If not global warming, how would one explain 500K Sq. Kilometers of Sea Ice gone?

[Rock Doctor]

Originally Posted by avb3

Really? Since the National Snow and Ice Data center is the repository of both Antarctic and the Arctic studies, show me exactly which study or series of studies show that?

Please.

Oh, I don't recall exactly, National Geographic or Discovery News maybe.
You could probably find it if you want

RD

[New Hunter Okotoks]

Ok avb3, you are right, it is Global Warming and there's not as much ice as there was 40 years ago.

So?

[winger7mm]

The earth cycles through iceage and tropics (im not sure of what the term is but you get the idea) The fact that humans some how managed to evolve during the end of the ice age, its only a matter of time before we get hot and all the ice melts and we all die because people will freak out and kill eachother. whether or not we aided and sped it up, that doesnt matter as its gonna happen regardless. the best thing you can do is pray to the lord and get him to change it Just be thankfull that your still alive and hopfully in good health to enjoy the outdoors while you can and while its still here. It wont happen in our lifetime BUT sooner or later the world will get to hot to support our life and we'll start dying off, just like many many species before us. After all we are just animals. Look at how many fossils and such they find of animals past, how are they any different then us. What we evolved a lil further then they did, big whoop, the ones that evolve after us will exceed anything we could ever do. If you dont like that sorry bout your luck, its the way of the earth and time.

[vcmm]

It's warm enough for everybody to go outside and play.

[leo]

I believe it is the natural cycle of a living organism to be in constant change. It is the unfortunate arrogance or ignorance of mankind to think he can control and manipulate thier environment. Should we destroy the global economy and embrase the Al Gore religion of green? No! But I am all for each person doing what little bit they can to minimize our imprint on this planet of ours.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by leo

I believe it is the natural cycle of a living organism to be in constant change. It is the unfortunate arrogance or ignorance of mankind to think he can control and manipulate thier environment. Should we destroy the global economy and embrase the Al Gore religion of green? No! But I am all for each person doing what little bit they can to minimize our imprint on this planet of ours.

Agreed! I recycle my brass.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Rock Doctor

Oh, I don't recall exactly, National Geographic or Discovery News maybe.
You could probably find it if you want

RD

In other words, like many others, you like to express an opinion, but when asked to point to facts... well, guess you just stick to your opinion.

After all, what can all that fancy scientific stuff like satellites and remote sensing do any ways. Gee, one would think those scientists had invented GPS or something. Of figured out infrared sensing.

Naaaaaaa.... couldn't be... they have an agenda.

[RussellZ]

Originally Posted by leo

I believe it is the natural cycle of a living organism to be in constant change. It is the unfortunate arrogance or ignorance of mankind to think he can control and manipulate thier environment. Should we destroy the global economy and embrase the Al Gore religion of green? No! But I am all for each person doing what little bit they can to minimize our imprint on this planet of ours.

Exactly!

Just cause we can't do anything about the natural cycle of things on this planet does not print the right to just go and pollute the world to excess intentionally. That said, why freak out and send ourselves back to the stone age over a few degrees C of temperature and rising sea levels? And CO2 emissions? Really? Do you know anything about photosynthesis? The last time I checked, more CO2 + warmer temperatures = more plants = more O2. CO2 is a terrible greenhouse gas (it hardly traps any heat at all), and serves more of a benefit than not. There are much, much worse gasses to be releasing into the atmosphere that are not demonized by Mr Suzuki.

Probably the worst of them all is water vapour. Yup, good ol dihydrogen monoxide. That stuff will kill you if you get it in your lungs and it is by far and large the biggest contributor to the greenhouse effect! Better figure out a way to stop those evil fluffy white clouds from forming to save the world!

Again, who cares if the temperature increases, or if the water levels rise? Do you have ocean front property you stand to loose? Our kids and their kids are not going to be negatively affected by a loss of a few km of beach front property or a minor increase in temperatures! Going to loose New Orleans, LA or Vancouver? Oh well, their stupidity for building right on the coast! Nor are they going to care if the polar bear ceases to exist.

Earth is a tough neighbourhood. If you don't have what it takes to adapt and survive in your changing enviroment, you just wind up on the extinction list where you belong.

Call me callous, but it is the natural way of things. I think humans wreck way more with their good intentions than their malicious intent. If we ruin the world economy in the name of the environment and start tossing nuclear weapons at eachother, I suspect we'll do more damage than if we keep producing energy and improving our own existance. When the earth tires of us making use of it's resources, our race will fall to disease, famine or to our own hands in some grand war. The world will end as we know it, maybe go through a nuclear winter for a couple hundred years but ultimately it will recover and life will carry on in one way or another.

I'll do my best to leave my kids with the same opportunities I am offered, but nothing is gauranteed. I'll pick up the garbage in my back yard, and recycle my pop cans, but you can be sure that I will not stop using petroleum products or working for those who extract and upgrade them any time soon.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by avb3

I'm sure there are individuals on this board who have a great explanation of why:

1. The scientists are wrong
2. The scientists have an agenda
3. It isn't happening
4. We really are in an ice age
5. It's a hoax
6. Etc, Etc.

As this article shows, there is a reduction of over 500,000 square kilometers of sea ice in the Canadian arctic from the 40 year AVERAGE.

Quoting from the article, which was from a briefing given Environment Minister Kent:

Ice in Canadian waters had retreated by mid-September 2011 to 351,359 square kilometres, states the document, dated Oct. 3, 2011, and released this month to Postmedia News under the Access to Information Act.

The average minimum since 1971 is 838,348 square kilometres, it added.

The information was supplemented by new information from the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), sponsored by NASA, the National Science Foundation (NSF), the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). I'm sure the deniers will find fault with these agencies also. I can already hear the "90 NASA scientiest's who wrote a letter" comments, most of them who were retired, engineers and pilots.

Of course, those deniers will somehow be able to explain the bad science that does the following:

To monitor Arctic sea ice, NSIDC primarily uses the NASA Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer–Earth Observing System (AMSR-E) instrument on the NASA Terra satellite and the Special Sensor Microwave/Imager (SSM/I) instrument on the Defense Meteorological Satellite Program (DMSP) satellite. The satellites pass over the polar region several times each day to gather data; researchers can then form the data into images for analysis and publication.

So, if it is not global warming, what is causing this? I am sure there are expert deniers who have an answer.

Do you believe everything you read? A wiseman once said don't believe anything you read and only half of what you hear.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Global warming may or may not be a thing that is happening, but the crap that we pour into the environment will be here for generations to look after.

Is that like: "CCW may or may not reduce crime, but the psychos we fail to lock up will be on the same streets as our kids."

I'm not sure if I have the hang of that logic, but that's kinda what it sounded like; given the fact that I have never heard a "denier" promote pollution.

I have heard a "denier" reject the notion that CO2, being a naturally produced plant food, is a pollutant but surely you are not going to insist that we all buy into that Global Warmonger dictionary before we have a conversation, are you? That's called 'stacking the deck'. (It's obvious, too.)

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Is that like: "CCW may or may not reduce crime, but the psychos we fail to lock up will be on the same streets as our kids."

I'm not sure if I have the hang of that logic, but that's kinda what it sounded like; given the fact that I have never heard a "denier" promote pollution.

I have heard a "denier" reject the notion that CO2, being a naturally produced plant food, is a pollutant but surely you are not going to insist that we all buy into that Global Warmonger dictionary before we have a conversation, are you? That's called 'stacking the deck'. (It's obvious, too.)

Having a tough time following that, i was making a reference to Mr . russelZ statement that "The earth will reclaim our cities and deal with our pollution in due time." and our unwillingness to deal with pollution. not sure what stacking the deck is or what the "Global Warmonger dictionary" is. I've always lumped people that deny global warming along with those that don't believe we are causing damage to our planet through pollution together, my mistake.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Is that like: "CCW may or may not reduce crime, but the psychos we fail to lock up will be on the same streets as our kids."

Speaking of psychos, you might just truly be their best spokesman. Do you simply wake up on the wrong side of the bed every day or perhaps you were weaned way too early. I truly have never experienced so much angriness about everything and anything. You often suggest that people need to have their meds adjusted, might I suggest that you need some meds or perhaps hint towards some anger management.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by avb3

In other words, like many others, you like to express an opinion, but when asked to point to facts... well, guess you just stick to your opinion.

After all, what can all that fancy scientific stuff like satellites and remote sensing do any ways. Gee, one would think those scientists had invented GPS or something. Of figured out infrared sensing.

Naaaaaaa.... couldn't be... they have an agenda.

I'm seriously thinking the ice might be gone due to "climate change?"...and not global warming???...what do you think????

[conehead]

I'd comment but it's to f%kin hot

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by conehead

I'd comment but it's to f%kin hot

so what's the point? say what you gotta say.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

so what's the point? say what you gotta say.

.....??????

[Dunezilla]

Thanks to the melting ice they found bodies of British Sailors from the 1800's. Think of the increase of the deer populations in Alberta since 1997......that is why we enjoyed some great hunting since then.

People panic over YK2 & spent loads of $$$ & nothing even happened, we were all warm & snug, & had electricity. Others lined their pockets with money over a scare tactic.

[avb3]

So, now back to the original question.

If it is not global warming (or climate change if you prefer) that is causing the significant reduction of Arctic ice, what is it?

[bb356]

Originally Posted by avb3

So, now back to the original question.

If it is not global warming (or climate change if you prefer) that is causing the significant reduction of Arctic ice, what is it?

All the hot air blowing from this thread ???

[leo]

Originally Posted by avb3

So, now back to the original question.

If it is not global warming (or climate change if you prefer) that is causing the significant reduction of Arctic ice, what is it?

In my opinion the answer is in your question. Climate change. The question should be, "exactly how much is contributed by mankind, how much by other contributing factors" ,such as volcanic eruptions and forest fires which have been natural occurances since before man. Do we leave a footprint ? Absolutely, is it a major contribution to climate change?? That one I am not sold on.

Leo

[6tmile]

Originally Posted by avb3

So, now back to the original question.

If it is not global warming (or climate change if you prefer) that is causing the significant reduction of Arctic ice, what is it?

It was never there.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06...e_not_melting/ Temperatures have been on the rise SINCE the last ice age,

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I've always lumped people that deny global warming along with those that don't believe we are causing damage to our planet through pollution together, my mistake.

It's not your mistake. You have been taught to do that. Hence, I pointed it out. I never thought for a second you made it up.

Radical leftists have known for decades that in order to change society, you have to change the words they are allowed to use and the meaning of other words. That's not my theory. That was set out by Chomsky and refined by Saul Alinsky.

The reason they want us to visualize CO2 with "pollutants" has very little to do with the environment.

[chasingtail]

Originally Posted by avb3

In other words, like many others, you like to express an opinion, but when asked to point to facts... well, guess you just stick to your opinion.

After all, what can all that fancy scientific stuff like satellites and remote sensing do any ways. Gee, one would think those scientists had invented GPS or something. Of figured out infrared sensing.

Naaaaaaa.... couldn't be... they have an agenda.

Just google "Antartica ice growing" the first on the list of 514,000 results is from National Geographic, of course they blame the ozone layer for causing it and that global warming will melt it all eventually. It is true though the Antartica ice is growing.

Climate change may be happing but what are any of you global warming cheerleaders actually doing about? Did you down size your home? Use a bicycle/horse as your primary transportation? Wash your clothes in the creek? Stop buying things made out of petroleum?

AVB spell out exactly what you want everyone to do about it, what exactly are you doing to reduce your CO2 footprint? Give me some ideas I want to help you save the world!

The day these global warming freaks had to live like we did 200 years ago would be they day they changed their mind, I on the other hand would love to go back to the horse and buggy days.


For those of you worried about CO2, I have a solution pay me $1999 and I will plant 27 trees on my land, this will offset the amount of CO2 you produce. That way you can live the rest of life knowing you made a difference, but wait for a limited time I will plant not 27 but 54 trees for 1999.99 so you can offset your partners CO2. PM in the next 10 minutes because I can't do this all day.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by avb3

So, now back to the original question.

If it is not global warming (or climate change if you prefer) that is causing the significant reduction of Arctic ice, what is it?

CHANGE. "And That too will Pass". The earth and the passage of time is something humans cannot even begin to understand or control. Ego is a human trait and does not matter in the Earth`s history.

[prasky]

http://www.friendsofscience.org/

Go to myths and facts, pretty interesting to say the least.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

J...........
Climate change may be happing but what are any of you global warming cheerleaders actually doing about? Did you down size your home? Use a bicycle/horse as your primary transportation? Wash your clothes in the creek? Stop buying things made out of petroleum?

Yeah, my bicycle gets a lot of use and I am lucky I can structure most of my work that way. Not everyone can. But, yeah, a 25km one way trip is done frequently. In time, it will save you $$$ on my medical bills, so you can thank me now. I've spent maybe $20 in gas in the past month... maybe.

Yup, got the smaller house too. Amazing how much money that can save you.

AVB spell out exactly what you want everyone to do about it, what exactly are you doing to reduce your CO2 footprint? Give me some ideas I want to help you save the world!

Don't pretend the issue of global warming or climate change is not a reality. It is. Some of it is human activity. That part we can mitigate.

We won't go away, but we can mitigate how we impact the world we live in. It's all in choices, isn't it?

Some have been made. Instead of 2x4 construction, now 2X6 is the norm and better insulation. Better thermal windows are the norm. Higher efficiency furnaces. They all help, don't they, and we didn't have to change the quality of our lives, in fact, I would suggest our lives are better for it. And the environment won too.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 6tmile

It was never there.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06...e_not_melting/ Temperatures have been on the rise SINCE the last ice age,

Guess NASA, the National Science Foundation (NSF), the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) just don't know what they are talking about.

Have you even gone to the web site and looked at the research? Even the study that shows part of the Antarctic ice sheet has expanded, but as a whole, it is shrinking?

The National Snow and Ice Data Center is not some obscure opinion site, nor is it some NGO advocacy one. It only deals in facts.

It certainly is not a reporter who gets only half the story. Look through the research that is there, and tell me why you you think it is not valid?

You have access to all the raw data you want there. The satellite imagery is there.

Decide for yourself. But if your going to educate yourself, look at the studies themselves. Not some pro or anti website... those all have agendas and skew their perspectives. Al Gore and David Suzuki are no better than "whats up with that" site.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

Ego is a human trait and does not matter in the Earth`s history.

No, it sure doesn't. It is no more significant to the Earth than a pimple on an elephants arse.

The consequences of human ego have sure been nasty for humans, though. We seem to be unique in the animal kingdom.

[Digger1]

Global warming does not explain the increase in Antarctic ice

[SHORTMAG]

Originally Posted by avb3

In other words, like many others, you like to express an opinion, but when asked to point to facts... well, guess you just stick to your opinion.

After all, what can all that fancy scientific stuff like satellites and remote sensing do any ways. Gee, one would think those scientists had invented GPS or something. Of figured out infrared sensing.

Naaaaaaa.... couldn't be... they have an agenda.

I'd say that they'd puncture lots of holes in the protective O-ZONE layer ....that way they can let in more planet warming gamma, beta, UV and photon rays.(Jean-Luc Pickard)
The warming cycle will continue to go on just as the cooling off cycles have done so in the past.....been that way for millions of years.