for a guide, by that's a diff level) my dedication, fitness, and determination comes from the heart and it cannot be bought. I believe that gives me a very good edge over someone with a thick wallet. If draws are increased in cost, I cannot afford it. Period. Sheep gear is expensive enough, Nevermind buying a big $$$ tag. An increase in cost would eliminate me and thus give the edge to the rich guy. To me that is not hunting. Hunting is the great equalizer, does not seperate the rich from the poor, but rather acknowledges the dedicated and determined from the wealthy and lazy.

Sorry for the slight derail.

sheepguide · #55 06-14-2013, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fast_pass88

No. I agree with alot of things your saying, but can't ignore this. Every aspect of my life is affected by "the rich guy"...racing, work, you name it, the rich guy wins. I'm a young newly married man and money is tight getting our feet under us. That's why I love hunting, it's just an equalizer. No amount of money will get you a monster sheep (except for a guide, by that's a diff level) my dedication, fitness, and determination comes from the heart and it cannot be bought. I believe that gives me a very good edge over someone with a thick wallet. If draws are increased in cost, I cannot afford it. Period. Sheep gear is expensive enough, Nevermind buying a big $$$ tag. An increase in cost would eliminate me and thus give the edge to the rich guy. To me that is not hunting. Hunting is the great equalizer, does not seperate the rich from the poor, but rather acknowledges the dedicated and determined from the wealthy and lazy.

Sorry for the slight derail.

I'm not talking general tags I'm talking draw tags. Tags that are next to impossible to get anyways. I'd rather pay a few extra dollars and have a chance than leave it and never have a chance.
I hear lots of guys say what you do about the gear and such costing so much but yet no one would put an extra $100 or so to get a tag! I'd gladly save up a few bucks all year to hunt bighorns!!

pikeslayer22 · #56 06-14-2013, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I'm not talking general tags I'm talking draw tags. Tags that are next to impossible to get anyways. I'd rather pay a few extra dollars and have a chance than leave it and never have a chance.
I hear lots of guys say what you do about the gear and such costing so much but yet no one would put an extra $100 or so to get a tag! I'd gladly save up a few bucks all year to hunt bighorns!!

Do you mean on the draw application or on the event that you get drawn? This has been debated many times and i am with you sheepguide there needs to be extra fees on the coveted zones like 438. I was drawn in there last year for the first week of November and i had the place to myself not another human on any of the hills! So there was 4 tags wasted that many hunters would die for!! Once your drawn it should be a mandatory 500$ at a minimum regardless if you purchase the tag or not!! I have never check but i would hope that these tags are not availble to the Non-Residents for draws

jdog0 · #57 06-14-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Yep to bad for all the young people that weren't able to draw then. Had nothing to do with having brains. Why shouldn't all new young hunters have a chance? It's a joke!!!
And coming from a guy that has had two 438 late season draw tags! I'm betting if you hadn't had them tags you would think different!! I'm sure you will say it has nothing to do with it but it affect thoughts when you have been able to hold two coveted tags already.
Funny thing is just like I mentioned in many other Bighorn draw or lottery areas such as Oregon or Montana the rams you shot wouldn't even be thought as shooter rams but here in Alberta people will put in a lifetime to shoot 170" class rams. Don't get me wrong the rams you harvested were older rams if I remember right but sure weren't the class of ram many places are producing.

Our sheep hunting and sheep draws are the biggest joke out there. Used to be guys came here to hunt because it was the spot to kill bighorns and big bighorns. Our reputation has sure decreased from that!!!

Hey sheep guide...

Quick question: im one of those who is only p4, what would be my best bet for an eqrly season sheep? I've been thinking of 434 and 426...am i too off???

Thx man!

sheepguide · #58 06-14-2013, 03:51 PM

I feel that applications should be higher as well as I feel you should have to pay tag fees at application time and these tags should be more than $50. Even $200-$500. These tag costs could be refunded to unsuccessful applicants.
This would Cut out most of the applicants that only apply because it's cheap to and then may or may not hunt the tag if they get it. And would stop them from putting all their non sheep hunting family and friends in on the draw.

ishootbambi · #59 06-14-2013, 04:08 PM

biggest problem with sheep draws is all the daughters, wives, girlfriends and dogs entering the draws. and no im not kidding. the 3 dollar application fee has too many people saying "ah what the heck, ill throw everyone in". at 20-25 bucks, you could accomplish a couple things. first when johnny hayseed sees that the cost of applying everyone he knows goes up to 100 bucks plus, he wont be so quick to apply his dog, or the neighbours nephew....and second, the extra couple bones generated could go directly to habitat restoration benefitting all wildlife.

if that had been done before, then the tailpipe who shot a mountain goat on his wifes tag in the wilmore and got it out of there at 2:00am likely wouldnt have even applied for it, and the tag could have gone to someone who would have legally drawn that tag and hunted it themselves. the 3 bucks is bullsnot, and encourages some to apply that when drawn dont even bother to hunt.....and others to ask silly questions like "what is this mine i keep hearing about".

sheepguide · #60 06-14-2013, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdog0

Hey sheep guide...

Quick question: im one of those who is only p4, what would be my best bet for an eqrly season sheep? I've been thinking of 434 and 426...am i too off???

Thx man!

434 and 426 are both decent zones for early season rams. 434 is easier hunting than 426 but it also gets a few more hunters. When I guided in 434 for bighorns I saw a lot of rams. Them numbers are down now from what guys I've talked to the last 10 years but there are still rams coming out each season.
426 is a zone far easily hunted with some previous knowledge from other guys that have hunted it. You can hunt a lot of the country and waste a bunch of time in this zone if you don't know it. My step Dad guided a lot of rams in this zone but again numbers aren't quite the same but are also a few rams killed in this zone each year.
Both zones are about the same and would be decent to hunt early seasons.