Best Skinning knife for $200

[Krokitt]

I like my CRKT knife and they also have a huge selection of of all types and sizes.

[BcK]

i use a benchmade bugout it cost a little more then 200 but it’s 1 of the most amazing knives you can buy.

[Dogmatixx]

A boning knife from any meat cutting store, and the bonus is it can be used to pop knuckles and hips open, loosen the spinal column at the skull joint on anything and sharpens easily and holds a good edge. Get a 6” and get a sheath. they are deadly pokey.

[yacine1pr]

Knives of Alaska elk hunter.

[Coiloil37]

It’s a pity most if not all of you haven’t experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages I’ve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970’s bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing there’s no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940’s furuno vs 1950’s lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. That’s how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standard… back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I don’t own and won’t own any s30v knives because it’s never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and you’ll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and it’ll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. I’ve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. It’s very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. It’s designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this pic… aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didn’t help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didn’t help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016” behind the edge.



Now two years later it’s chipping everywhere. This knife isn’t abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know it’s chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife I’ve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo it’s a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I don’t shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006” behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasn’t losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since it’s seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. I’m curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but it’s an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

I’ve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didn’t need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. I’ve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean it’s ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I won’t use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and they’re using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and haven’t bothered to go hunting since so I can’t speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys don’t understand, don’t care or don’t believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, there’s been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media they’re sharpened on, final grit, how they’re stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8” Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words “The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.” Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrin’s testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA you’ll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every “cut” of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth “cycles”) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so I’ll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because it’s always worked for me.

[Ken3134]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It’s a pity most if not all of you haven’t experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages I’ve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970’s bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing there’s no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940’s furuno vs 1950’s lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. That’s how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standard… back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I don’t own and won’t own any s30v knives because it’s never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and you’ll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and it’ll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. I’ve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. It’s very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. It’s designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this pic… aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didn’t help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didn’t help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016” behind the edge.



Now two years later it’s chipping everywhere. This knife isn’t abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know it’s chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife I’ve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo it’s a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I don’t shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006” behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasn’t losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since it’s seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. I’m curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but it’s an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

I’ve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didn’t need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. I’ve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean it’s ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I won’t use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and they’re using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and haven’t bothered to go hunting since so I can’t speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys don’t understand, don’t care or don’t believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, there’s been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media they’re sharpened on, final grit, how they’re stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8” Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words “The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.” Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrin’s testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA you’ll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every “cut” of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth “cycles”) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so I’ll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because it’s always worked for me.

That’s a lot of effort you put into that very well written post and I’d agree with almost all of it, but the OP was asking for recommendation on a skinning knife under $200.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It’s a pity most if not all of you haven’t experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages I’ve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970’s bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing there’s no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940’s furuno vs 1950’s lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. That’s how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standard… back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I don’t own and won’t own any s30v knives because it’s never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and you’ll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and it’ll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. I’ve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. It’s very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. It’s designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this pic… aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didn’t help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didn’t help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016” behind the edge.



Now two years later it’s chipping everywhere. This knife isn’t abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know it’s chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife I’ve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo it’s a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I don’t shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006” behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasn’t losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since it’s seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. I’m curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but it’s an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

I’ve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didn’t need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. I’ve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean it’s ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I won’t use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and they’re using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and haven’t bothered to go hunting since so I can’t speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys don’t understand, don’t care or don’t believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, there’s been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media they’re sharpened on, final grit, how they’re stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8” Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words “The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.” Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrin’s testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA you’ll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every “cut” of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth “cycles”) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so I’ll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because it’s always worked for me.

Damn, I feel completely deprived after reading this. Guess I better get on the interweb and order myself some new cutlery. now I have an excuse.....lol

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It’s a pity most if not all of you haven’t experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. [snip]

That's a great writeup. You must have put a lot of time into it. Thanks.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by chuck

This looks like a heck of a knife! But with a three year wait, what’s the point?

http://www.dozierknives.com/index.ph...=article&id=40

I was gifted a Dozier Sweetwater about a decade ago and I can say it's a great knife. Like Coil, I've found it easy to clean and debone 5 animals before a touchup.

Dozier D2 is something special and Coutts, Ingram and others followed suit making a great "era".

Finding them preowned is difficult but not impossible.

[Dean2]

It was good enough to convince me to try one of these super knives. Old guys can actually learn new tricks. Now to find a Crotts or Dozier D2 knife that isn't a 2 year wait. A couple of the knife sites that sell them are actually pretty reasonable, 220 to 300 U.S. but limited stock, like everything else. Dozier's site shows a 3 year wait to order. Will call Crotts tomorrow and see what their wait time is.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

It’s a pity most if not all of you haven’t experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages I’ve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970’s bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing there’s no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940’s furuno vs 1950’s lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. That’s how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standard… back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I don’t own and won’t own any s30v knives because it’s never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and you’ll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and it’ll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. I’ve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. It’s very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. It’s designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.

I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and haven’t bothered to go hunting since so I can’t speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys don’t understand, don’t care or don’t believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, there’s been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media they’re sharpened on, final grit, how they’re stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so I’ll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because it’s always worked for me.

Thanks, bud. Outta my price range unfortunately. Outstanding write-up. I learn from stuff like this. I'm sure many others do also.

[chasingtail]

$30 Victorinox is good enough for all the big meat plants it’s good enough for me.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

$30 Victorinox is good enough for all the big meat plants it’s good enough for me.

Looks like he has it figured out with a filet knife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTPMUAn-ZCE

[Phil McCracken]

For skinning purposes, I simply use a good old CT utility knife. One blade will do a moose. And as most know, utility blades are very cheap.

Been doing that for the past 15+ years.

Browning has a knife model with disposable blades, which utility blades will fit. Handle more comfortable than a standard utility knife...

[Dean2]

So Coiloil37

After deciding to give one of these super knives a try I have been doing a fair amount of research and trying to learn. I have a question. You claim the D2 knives you have from Crotts and Dozier have far superior edge holding capability. I have studied the chart you provided, read a bunch of stuff on Phil Wilson's site as well as other links you and they provided. I fail to understand how D2 steel accomplishes this when all the test results say S30V hold its edge longer at the same hardness. See the chart you provided below which show D2 at 500, S30V at 600 and S90V at nearly 800. What is it about the D2 steel treatment Crotts uses that makes his steel so much better than regular D2. I don't understand how his D2 steel knives would have superior edge holding to a quality s30V knife from a quality maker like Buck knives. Also, if D2 is so great why did you choose to make your last knife out of S90V, which has even higher edge retention scores than S30V. I know there is a good reason, I just don't understand it. Thanks for your help.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by Dean2

So Coiloil37

After deciding to give one of these super knives a try I have been doing a fair amount of research and trying to learn. I have a question. You claim the D2 knives you have from Crotts and Dozier have far superior edge holding capability. I have studied the chart you provided, read a bunch of stuff on Phil Wilson's site as well as other links you and they provided. I fail to understand how D2 steel accomplishes this when all the test results say S30V hold its edge longer at the same hardness. See the chart you provided below which show D2 at 500, S30V at 600 and S90V at nearly 800. What is it about the D2 steel treatment Crotts uses that makes his steel so much better than regular D2. I don't understand how his D2 steel knives would have superior edge holding to a quality s30V knife from a quality maker like Buck knives. Also, if D2 is so great why did you choose to make your last knife out of S90V, which has even higher edge retention scores than S30V. I know there is a good reason, I just don't understand it. Thanks for your help.

That’s a question best suited to a conversation but I’ll attempt to condense some of it into a short(ish) answer. There’s no way I’m going to be able to cover everything

First, no single test explains everything. At best it accurately shows the results produced in that test. Something like this chart above my post is fine, if your out in the woods with those knives cutting sand impregnated cards. It still didn’t explain the exact heat treat for each steel and if it was optimal. It did state the blades were all identical and sharpened the same way and the test was run 3 times per blade. Which is cool but different steels require different blade profiles to perform their best, different thickness behind the edge, different edge finishes etc. A rope cutting test is good if your in the habit of turning long pieces of rope into shorter pieces of rope and he stated in his results what the knife was, the hardness and thickness behind the edge but that doesn’t translate to performance on an animal or anything else. In short, neither test have anything to do with processing animals but they’re good at showing the differences between steels under specific sets of conditions.

I’ve used a lot of steels in a lot of different knives and have my own opinions. I break it down depending on use and I’m conscientious of what I’m holding and what not to do with it.


There is steel choice, which is important but less so then what comes next. Then there is heat treat and the blade geometry. You could have a steel with an attribute you desire (perhaps it’s wear resistance) but if it isn’t heat treated properly it could be outperformed by what should be a lesser steel on paper. All the steel choice does is gives a hypothetical ceiling on performance, it doesn’t immediately give you that performance though. All steel attributes are a trade off where you sacrifice one for another.
Blade grind and primary/secondary bevels make a difference. The thinner the steel at the edge the more efficiently it slices at the expense of strength. That includes the thickness of the stock, the grind and the final sharpening angle. Regardless if the steel isn’t tough enough to maintain the apex it rolls or chips. If it is strong enough to maintain the apex, due to it being thinner it cuts more efficiently and requires less force to cut, which equates to less pressure and subsequently damage at the apex… edge retention goes up. That too is a trade off. Carbon steels on average are much tougher then stainless. You could grind 1095 thinner then S90v and it would be hair whittling sharp (think straight razor) but the S90v ground to an appropriate thickness would still go the distance in edge retention and media cut due to its wear resistance.

You wont find a factory knife ground as thin as some customs. Factory knives are built for the average guy who could do almost anything to it. Benchmade, spyderco, buck etc. don’t need unhappy customers because their knife broke so they leave them thick enough to handle nearly anything… at the expense of slicing ability. I’m a little short on factory knives around here but I’ve got a spyderco south fork in S90v which is a spyderco/Phil Wilson collaboration. Spyderco has said on different forums they ground it thinner then most factory knives to try and emulate the custom but mine measures .020 behind the edge and the Phil Wilson custom southfork measures .006-.008”.

To try and answer some questions. Idk what makes Doziers heat treat different. It is though, from what I’ve read D2 is relatively simple to heat treat compared to some other steels but google it and you’ll find Bobs heat treat is legendary and deemed proprietary. He gets more from that steel then anyone else I’ve heard of.

Some of the performance has to do with his grind and it’s performance on flesh. It’s not a grind I would choose for carving sticks and doing heavy work but for processing animals it’s very good. The D2 he uses isn’t the CPM variety and has relatively large vanadium carbides. I’ve rationalised to myself those large carbides maintain a very aggressively cutting “toothy” edge. Part of the reason they do is the media they’re sharpened on (diamond) cut and shape the carbides. If I sharpened them on a softer stone where the abrasive was softer then the carbides I would expect less performance as the steel matrix around those carbides would be abraded by the stone, the carbides wouldn’t be touched and would either be standing proud and unshaped on the apex to be ripped out while cutting or would be ripped out in the sharpening process as the steel matrix around them is removed. Sharpen them properly, at an angle large enough to leave them supported and let those carbides do their job and the cutting aggression and wear resistance is impressive.

I chose S90v out of pride and hope it will outperform D2. Pride because on paper it’s a “better” steel and not as vanilla as d2. Hope is where the meat and potatoes are. I know the heat treat is nailed down and the performance he provides with d2. I have no idea how well his S90v heat treat is. I do know it’s more corrosion resistant, significantly more wear resistant and not as tough as d2. Given that I’m processing animals and not banging it off bones or hammering it through pelvises I’ll give up some toughness for the potential to have more edge retention. D2 isn’t a stainless but even sitting here 200m from saltwater and 3km from the ocean I have zero corrosion issues on any of my knives. I am aware the salt in the air could be an issue with the d2 but I wouldn’t expect it with the S90v. It’s entirely possible the S90v will be a disappointment once I start using it if his heat treat missed the mark. It’s also possible that the increased wear resistance leads to a longer lasting, hair whittling edge then d2.

Like I said I haven’t used it yet. I’ve been so busy fishing I haven’t bothered to hunt since I moved here. I did get permission on a property so once summers over I’ll start knocking deer down and using it. The red deer rut in April so a few more months and I’ll get it bloody.

I’ve owned/used the southfork and two folders in S90v. I’ve found it chippy for edc in the folders when hitting staples, rocks, steel etc but in a game processing knife I’ve never had a problem with it. Time will tell won’t it.

[marky_mark]

This is like forged in fire x10000 lol

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

That’s a question best suited to a conversation but I’ll attempt to condense some of it into a short(ish) answer. There’s no way I’m going to be able to cover everything

First, no single test explains everything. At best it accurately shows the results produced in that test. Something like this chart above my post is fine, if your out in the woods with those knives cutting sand impregnated cards. It still didn’t explain the exact heat treat for each steel and if it was optimal. It did state the blades were all identical and sharpened the same way and the test was run 3 times per blade. Which is cool but different steels require different blade profiles to perform their best, different thickness behind the edge, different edge finishes etc. A rope cutting test is good if your in the habit of turning long pieces of rope into shorter pieces of rope and he stated in his results what the knife was, the hardness and thickness behind the edge but that doesn’t translate to performance on an animal or anything else. In short, neither test have anything to do with processing animals but they’re good at showing the differences between steels under specific sets of conditions.

I’ve used a lot of steels in a lot of different knives and have my own opinions. I break it down depending on use and I’m conscientious of what I’m holding and what not to do with it.


There is steel choice, which is important but less so then what comes next. Then there is heat treat and the blade geometry. You could have a steel with an attribute you desire (perhaps it’s wear resistance) but if it isn’t heat treated properly it could be outperformed by what should be a lesser steel on paper. All the steel choice does is gives a hypothetical ceiling on performance, it doesn’t immediately give you that performance though. All steel attributes are a trade off where you sacrifice one for another.
Blade grind and primary/secondary bevels make a difference. The thinner the steel at the edge the more efficiently it slices at the expense of strength. That includes the thickness of the stock, the grind and the final sharpening angle. Regardless if the steel isn’t tough enough to maintain the apex it rolls or chips. If it is strong enough to maintain the apex, due to it being thinner it cuts more efficiently and requires less force to cut, which equates to less pressure and subsequently damage at the apex… edge retention goes up. That too is a trade off. Carbon steels on average are much tougher then stainless. You could grind 1095 thinner then S90v and it would be hair whittling sharp (think straight razor) but the S90v ground to an appropriate thickness would still go the distance in edge retention and media cut due to its wear resistance.

You wont find a factory knife ground as thin as some customs. Factory knives are built for the average guy who could do almost anything to it. Benchmade, spyderco, buck etc. don’t need unhappy customers because their knife broke so they leave them thick enough to handle nearly anything… at the expense of slicing ability. I’m a little short on factory knives around here but I’ve got a spyderco south fork in S90v which is a spyderco/Phil Wilson collaboration. Spyderco has said on different forums they ground it thinner then most factory knives to try and emulate the custom but mine measures .020 behind the edge and the Phil Wilson custom southfork measures .006-.008”.

To try and answer some questions. Idk what makes Doziers heat treat different. It is though, from what I’ve read D2 is relatively simple to heat treat compared to some other steels but google it and you’ll find Bobs heat treat is legendary and deemed proprietary. He gets more from that steel then anyone else I’ve heard of.

Some of the performance has to do with his grind and it’s performance on flesh. It’s not a grind I would choose for carving sticks and doing heavy work but for processing animals it’s very good. The D2 he uses isn’t the CPM variety and has relatively large vanadium carbides. I’ve rationalised to myself those large carbides maintain a very aggressively cutting “toothy” edge. Part of the reason they do is the media they’re sharpened on (diamond) cut and shape the carbides. If I sharpened them on a softer stone where the abrasive was softer then the carbides I would expect less performance as the steel matrix around those carbides would be abraded by the stone, the carbides wouldn’t be touched and would either be standing proud and unshaped on the apex to be ripped out while cutting or would be ripped out in the sharpening process as the steel matrix around them is removed. Sharpen them properly, at an angle large enough to leave them supported and let those carbides do their job and the cutting aggression and wear resistance is impressive.

I chose S90v out of pride and hope it will outperform D2. Pride because on paper it’s a “better” steel and not as vanilla as d2. Hope is where the meat and potatoes are. I know the heat treat is nailed down and the performance he provides with d2. I have no idea how well his S90v heat treat is. I do know it’s more corrosion resistant, significantly more wear resistant and not as tough as d2. Given that I’m processing animals and not banging it off bones or hammering it through pelvises I’ll give up some toughness for the potential to have more edge retention. D2 isn’t a stainless but even sitting here 200m from saltwater and 3km from the ocean I have zero corrosion issues on any of my knives. I am aware the salt in the air could be an issue with the d2 but I wouldn’t expect it with the S90v. It’s entirely possible the S90v will be a disappointment once I start using it if his heat treat missed the mark. It’s also possible that the increased wear resistance leads to a longer lasting, hair whittling edge then d2.

Like I said I haven’t used it yet. I’ve been so busy fishing I haven’t bothered to hunt since I moved here. I did get permission on a property so once summers over I’ll start knocking deer down and using it. The red deer rut in April so a few more months and I’ll get it bloody.

I’ve owned/used the southfork and two folders in S90v. I’ve found it chippy for edc in the folders when hitting staples, rocks, steel etc but in a game processing knife I’ve never had a problem with it. Time will tell won’t it.

Thank you for taking the time to write that out. I and I am sure a lot of others guys, learned a great deal from the posts you have made. Happy New Year.

[Pathfinder76]

This a great watch. It’s about Bob Loveless and his knives. It will make a $300 custom knife seem like a bargain.

https://youtu.be/7v-DuWRfm7s

[Mb-MBR]

This thread got me looking at knives mainly on Gunnutz and I cannot believe the price on some of them.

We had a knife maker in a small town by the name of Niedermeyer, a German fellow whos was a complete gentleman. A fellow archer told me about him 30 years ago or so, I made the call to visit to see some of his knives, arrived about 1:00 p.m on a Saturday. We spent the day and night talking about knives, guns and hunting in his basement.

It was 1:30 a.m before we realized what time it was, I apologized profusely for taking up that much of his time. I ended up buying 2 knives that day and went back subsequent times and bought others but it was mostly to visit.

He was only an hour or so from the city but his wife made me a lunch for the drive home.........wonderful people.

[spurly]

This was a great read. I had no intention, of buying another knife, but after reading this I think I will be buying a Clint C knife, and for sure a Grohman
Knife.

[sns2]

When I went to House of Knives, I took pics of their steel reference charts. May be helpful to some...




Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

When I went to House of Knives, I took pics of their steel reference charts. May be helpful to some...




Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

It's important to look at all of those ratings, I have a couple of friends that purchased knives based solely on edge retension, and both end up taking their knives to someone else to sharpen, because they couldn't get a good edge on them.

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's important to look at all of those ratings, I have a couple of friends that purchased knives based solely on edge retension, and both end up taking their knives to someone else to sharpen, because they couldn't get a good edge on them.

Angles… It makes a big difference no matter what steel is being used. Too much angle, not enough angle etc will all have an effect on edge retention and depending on the primary job of the tool, the angle should be different for maximum ability.

[Demonical]

Shoot a deer skin a deer...

Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.

Crazy.

A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Demonical

Shoot a deer skin a deer...

Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.

Crazy.

A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

...

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Demonical

Shoot a deer skin a deer...

Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.

Crazy.

A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

We get it already. You throw your junk in a bag and go hunting. We got that. No one told you that you use shtty stuff, so why do you feel the need to tell us that $200 or more on a tool that will last a lifetime , and can then be passed down to others, is beyond me. Now take your negative crap elsewhere.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Demonical

Shoot a deer skin a deer...

Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.

Crazy.

A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

Well in that case, save the 5 bucks and sharpen a piece of rock. That is how they did it in the good old days. While you are at it, forget the gun, make a spear too!

If you don't like a thread you aren't obligated to post on it. Some of us enjoy figuring out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Others, $200 isn't really much money, they get to have fun too. No one pooped all over you for the gear you use and take no care of, give others the same respect. Hope you have a great New Year and get your happy back.

Oops - I see SNS2 was typing at the same time as I was.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by Demonical

Shoot a deer skin a deer...



Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.



Crazy.



A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

Totally disagree.
Yes shoot a deer skin a deer.....can be done with a 2$ knife...

Analyzing how our tools perform is exactly what we do some its about caliber, others about glass, or high tech clothing. Knives are no different.. for me a knife is extremely important as it might be the difference between being able to complete the job without wrecking my hands or paying for a few minutes work with pain for days. Efficiency of work makes a difference. Inefficient adds stresses and extra effort that while you may not notice it does or can play a toil. When I use a knife I want it to do the work not me. Some guys pay 400$ for a shirt because it performs above the level of a walmart camo. Knives are no different.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Ken3134]

Originally Posted by Demonical

Shoot a deer skin a deer...

Holy crap the over-analysis that this thread has caused.

Crazy.

A ****ing $5 knife is every bit as good as the so-called $200 knife, which who the hell would spend $200 on a knife for skinning deer??

This is a Skookum Bush Tool made for me by a custom knife maker in England. The design is based off of input from Mohrs Kohanski a Canadian author who was a Survival expert and Instructor in Alberta. RIP Mohrs…….
It’s a $600 knife that I mostly whittle sticks with.