Update on the Johnny King Buck

[jay fish]

Ishoot, I will try I am not to good with computers. Go to the youtube video and you can see its off the main beam but I will try. Your a smart and honest scorer just by asking those questions. You have to hold thw antlers and its as plain as day its typical. All honesty quite a few have said non typ by the pictures but not said non typ when holding it...

[ishootbambi]

[Chet]

Originally Posted by steve

Chet, would you officially score this buck?

Obviously some politics involved with the any new #1....

I would be happy to if it hadn't already been officially measured. Once any trophy has been done it shouldn't be rescored by another measurer to avoid score shopping. Complaints go to the top and they will and have rescored trophies if they believe a mistake was made.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Chet

I would be happy to if it hadn't already been officially measured. Once any trophy has been done it shouldn't be rescored by another measurer to avoid score shopping. Complaints go to the top and they will and have rescored trophies if they believe a mistake was made.

Copy that.

[ishootbambi]

post a link to the video please jay.

[jay fish]

potty I made a promise to Mr. King when I bought the antlers that I would go as far as I can to get the deer its day, and I am far from done. If the deer is worth more as a WR does that change what the deer grew? Does it change the score? Why is it O.K for the big stores to buy antlers but individuals cant? SCI scored the deer as typical, Buckmasters has scored it typical and is their World Record perfect deer. The Buckmasters scorer also used to be a B&C scorer and also has said they goofed.

[jay fish]

all i know is its on youtube the king buck scoring also was on the deer and deer hunting web page.

[Tundra Monkey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtBhj8iVrHc

Hopefully this is it Bambi

[jay fish]

Thats it tundra, thanks.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by jay fish

Thats it tundra, thanks.

Huge deer Fish......must be somethin' to wrap your mitts around it

I wish they'd just have a transparent panel score done and put it to rest whichever way it goes

Hang around the forum....it's a good one

[ishootbambi]

i watched it up to it freezing at 6:51. there is nothing there that is convincing me. looks to me like he shows the gap of black tape too far up the point. good idea for trying to show the figure 8 though for those that cant touch it, but to me that does not look like the start of the point, although it does bolster your argument by going that high. skip the pics by the way....that video has lots of angles.

heres a thought. that is a replica in the background. maybe you should donate a replica so you can saw the point just like the illustration in the B&C manual.

oh, and a tip....using SCI to boost your argument isnt going to win a ton of support on this forum. buckmasters is less offensive, but lets be honest....they made up a system to make their deer seem a little bigger too. whether you agree with everything or not, B&C is the most respected authority when it comes to this stuff, and for good reason.

and to be fair jay....i have had my hands on wayne zafts buck. he let me touch it before it went to panel. it seemed clear to me that his deer did indeed have a common base typical point. i felt the figure 8 clearly, and in my opinion it was scored incorrect. mistakes are not unheard of.

[Chet]

Fairly recent update fron B&C:

B&C Statement on THE "king buck"
Posted June 6, 2012

Big-game hunters everywhere and especially those in Wisconsin are understandably interested in the King Buck—a magnificent trophy from America’s No. 1 whitetail trophy state.

Though an outstanding specimen indicative of sound conservation and management programs, the King Buck is not a World’s Record according to the Boone and Crockett Club’s scoring system. In a recent letter to the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources, Club officials explained why and offered some important background.

Here’s a summary:

The highest and best use of Boone and Crockett Club’s records is providing conservation professionals with a gauge for measuring success. Science-based and time-proven, trophy records can indicate habitat quality, herd dynamics, and much more.
The King Buck was reviewed and scored using the same procedures used to score whitetails since 1950. It’s this consistency over time that makes Boone and Crockett Club’s records a valuable tool for game managers.
A panel of four official measurers personally examined the King Buck in Pennsylvania. On page 41 of the Boone and Crockett Club’s scoring manual, a rule states, “There are instances where a single point comes off the top inside edge of the main beam and is considered an abnormal point.” The panel unanimously determined that a point on the King Buck’s right side fit this description. Resulting deductions lowered the antlers’ final score well below the threshold of a World’s Record.
The trophy was accepted into Boone and Crockett Club’s records as a 180-class typical trophy. The hunter, Mr. Johnny King, later withdrew the buck from the records. King then reportedly sold the rack, presumably as an investment, to Mr. Jay Fish who began a campaign to dispute the score.
Fish shopped for a Boone and Crockett Club volunteer official measurer willing to perform an unauthorized re-scoring of the rack. In doing so, Mr. Ron Boucher crossed a longstanding Club policy and Code of Conduct. Moreover, he re-scored the rack incorrectly.
Official measurers on the Boone and Crockett Club’s staff in Montana and the chairman of the Club’s Records Committee reviewed photos of the antlers and the score sheet, and unanimously determined that Boucher was mistaken. The original entry score was accurate.
At Fish’s urging, another review took place by a panel of official measurers in Idaho. The panel unanimously agreed that the tine in question was, by rule, an abnormal point.
Club officials informed Boucher that the King Buck’s original score had been confirmed. Boucher, Fish, and others who continued to argue the ruling were invited to send new photos that might offer new evidence, but no photos were received.
Eventually, Boone and Crockett Club was forced to dismiss two individuals for violating the Club’s policies and Code of Conduct. It was not the first time that strong action has been taken to protect the integrity of the Boone and Crockett Club’s records program—and the trophy data used by so many professionals in science-based management of whitetails.

Boone and Crockett Club is always eager to celebrate new World’s Records. Historic bests for Rocky Mountain goat and non-typical American elk have been enthusiastically publicized in recent years. But it’s not only the rarity of such trophies that makes them special. It’s also the unbiased rigor and veracity by which records are certified that makes them genuine. Conservationists and hunters deserve no less.

[jay fish]

Ishoot thanks for your time and I will keep going with this I now can say i have one scorer that says its a non typ.
Tundra thanks and I will keep watching this forum this can be fun.

[jay fish]

That was a good reply by B&C. The deer was never in Idaho and has yet to be seen by B&C's officials. When in Wisconsin the vice chair had those same pictures with him and asked the scorers at that show what they thought of the deer and told the vice chair(Richard Hale) that those photos where taken on such bad angles that they should never be used. Again the original rack was sitting just a doors away and could have been looked at.

[jay fish]

Ishoot, there is no perfect scoring system. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. One question, the line being drawn to high up the point is that a common base or just point in general? Also Jack Renaue told Johnny King the same thing about "cutting the point off to show the figure 8". Jack also said " you can probably prove me wrong by doing that , but I am sure you don't want to cut your deer up" I say I would cut it in a heart beat and let Tom Sexton repair it.

[ishootbambi]

i think where he is measuring the G3 point on its own merit is too high. looks to me like thats why he is seeing it as a typical point by getting the figure 8.

as for cutting it....to me no trophy would ever get that treatment. i have heard an awful horror story of a guy that broke off a non typ point to get his deer into the B&C book. without the deduction it would have made it. he planned on having it repaired after official scoring, but the story leaked and it was refused entry.

i have repaired a couple pf broken points on freinds antlers over the years, but never on one of my own. im not offended by that as its clear the animal grew it, but to alter one just to get some recognition is pretty lame.

im not suggesting cutting the real antlers.....but cutting a replica might get some notice. that might be the only way to show whether or not the figure 8 exists in pictures. thing to remember is to cut it perfectly square to the beam, and in the right place. where that video has the tape....to me at least....does not look to be the correct spot.

[Fletch10]

Originally Posted by jay fish

Ishoot, there is no perfect scoring system. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. One question, the line being drawn to high up the point is that a common base or just point in general? Also Jack Renaue told Johnny King the same thing about "cutting the point off to show the figure 8". Jack also said " you can probably prove me wrong by doing that , but I am sure you don't want to cut your deer up" I say I would cut it in a heart beat and let Tom Sexton repair it.

This is why you are a joke and how you are ruining a great deer. You would cut it up to get it in the book and then have Tom Sexton repair it

You just lost ALL credibility and respect with that comment.

Definitely not respectful of the animal or the records or the industry!

Having the record deer isn't everything....just ask Cody Robbins he is not removing the velvet on his buck which would easily be the new P&Y record.

[jay fish]

Fletch a bit touchy aren't we? If that is what they wanted to get the deer its due, yes I would or the animal would never get the credit it desrved. You should be pointing your finger at B&C they are the ones that said to do it. A side note on this great deer. This deer was shot in the middle of the CWD zone in Wisconsin, they have no closed season and the WI> DNR says the deer will never grow big and healthy. Guess what the WR came out of that zone. After 10 years of just shooting the hell out of the deer look what showed up.
Tundra the antlers weigh over 10lbs. The left side scores over 103". Its a great deer and I look at it everyday.

[Fletch10]

Haha the WR didnt come out of that zone....last time I or anyone else checked the world record came from Saskatchewan Canada

[jay fish]

Fletch, I never said B&C, but This deer is the B&C WR, I know it and it can't be disputted. I will run with the guys who actually held it and studied the antlers compaired to the ones that only looked at pics.
the video shows beyond a shadow of a doubt its typ. Bambi has showed me that.
I know you would like to keep the WR in Canada, and thats fine. The truth is the truth.

[jay fish]

Also my hats off to Cody. He and his girlfriend 9sorry no other way to put it) DO A GREAT JOB WITH THE SHOW. I actually have the sheds off the deer he shot. i don't know to many deer with 12" drops. Its the deer when he was with Jim running with the other deer when his hunter shot Moose insted of this one. I know deer, its my life, well kinda!

[Moo Snukkle]

They screwed up on the Zaft buck and I give them full credit for remaining consistent on their common base ruling. You have to assume the Yanks are dying to get the #1 spot back from Canada in the typical ranks and have shown a lot of balls by not fasttracking this buck to #1. Could cost them a lot of money admitting Wayne had a world record so they're not gonna touch this one with a ten foot pole. Not fair for either buck but great to see consistency in their rulings.

[Speckle55]

Jay the ruling is done by a panel of 4 senior B&C scorers.. and it is final..sorry

also Jay on mule deer with drops scoring over 280 B&C look a http://mountainviewmulies.com then look at Shotgun .. only in Sask /hunt farms /buy or sire mule deer/order in early spring/hunt on opening day

David

[jay fish]

moo I like the handle. i have not seen the Zaft, but friends have and they say its a great deer. Thanks to Canada for keeping it your record at least. remember 2 wrongs don't make it right.

[jay fish]

spekkle 4 guys never ruled on it. Thats our beef. Let the guys see the original and rule on them , thats it. Just so you guys know ,Steve Yzerman is the best hockey player ever! GO WINGS!

[jay fish]

Have you guys heard of the Dewdney Buck? Over 400" non typ wild Mule deer.

[ganderblaster]

This thread is ridiculous it would be one thing if the guy who actually shot the deer was pushing but to buy it and attempt to raise it's status in the book stinks of a money grab get a life.I mean the deer is dead it could care less all this talk of doing the deer justice is like a gong going off.

[Fletch10]

Originally Posted by jay fish

Fletch, I never said B&C, but This deer is the B&C WR, I know it and it can't be disputted. I will run with the guys who actually held it and studied the antlers compaired to the ones that only looked at pics.
the video shows beyond a shadow of a doubt its typ. Bambi has showed me that.
I know you would like to keep the WR in Canada, and thats fine. The truth is the truth.

Obviously you can't read...lol....last time I looked in the B&C record book the WR is Milo Hanson's buck from Sask.

I also saw that measuring video and its still doesn't show without a doubt that its typical. My opinion is that it is a non typical point as it comes off the base of that G2....is further reinforced by the video angles

[jay fish]

See I let youi guys run with this for a while now I will let you the "ruling" from B&C. They said it is its own point , and not common base or comes off the G-2. They ruled that it comes off the inside of the Main Beam. See that video proves its typical no doubt. Agendas are a bad thing. All deer that have been sold should be thrown out of the books, right? You would lose 80% of the record book. Again does the antlers score more or less if its sold. Yes you do have to get the score correct. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, you guys brought that issue up not me .

[steve]

Originally Posted by jay fish

Have you guys heard of the Dewdney Buck? Over 400" non typ wild Mule deer.

I havent. More info?