Lakes drying up

[3freewheels]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

Typical frac on a Duvernay well in Central Alberta uses 75,000 m3 of fresh water. Hundreds of these wells will be drilled over the next few years. That's a lot of fresh water being sucked out of our rivers, lakes and sloughs.

You are forgetting to mention (or possibly didn't know) that the water is recovered during flowback of the well. This amount can vary typically between 40 and 90% of what was originally pumped down the well. This water is stored and reused in the next well. Recycling at it's finest.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

I bought in 2006 at Calling Lake. Paid $92,500 for 1.5 acres lake front deeded to the water.

You sure you own right to the water? I think a lot of lakefront lot folks "think" they do but probably don't. Pretty sure in Alberta the crown owns all lake beds and shores.

I still laugh over a situation that occurred years back in Sask when my father and I stopped for lunch on a nice beach while canoeing. Owner of the property above told us to get off his beach. Father said it's not your beach. Landowner said who do you think you are? Father replied, deputy minister of Sask. Dept. of Natural Resources. Flummoxed landowner walked back up hill muttering.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

Typical frac on a Duvernay well in Central Alberta uses 75,000 m3 of fresh water. Hundreds of these wells will be drilled over the next few years. That's a lot of fresh water being sucked out of our rivers, lakes and sloughs.

do they not or can they not use the salt water they dispose of out of the wells in the first place?

[Ken07AOVette]

Muriel lake- that's very interesting, I used to wind surf there a few decades ago. Then it dried up, the loss was amazing, have not been there in years. Nice to hear it is filling again.
I used to love ernestina as well, went ice fishing there years ago and couldn't find 3' of water anywhere.

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

if anyone hunted Beaverhill Lake in the 1980's, you will remember that there was a ...... lake back then.

Go there now and see all the grassland.

Back in the early 1900's, I am told by the old timers, that Beaverhill Lake was dry then as well. NOT GLOBAL WARMING!!!.

However, there are lakes that did lose 8 - 15 FOW in the East Central part of Alberta. Skeleton, Mann, Missawawi, etc.

Water Table is key to a lake filling up. Water seeps in, and recharges the water table. Until the water table is restored, lake levels do not recover.

2007 there was 18" of rain in the summer around St. Paul. Lakes in the area came up 2"???? all the run off should have had those lakes at 5' at least!

Water Wells did recover in the area over time though!!

As for wanting cheap lake front in Alberta, on a good lake that does not suffer evaporation, good luck.

I bought in 2006 at Calling Lake. Paid $92,500 for 1.5 acres lake front deeded to the water.

1/2 acre lake lots around me now go for $250,000.00 with environmental set back of 100 ' on those titles, being water front lots.

Now for fun, go to Sylvan Lake. In the mid 2000's, you paid $10,000 a foot for a lake front lot (50 ' lake front = $500,000!!!!)

Forensic tale: Go to a good lake, pay what you have to. Smile and shut up. Best investment you ever made.

Most lake lots pass in the family, and rarely go on the open market. When they do, there is such demand, even these days, that you will get your money back, and then some.

That is what you are really complaining about, affordable lake lot on a dried up lake.

Drewski

I’d have to pull out the book to quote exact dates but I believe it was in the 1880s that Beaverhill dried up entirely. Then refilled and rose throughout the earlier 1900s. Dad saw it recede badly again in the mid 1900s and recover to silly levels. Don’t recall what year it was bone dry again but after 1998 for sure as I remember hunting Canvasbacks on the NE end that year.

[260 Rem]

Hastings Lake, about 40KMS SE of Edm. Highest water level was in 1998, has since lost 10 vertical feet of water. So 20 yrs drought in the area. We have not even seen run-off for about 10 years.
Regarding property ownership to the water: The original Alberta surveys around lakes read “all land not covered by the waters of”. There are still some of those titles in existence. The subsequent subdivision of lake front properties were approved only when a specified setback from the “high water mark” was set aside as Environmental Reserve.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Hastings Lake, about 40KMS SE of Edm. Highest water level was in 1998, has since lost 10 vertical feet of water. So 20 yrs drought in the area. We have not even seen run-off for about 10 years.
Regarding property ownership to the water: The original Alberta surveys around lakes read “all land not covered by the waters of”. There are still some of those titles in existence. The subsequent subdivision of lake front properties were approved only when a specified setback from the “high water mark” was set aside as Environmental Reserve.

I know a fella on Lac Lanonne who claims that the owns right up to the water and even underneath it. Apparently the deed was written before they put in a weir and after putting it in the water rose to cover the land that he owned. I don’t know how true it is but that’s what he says.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I know a fella on Lac Lanonne who claims that the owns right up to the water and even underneath it. Apparently the deed was written before they put in a weir and after putting it in the water rose to cover the land that he owned. I don’t know how true it is but that’s what he says.

Possible.... When the lot was subdivided, the stakes would have been placed at the required set-back from the high water mark...and if a man made event resulted in the water covering the stakes...he still owns the land within the surveyed boundary.

[Don Andersen]

Typically conventional crude is one bbl. of water in equals on bbl. of oil out.
Non-convention crude is four bbls. of water equals one bbl. of oil.
This equation doesn't include frac water

Don't let the oil company shills BS ya',

Don

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Typically conventional crude is one bbl. of water in equals on bbl. of oil out.
Non-convention crude is four bbls. of water equals one bbl. of oil.
This equation doesn't include frac water

Don't let the oil company shills BS ya',

Don

So by this theory....you mean the oil companies have entire fleets of trucks hauling water to production wells and pumping it down hole to get the oil out of the ground WOW wish I owned the trucking outfit that got that deal.....TALK about a SHILL.......

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by tbiddy

Provost charges around $10/m3. Coronation is about $7/m3.

Prices have gone up but then I have been out of the business for a few years.

I know a few farmers in Sask who paid for several Million dollar combines with the money the got from them demon frac companies.

[darren32]

Originally Posted by tbiddy

Provost charges around $10/m3. Coronation is about $7/m3.

That's crazy. Spruce Grove, Stoney and WILD (Kapasiwin) are $4/m3

[tbiddy]

Originally Posted by darren32

That's crazy. Spruce Grove, Stoney and WILD (Kapasiwin) are $4/m3

Add trucking to those costs and it can get pricey. A landowner is around $4/m3 so they are usually the first to be contacted. A frac in this area is about 1000-2000m3 and about 500m3 to drill the well.

[Drewski Canuck]

If you look at some very old titles, you will sometimes see a "subdivision" description of X feet North from the south boundary line of XX Quarter, Section XX, Township ..., Range ...., W X Meridian, then westerly from the east boundary of XX Quarter, etc.

Old cabin lots on a number of lakes where deeded in this fashion, called a "meets and bounds description", resulting in the boundaries on the water being preserved for the 1/4, and the subsequent lake lot. This was permitted and no Subdivision to plan / block / lot was done.

What is interesting if there is a "high water mark" boundary is the concept of "Accretion", which gives and takes from boundary lines being a lake. Accretion creates an entitlement to the land that is exposed when a water body recedes, and can be applied to be added to a title under S. 89 of the Land Titles Act, to the extent of the Alberta Township system only. In other words, the water dries up and you can get to the boundary of the Quarter you are on only. So if it is the NE 1/4, you cannot gain land on the SE 1/4. The limit is the boundary between the two.

If you ever come across such a meets and bounds description on a lake lot, even if the limit is the high water mark of Lake X, jump on it fast.

Most modern Lake lot subdivisions (1ate 1970's forward) have considerable environmental reserve setbacks, and the lake shore is public in those cases.

Development of the lake shore is not permitted, not even cutting down trees for a view.

Drewski

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

If you look at some very old titles, you will sometimes see a "subdivision" description of X feet North from the south boundary line of XX Quarter, Section XX, Township ..., Range ...., W X Meridian, then westerly from the east boundary of XX Quarter, etc.

Old cabin lots on a number of lakes where deeded in this fashion, called a "meets and bounds description", resulting in the boundaries on the water being preserved for the 1/4, and the subsequent lake lot. This was permitted and no Subdivision to plan / block / lot was done.

What is interesting if there is a "high water mark" boundary is the concept of "Accretion", which gives and takes from boundary lines being a lake. Accretion creates an entitlement to the land that is exposed when a water body recedes, and can be applied to be added to a title under S. 89 of the Land Titles Act, to the extent of the Alberta Township system only. In other words, the water dries up and you can get to the boundary of the Quarter you are on only. So if it is the NE 1/4, you cannot gain land on the SE 1/4. The limit is the boundary between the two.

If you ever come across such a meets and bounds description on a lake lot, even if the limit is the high water mark of Lake X, jump on it fast.

Most modern Lake lot subdivisions (1ate 1970's forward) have considerable environmental reserve setbacks, and the lake shore is public in those cases.

Development of the lake shore is not permitted, not even cutting down trees for a view.

Drewski

Unfortunately some people figure they can do whatever they like and count the cost of the fines etc as part of the cost of developing the property value. A good example of this is Jackfish lake west of Stony Plain . What they have done to this lake is criminal. Over crowded over developed,trees removed to create beaches, loaded with wake boats and so on to the point of nearly destroying this once beautiful lake that used to team with fish and relatively clean water. Now it's murky and gets the usual algae blooms like most other small lakes

[Red Bullets]

This write up is 15 years old but I'm pretty sure not much has changed. It give the best explanations about ownership to the shoreline and beyond.

http://healthyshorelines.com/media/T...d_the_Lake.pdf

I'm pretty sure that at south buck lake there was a farmer that had several acres submerged when the water level weir was put in on the NW side of the lake.

And on drying up lakes....not a new thing. Back in the very early 1900's Lesser Slave Lake was drying up so much so that the government put a road across the dried up lake bed on the west end of the lake. That road is now under a few feet of water.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Why is it that so many lakes seem to be drying up ,especially in the center to eastern part of the province? Is this Oil activity related ,or plain old lack of rain, or are they being choked out by excessive weed growth from fertilizer run off. We have looked on and off for a lake property over the past few years and it seems that so many of the lakes where there is something remotely affordable have the same issue they have dropped by 10 to 15 ft and the fish are near extinct.

Yup....wait until imperial oil burps below the surface....cold lake canyon.....

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

If you look at some very old titles, you will sometimes see a "subdivision" description of X feet North from the south boundary line of XX Quarter, Section XX, Township ..., Range ...., W X Meridian, then westerly from the east boundary of XX Quarter, etc.

Old cabin lots on a number of lakes where deeded in this fashion, called a "meets and bounds description", resulting in the boundaries on the water being preserved for the 1/4, and the subsequent lake lot. This was permitted and no Subdivision to plan / block / lot was done.

What is interesting if there is a "high water mark" boundary is the concept of "Accretion", which gives and takes from boundary lines being a lake. Accretion creates an entitlement to the land that is exposed when a water body recedes, and can be applied to be added to a title under S. 89 of the Land Titles Act, to the extent of the Alberta Township system only. In other words, the water dries up and you can get to the boundary of the Quarter you are on only. So if it is the NE 1/4, you cannot gain land on the SE 1/4. The limit is the boundary between the two.

If you ever come across such a meets and bounds description on a lake lot, even if the limit is the high water mark of Lake X, jump on it fast.

Most modern Lake lot subdivisions (1ate 1970's forward) have considerable environmental reserve setbacks, and the lake shore is public in those cases.

Development of the lake shore is not permitted, not even cutting down trees for a view.

Drewski

Yup we got photos of the 70's people's lake front were basically under water, a few years ago the lake creeped back and they lost land as it approached garages, houses etc....or vice versa in some areas.....better than living 10' from the neighbour though.

[shotgunsteve]

I'd love to steer this thread back on track, regarding lakes drying up.

In search of waterfront property that would be a safe(ish) long term investment within a 1.5 hour drive from Edmonton, preferably in the areas we are discussing (north west).

Are there any lakes in this region (or north east) that have healthy water levels, or are trending in that direction? I've been searching for data from the GoA but no luck as of yet.

Am considering Lac La Nonne and Devils Lake at this point. It seems Sandy Lake will dry up before reversing course, and I'm not aware of any spring fed lakes in this region.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by shotgunsteve

I'd love to steer this thread back on track, regarding lakes drying up.

In search of waterfront property that would be a safe(ish) long term investment within a 1.5 hour drive from Edmonton, preferably in the areas we are discussing (north west).

Are there any lakes in this region (or north east) that have healthy water levels, or are trending in that direction? I've been searching for data from the GoA but no luck as of yet.

Am considering Lac La Nonne and Devils Lake at this point. It seems Sandy Lake will dry up before reversing course, and I'm not aware of any spring fed lakes in this region.

Devils is fed by many springs.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

Just wondering what are all those pumps and hoses along the highways, they must be pumping out of creeks and River supplies where are they going andwho pays for that? Thanks

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Those are c-pumps which they use to pull water from lakes and rivers and pump it into either a c-ring tank on location or into dugouts along the way and then into huge tanks on location.




Vesta has been fracing around sylvan and blackfalds frequently and if you drive on highway 2 north just after you cross the blindman river south of blackfalds the quarry there was used as a source for a frac and has dropped about 2’ and you can see the ice on the sides angled down.

They’ve also been pulling out of the Blindnan River at Hwy 2 and out of the big blackfalds slough begins my house.

I wish we could get that contract then I could work from home haha

[Grizzly Adams]

My so, who works for the government, informed me , at Alberta Environment there are water bodies and bodies of water, not necessarily the same. then there's the school that holds if you make footprint and it fills with water, Alberta Environment needs to be involved. No wonder so many employees are out on Stress Leave at any one time.

Grizz

[Ken07AOVette]

.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Typically conventional crude is one bbl. of water in equals on bbl. of oil out.
Non-convention crude is four bbls. of water equals one bbl. of oil.
This equation doesn't include frac water

Don't let the oil company shills BS ya',

Don

Very rarely will this replacement water be from fresh water. Usually it is from salt water formations or very brackish formations. If you do use fresh water you need to monitor with observation wells to monitor the water table and you get max draw downs and max total volumes on a yearly basis. Companies don’t just get to pump fresh water at free will.

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

.

One of the BEST posts in this thread

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by shotgunsteve

I Am considering Lac La Nonne and Devils Lake at this point. It seems Sandy Lake will dry up before reversing course, and I'm not aware of any spring fed lakes in this region.

You’re right about Sandy, stay away. If you are looking at Lanonne you might as well look at Nakamun in that area as well. There’s Lac Ste Anne, Wabuman and Isle a little West. If it were me I’d look at driving a little farther North......maybe Slave Lake and you don’t have the algae and water level issues of the smaller lakes close to Edmonton. I’ve heard that Skeleton Lake is really nice but I’ve never been there. Good luck!

[Big Grey Wolf]

You need to watch the green, blue green algae. Pigeon lake property values dropped $255,000 on average for lake front when cyano-bacteria blue-green hit the lake, Lac St Anne value stayed constant over last 10 years and Wabamun values went up around $200,000 because lake is still clean. If you want cheap property look for the "Green" stuff.

[shotgunsteve]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Devils is fed by many springs.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

You’re right about Sandy, stay away. If you are looking at Lanonne you might as well look at Nakamun in that area as well. There’s Lac Ste Anne, Wabuman and Isle a little West. If it were me I’d look at driving a little farther North......maybe Slave Lake and you don’t have the algae and water level issues of the smaller lakes close to Edmonton. I’ve heard that Skeleton Lake is really nice but I’ve never been there. Good luck!

Thanks guys, really great insights.

Devil's Lake - I've just begun considering this, really close to home. Great to know that it is spring fed. Does it get very busy in the summer? I also heard about a bad bloom that turned the water red.

Lac La Nonne - again great distance, I have the most experience with this lake. Not sure what the future holds for it, as the water in/out flows are pretty low I believe.

Nakamun - I've heard this is a pretty shallow lake that experiences winter kill and over fishing. Any truth to this?

Wabamun and Isle - how is the fishing? Are they over developed/too busy?

Skeleton/Slave - have heard greatthings, but it's beyond my 1.5hr drive threshold

[shotgunsteve]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

You need to watch the green, blue green algae. Pigeon lake property values dropped $255,000 on average for lake front when cyano-bacteria blue-green hit the lake, Lac St Anne value stayed constant over last 10 years and Wabamun values went up around $200,000 because lake is still clean. If you want cheap property look for the "Green" stuff.

Interesting take, I appreciate this. Do you think that Pigeon could recover, or will the trophic level stay consistent? I deal with "the green stuff" at Lac La Nonne and have accepted this has a near universal constant where we live!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by shotgunsteve

Lac La Nonne - again great distance, I have the most experience with this lake. Not sure what the future holds for it, as the water in/out flows are pretty low I believe.

Nakamun - I've heard this is a pretty shallow lake that experiences winter kill and over fishing. Any truth to this?

Lac Lanonne won't dry up. It's deep and has a weir to allow water to drain out when the levels get too high.

Nakamun experienced a winter kill (perch) a few years ago as did Lac Lanonne and Isle Lake (Walleye).