how does an animal die after shots in different body areas

[amosfella]

I find breaking the spine or a head shot the most effective. Place the bullet about a third of the way up the ears. Seems to be a good marker up to 45 degrees above the head. Hit right, the animal will be dead before it hits the ground... You're aiming for the small hole where the brain turns into the spinal cord and enters the spine...

I have lots of experience, and a few here can vouch for that... Right now, I'd be at about the top 2% by number of kills on this forum IMHO.... (if not higher)

[oldgutpile]

Regardless of how the animal is shot, by bullet or arrow, death is caused by a disruption of the blood-flow to the brain. Any major disruption will ultimately lead to the animal bleeding out, either internally or externally. This can be done by causing damage to any major organ, or the severing of an artery (carotid, femoral, etc.). All damage results in eventual blood supply (and the necessary oxygen carried by the blood) being cut off.
What we want to preach, is the proper shot placement to ensure that the blood supply is terminated as fast as possible (ie: heart/lung shot) and that the animal does not suffer.
I know of animals shot in the back-end that bled out, due to a hit on the femoral artery. Effective, but not something to promote ethical harvest of the resource.
Most animals that collapse on the shot, likely have had the wind knocked out of them at the same time, and they would not have time to recover before bleeding was terminal. I have witnessed both extremes: a buck that was lung-shot run 400 yards before collapsing in mid-stride, and those that fell at the shot and never rose again.
Severing the spinal cord (as opposed to the generic "back-shot") is only effective in destroying the animal's motor skills from the damaged area to the tail-bone. I have witnessed deer trying to escape on their front legs, while dragging their back legs behind them. Only spinal shots above, or in front of the shoulders, would totally cripple the animal to require a finishing shot. Brain shots would immediately be terminal, but the animal should be bled out, before the heart stops pumping, as there is no other wound for the blood to escape the system.
On the topic of blood-letting, or "bleeding out" the animal, I would say that this is not totally necessary when damage has been done to the circulatory system. You would likely notice massive hemorraging and blood pooling in the body cavity while dressing the animal.
Brain and/or spinal shots, would not likely create enough bleeding to accomplish proper bleeding, and so I would highly recommend cutting the carotid artery (throat). Improper bleeding can result in a lower quality meat, as well as the factor that blood itself is a great culture for the growth of bacteria. All meat will have a certain amount of blood in it, regardless of how well it is bled-out, and yes, this does enhance the aging process by assisting in break-down of muscle tissue.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by amosfella

I find breaking the spine or a head shot the most effective. Place the bullet about a third of the way up the ears. Seems to be a good marker up to 45 degrees above the head. Hit right, the animal will be dead before it hits the ground... You're aiming for the small hole where the brain turns into the spinal cord and enters the spine...

I have lots of experience, and a few here can vouch for that... Right now, I'd be at about the top 2% by number of kills on this forum IMHO.... (if not higher)

I hope you work at a packing plant....

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Could someone explain how an animal dies via "Texas Heart Shot" ??Physiologically speaking?

Use a bullet designed to penetrate deeply, the idea is to put the bullet right in between the rear hindquarters without hitting them and wrecking the meat, not to high to avoid wrecking the tenderloin and backstraps along the spine, the bullet goes from the back end through the guts, liver, through the diaphragm into the chest cavity where it wrecks the heart, lungs or both. It's usually a very messy gut job as the stomach and intestines are usually wrecked and their contents are blown all through the gut and abdomen cavities. It can be a very deadly shot if done accurately, but there is not much room for error, there is too much chance for making a mess, ruining a lot of meat and contaminating good meat with gut contents. It is not a recommended method of killing an animal.

[Dr.Dan]

I've seen lung shots kill game very quickly. Exanguination through the lungs is very likely as they are highly vascularized with lots of big vessels. It's definitely not just capillaries.
The game I've seen had sucking chest wounds, not tension pneumothoraces.

Also, it is conceivable that the pressure wave of a bullet travelling near to the heart could cause a fatal arrhythmia such as ventricular fibrillation, thereby stopping blood flow.

Lung +/- heart is an ethical target in my opinion.

dd

[AlbertaWhitetail]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

if the blood stop from going to the brain due to heart destruction or big vessel complete cut, no creature on earth can move a step even if you inject a ton of Adrenalin. Adrenalin work by activating the heart so if no heart to respond so ??

that is why in many hunting videos you see immediate animal drop, or how can you explain the immediate drop of the animal? as we all see in many animals.

i shot a buck at 20-30 yards split his heart in half and he ran about 30 or so yards then dropped dead.

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Use a bullet designed to penetrate deeply, the idea is to put the bullet right in between the rear hindquarters without hitting them and wrecking the meat, not to high to avoid wrecking the tenderloin and backstraps along the spine, the bullet goes from the back end through the guts, liver, through the diaphragm into the chest cavity where it wrecks the heart, lungs or both. It's usually a very messy gut job as the stomach and intestines are usually wrecked and their contents are blown all through the gut and abdomen cavities. It can be a very deadly shot if done accurately, but there is not much room for error, there is too much chance for making a mess, ruining a lot of meat and contaminating good meat with gut contents. It is not a recommended method of killing an animal.

Was hoping someone would bite...hahaha

[kujoseto]

Tbird, it looks more like you wrote that after smoking way too much green stuff than as if you were in a hurry. Interesting musings but it leaves me a little more concerned about what you're doing during your think time than hunting

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by Arnak

I'm with Cat on that.

And the moment the heart stops pumping I don't believe there is much place for massive hemorrhage. The blood that will be lost at this point is was in the immediate area of the wound. In slaughter houses they proceed to exsanguination by making the animal insensitive to pain before to make the incision. It's kind of a "painless slow death", something that's hard to pull with a rifle or a bow in my opinion.

From what I know cattle are shot with a captive bolt gun in the head to KILL them.
Then hung and then bled in slaughter houses.
Guess I have a lot to learn.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by roper1

I hope you work at a packing plant....

Not quite that simple... But I can go with that... I do some dealing with problem children and injuries... Animals that can't be loaded, others like that...

I have had some interesting experiences with said problem children...

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by vcmm

From what I know cattle are shot with a captive bolt gun in the head to KILL them.
Then hung and then bled in slaughter houses.
Guess I have a lot to learn.

Yep... Get back to the grind.... Got to learn more .....

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by vcmm

From what I know cattle are shot with a captive bolt gun in the head to KILL them.
Then hung and then bled in slaughter houses.
Guess I have a lot to learn.

False
They are stunned and an artery in the neck is opend to facilitate bleedout while the heart is still functional, a captive bolt gun is used in place of or in conjunction with electrocution... chicken is done the same way except the head is removed completely within seconds of being stunned.. The standards for slaughtering of animals are available online and visual reference can be found on YouTube under "cattle kill floor" if your interested.


I've gotten into arguments before on hunting forums over such topics, CGN had a thread about bleeding animals and people got quite rude when I explained the futility of "draining" an animals blood thru slitting it's throat after you perforated it's lungs or heart... Seems people can't understand that when you disconnect the pump nothing comes out of the middle of a pipe... With a double lung hit that ruptures a main pipe everything ends up spilling out of said pipe till the pump runs dry.... If you want blood free meat (no such thing) then hitting the off button without draining the plumbing ain't a smart idea unless you care to do some CPR....


As to heart shots causing instant death?

This little black bear had enough poop left in em after taking a 180gr .308 pill from 12' away I put the next one thru the shoulders to keep em down... He had enough time before the lights went out to have easily strolled over to me and gave me a slap across the cheek...

[thunderbird]

Mmm, it is very interesting to read how do people react to somthing they do not agree with, what I read here from the fellows is reality that helps me to build knowldge about the group and people I am joining as I said I am relatively new to this. I am really happy with all what I read. If you want to know someone fast give him a keyboard and tell him write on it anonymously, you will be amazed how fast you know him.
Also
I might have been smoking green thing before writing this as one of the respectful fellows said.

I can see some people see deer running with no hearts and walking with no connection to the brain with cut spinal cord, I do not know what to say or argue, with due respect to them.


Keep the thread up I wanna learn more

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Dr.Dan

I've seen lung shots kill game very quickly. Exanguination through the lungs is very likely as they are highly vascularized with lots of big vessels. It's definitely not just capillaries.
The game I've seen had sucking chest wounds, not tension pneumothoraces.

Also, it is conceivable that the pressure wave of a bullet travelling near to the heart could cause a fatal arrhythmia such as ventricular fibrillation, thereby stopping blood flow.

Lung +/- heart is an ethical target in my opinion.

dd

I like speaking science, ok. So I want to ask you, is what I have said about tension pneumothorax was wrong??? Because I understand you say I am wrong about it. Second, if you cut lung tissue will the animal bleed to death?? Of course no, any area in the body will bleed if hit, and I made it clear lung shot kills not due to bleeding but if you hit a large vessel he will bleed to death. In this case you can not call it lung shot.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I like speaking science, ok. So I want to ask you, is what I have said about tension pneumothorax was wrong??? Because I understand you say I am wrong about it. Second, if you cut lung tissue will the animal bleed to death?? Of course no, any area in the body will bleed if hit, and I made it clear lung shot kills not due to bleeding but if you hit a large vessel he will bleed to death. In this case you can not call it lung shot.

I'm not surd what you are getting at here.
If I shoot an animal in the lungs with an arrow or bullet, it will bleed out, if I hit it in the hind keg without hitting a main artery or vein I more than likely will never see that animal again, and if I do it will likely be due to days of tracking !
If I " cut lung tissue" ax you put it, that animal will die quickly.
Cat

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

False
They are stunned and an artery in the neck is opend to facilitate bleedout while the heart is still functional, a captive bolt gun is used in place of or in conjunction with electrocution... chicken is done the same way except the head is removed completely within seconds of being stunned.. The standards for slaughtering of animals are available online and visual reference can be found on YouTube under "cattle kill floor" if your interested.


I've gotten into arguments before on hunting forums over such topics, CGN had a thread about bleeding animals and people got quite rude when I explained the futility of "draining" an animals blood thru slitting it's throat after you perforated it's lungs or heart... Seems people can't understand that when you disconnect the pump nothing comes out of the middle of a pipe... With a double lung hit that ruptures a main pipe everything ends up spilling out of said pipe till the pump runs dry.... If you want blood free meat (no such thing) then hitting the off button without draining the plumbing ain't a smart idea unless you care to do some CPR....


As to heart shots causing instant death?

This little black bear had enough poop left in em after taking a 180gr .308 pill from 12' away I put the next one thru the shoulders to keep em down... He had enough time before the lights went out to have easily strolled over to me and gave me a slap across the cheek...

Back at you
Poultry and pigs are stunned then bled. Cattle are knocked or shot.
Maybe a few people who do this for a living will pipe in

[rottie]

Don't work on the kill floor any more but years ago it was a bolt gun that drove a metal rod into the brain that was used. This may have changed but that's how beef animals were killed. The bolt was retracted and then recharged with a color coded cap, then reused.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by rottie

Don't work on the kill floor any more but years ago it was a bolt gun that drove a metal rod into the brain that was used. This may have changed but that's how beef animals were killed. The bolt was retracted and then recharged with a color coded cap, then reused.

Oldgutpile owns Alberta Prairie Meats and still runs the kill floor there, maybe he will chime in!
Cat

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Oldgutpile owns Alberta Prairie Meats and still runs the kill floor there, maybe he will chime in!
Cat

[Lefty-Canuck]

When this thread was started was the actual goal to ask or to tell?

It seemed like you were asking, but in retrospect you seem to want to tell.

There has been some good replies to explain this to you, but I sense you don't care to listen

I am out

LC

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

there is a compression wave that goes around the bullet that destroy tissues, this wave will decrease with longer distance

I think what you are calling compression ring is actually called hydrostatic shock wave .

And why come on here asking, everyone that has offered you advice, you have debated and argued with! Are you trolling or just looking to prove yourself educated?

[mark-edmonton]

[QUOTE=amosfella;2947291

I have lots of experience, and a few here can vouch for that... Right now, I'd be at about the top 2% by number of kills on this forum IMHO.... (if not higher)[/QUOTE]


I can't hear your humbleness over your self tooting horn!!

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by amosfella

I find breaking the spine or a head shot the most effective. Place the bullet about a third of the way up the ears. Seems to be a good marker up to 45 degrees above the head. Hit right, the animal will be dead before it hits the ground... You're aiming for the small hole where the brain turns into the spinal cord and enters the spine...

I have lots of experience, and a few here can vouch for that... Right now, I'd be at about the top 2% by number of kills on this forum IMHO.... (if not higher)

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

When this thread was started was the actual goal to ask or to tell?

It seemed like you were asking, but in retrospect you seem to want to tell.

There has been some good replies to explain this to you, but I sense you don't care to listen

I am out

LC

Agreed!

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

False
They are stunned and an artery in the neck is opend to facilitate bleedout while the heart is still functional, a captive bolt gun is used in place of or in conjunction with electrocution... chicken is done the same way except the head is removed completely within seconds of being stunned.. The standards for slaughtering of animals are available online and visual reference can be found on YouTube under "cattle kill floor" if your interested.


I've gotten into arguments before on hunting forums over such topics, CGN had a thread about bleeding animals and people got quite rude when I explained the futility of "draining" an animals blood thru slitting it's throat after you perforated it's lungs or heart... Seems people can't understand that when you disconnect the pump nothing comes out of the middle of a pipe... With a double lung hit that ruptures a main pipe everything ends up spilling out of said pipe till the pump runs dry.... If you want blood free meat (no such thing) then hitting the off button without draining the plumbing ain't a smart idea unless you care to do some CPR....


As to heart shots causing instant death?

This little black bear had enough poop left in em after taking a 180gr .308 pill from 12' away I put the next one thru the shoulders to keep em down... He had enough time before the lights went out to have easily strolled over to me and gave me a slap across the cheek...

I"m sorry... Somehow, I don't think you know who you replied to...

[Saltmania]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I like speaking science, ok. So I want to ask you, is what I have said about tension pneumothorax was wrong??? Because I understand you say I am wrong about it. Second, if you cut lung tissue will the animal bleed to death?? Of course no, any area in the body will bleed if hit, and I made it clear lung shot kills not due to bleeding but if you hit a large vessel he will bleed to death. In this case you can not call it lung shot.

Of course lung shots cause the animal to bleed massively and die very quickly. Whether this is the "lung tissue" or connected vascular system doesn't matter; it's still a lung shot. Anybody who has ever lung shot an animal knows that they die from being bled out. You've been told this over and over by folks with a ton of real world experience so stop being pedantic and contrary.

[calgarychef]

I ain't a doctor or an Internet genius just a simple cook. All I know is a lung shot animal is literally awash in blood when I open the chest cavity. I suggest it's bled out.

[Dr.Dan]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I like speaking science, ok. So I want to ask you, is what I have said about tension pneumothorax was wrong??? Because I understand you say I am wrong about it. Second, if you cut lung tissue will the animal bleed to death?? Of course no, any area in the body will bleed if hit, and I made it clear lung shot kills not due to bleeding but if you hit a large vessel he will bleed to death. In this case you can not call it lung shot.

Any wound through the chest has the potential to cause a tension pneumothorax. However, in my experience they developed large sucking chest wounds which were true pneumothoraces ie) lungs immediately completely collapsed, not a tension pneumo.

So a tension pneumo is a potential lethal event, but I'm suggesting only a minority of lung shots would lead to this. The tension pneumo process is relatively slow. I think most lung shots result in death much faster.


Bleeding from lungs occurs because there are so many vessels packed into it that a bullet going through the lung will hit significant vessels. Unless you hit just the edge, it's unlikely to hit just parenchyma and not vasculature. It doesn't need to be the main pulmonary artery, lots and lots of the branches are big enough to cause quick exanguination.

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

When this thread was started was the actual goal to ask or to tell?

It seemed like you were asking, but in retrospect you seem to want to tell.

There has been some good replies to explain this to you, but I sense you don't care to listen

I am out

LC

I did not want to ask, I did not want to tell. I wanted to share what I read for a while, and discuss about it, and I read every reply and listen. But what was interesting is the way people talk. I have learned from what was written in many aspects.and I do not know how do you judge others like that, as you say I do not listen.
Yes you are true I liked many replies here.

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

I think what you are calling compression ring is actually called hydrostatic shock wave .

And why come on here asking, everyone that has offered you advice, you have debated and argued with! Are you trolling or just looking to prove yourself educated?

You are mixing things, do I have to aggree with every opinion posted here. Some say animas can walk with full blown heart and run with brain disconnect after cut spinal cord. How should this be correct? ?

The only valid debate I found was the one about lung shot, other than this nothing is logic. I read what people say and respect it all, So your last sentence is invald and not accepted.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

I did not want to ask, I did not want to tell. I wanted to share what I read for a while, and discuss about it, and I read every reply and listen. But what was interesting is the way people talk. I have learned from what was written in many aspects.

Fair enough, the thing that stuck out for me was your understanding of what happens on a lung shot...that understanding differs greatly from my experience.

Lungs shot produce profuse bleeding....and the animal bleeds out in the chest cavity well.

Hence my questions about your field experience, if you had taken a lung shot in the past....the first time you gutted an animal your ideas would change.

LC