Another Leaseholder Thread...

[Deer Hunter]

Respect is a two way street.

[dkalin]

Hay Score, I do have a lot of respect especially for those who deserve it , I don't like seeing rights taken away , and im sorry but not every ones way of thinking is the same , see if the lease holders get what they want they will do what they want and soon they will want more till they are in total control ,and they don't even own the land . see my way of thinking is right now is that its are land, but if we allow it we will loose are right to that land , and me nor anyone wants that,maybe you are a lease holder and like to be in control and are getting away with it and feel threatened when people stand up for what we feel is right, it would be nice if we all could beg to a person for permission that doesn't have the right to say so, wouldn't it ? I think leaseholders need some respect its our land they are leasing its a privilege for them.I totally respect the one who has purchased the land and who owns it , and allows us to hunt on there land and also respect the ones that wont allow hunting , it is there's not ours.

[pickrel pat]

i love how people say .....its our land...... really? tell the govt that all this crown land is yours. go ahead.... write a letter. lmao!

[Deer Hunter]

There is really no one standing up for resident hunters rights with respect to public lease land access, outfitting, draw allocations.
Even the SRD settlement officers are ranchers with leased land.
IMO the AFGA is becoming ineffective on enhancing resident hunting opportunities. Is there room for another organization? One thats sole purpose is to make sure that Alberta doesnt end up like Texas. If its not too late already.

[KegRiver]

This whole leaseholder issue is only systematic of the attitudes prevalent in today's hunting community.

Today I encountered that attitude front and centre.

The local people used to have no place where they could launch a boat, so they got together and developed a boat launch down at the park.

Today I drove down there to see if I could launch my boat today. Due to recent rains I wasn't sure the launch would be usable.
Well it would have been except for two things. Those two things were two pickups parked cross-ways across the launch. They were locked up with empty boat trailers attached. There was indications the owners were on the river hunting.

So no one can launch a boat at the launch WE developed, because those hunters decided they wanted the river all to themselves. And they have every right to do what they did in blocking OUR launch. They are not breaking any law. It IS public land, they can park anywhere they wish.

So even though there is an empty parking lot less then one hundred feet from where they did park, a parking lot that we also developed, they park in such a way as to totally block the only boat launch within fifty miles.

And people wonder why a lease holder would want to restrict access for people he does not know.

He paid the money, he built the roads, he cleared away the brush and trees and the probably made most of the watering holes and he placed the salt blocks, all of which makes that area much more attractive to wildlife and to hunters. Yet someone who did nothing to improve the hunting potential of that land and who paid nothing for the use of or access to that land thinks he should have as much or more rights then the lease holder.

People forget, they are not the only owners of that land. The leaseholder is as much an owner of that land as the rest of us are, except that he put considerable time and money into improving that land and we invested nothing.

Frankly, I am having serious doubts about the future of hunting.
If we can not be respectful AND understanding of others, how can we be respectful of the animals we hunt and the laws that govern us?

I honestly don't think that's possible. And from what I see on these threads, it sure doesn't work that way on these threads.

The level of disrespect so evident on these threads, toward our fellow hunters is astonishing at times.

What I am seeing is our hunting heritage being destroyed from inside.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

i love how people say .....its our land...... really? tell the govt that all this crown land is yours. go ahead.... write a letter. lmao!

You hit the nail on the head Pickrel Pat, There is too much of that going around. I agree write to the federal government and inquire about their so called land,,last I heard it still belongs to the queen or the natives not any individual, unless it was bought and paid for, Or a bunch of money dished out to the federal government or provincial government for the right to use it for what ever purpose. Hunting Crown lands is still a privildge not a right,, it goes the same for lease land its a priviledge not a right. All I have ever said if you want positive results you show the lease holders some respect or the landowners some respect and it might get you what you need if you dont move on there is millions of acres that has access if approached properly.

Here is another option,, do a title search in your name and see if your name is attached to any of the land you say is your lands that you feel you have the Right to hunt. If your names is on the title have at er.

However I think this thread has about run its course.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

This whole leaseholder issue is only systematic of the attitudes prevalent in today's hunting community.

Today I encountered that attitude front and centre.

The local people used to have no place where they could launch a boat, so they got together and developed a boat launch down at the park.

Today I drove down there to see if I could launch my boat today. Due to recent rains I wasn't sure the launch would be usable.
Well it would have been except for two things. Those two things were two pickups parked cross-ways across the launch. They were locked up with empty boat trailers attached. There was indications the owners were on the river hunting.

So no one can launch a boat at the launch WE developed, because those hunters decided they wanted the river all to themselves. And they have every right to do what they did in blocking OUR launch. They are not breaking any law. It IS public land, they can park anywhere they wish.

So even though there is an empty parking lot less then one hundred feet from where they did park, a parking lot that we also developed, they park in such a way as to totally block the only boat launch within fifty miles.

And people wonder why a lease holder would want to restrict access for people he does not know.

He paid the money, he built the roads, he cleared away the brush and trees and the probably made most of the watering holes and he placed the salt blocks, all of which makes that area much more attractive to wildlife and to hunters. Yet someone who did nothing to improve the hunting potential of that land and who paid nothing for the use of or access to that land thinks he should have as much or more rights then the lease holder.

People forget, they are not the only owners of that land. The leaseholder is as much an owner of that land as the rest of us are, except that he put considerable time and money into improving that land and we invested nothing.

Frankly, I am having serious doubts about the future of hunting.
If we can not be respectful AND understanding of others, how can we be respectful of the animals we hunt and the laws that govern us?

I honestly don't think that's possible. And from what I see on these threads, it sure doesn't work that way on these threads.

The level of disrespect so evident on these threads, toward our fellow hunters is astonishing at times.

What I am seeing is our hunting heritage being destroyed from inside.

Well Said Keg

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

He paid the money, he built the roads, he cleared away the brush and trees and the probably made most of the watering holes and he placed the salt blocks, all of which makes that area much more attractive to wildlife and to hunters. Yet someone who did nothing to improve the hunting potential of that land and who paid nothing for the use of or access to that land thinks he should have as much or more rights then the lease holder.
.

Lets not forget that the leaseholder does these things as a business, to make money.

Not to feed the deer or to make it easier for a hunter to drive in.

Hunting on public lands does very little to disrupt his business. If it does, than he should consider moving his business off a public resource. Im sure he wont, because grazing public lease lands is a very good business!!

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Well Said Keg

I'll second that...

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by sledhead71

i'll second that...

hear hear!

[score]

Originally Posted by dkalin

Hay Score, I do have a lot of respect especially for those who deserve it , I don't like seeing rights taken away , and im sorry but not every ones way of thinking is the same , see if the lease holders get what they want they will do what they want and soon they will want more till they are in total control ,and they don't even own the land . see my way of thinking is right now is that its are land, but if we allow it we will loose are right to that land , and me nor anyone wants that,maybe you are a lease holder and like to be in control and are getting away with it and feel threatened when people stand up for what we feel is right, it would be nice if we all could beg to a person for permission that doesn't have the right to say so, wouldn't it ? I think leaseholders need some respect its our land they are leasing its a privilege for them.I totally respect the one who has purchased the land and who owns it , and allows us to hunt on there land and also respect the ones that wont allow hunting , it is there's not ours.

kegriver and sunset have a handle on this. I am not trying to attack you. However, to me the land in question is irrelevant. As hunters we must act appropriate, and it is really easy actually, whether it is to eachother or it is carried out to present ourselves to a public that for the most part is against what we love to do. Our behavior in some ways can mitigate the publics general tunnel vision view of us just being killers. We must behave and conduct ourselves in such a way as to be portrayed as the stewards we claim ourselves to be. Any of that must include and begin with respect, even if it sometimes is contrary to what we may feel is not entirely right. There is a time and place for dealing with that, but it is certainly not when out hunting and getting into confrontations with lease holders.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Lets not forget that the leaseholder does these things as a business, to make money.

Not to feed the deer or to make it easier for a hunter to drive in.

Hunting on public lands does very little to disrupt his business. If it does, than he should consider moving his business off a public resource. Im sure he wont, because grazing public lease lands is a very good business!!

Are we still talking about agricultural lease land or have you migrated off on a different tangent?

Leaseholders take care of the leases to make money off of them, they are the stewards of the lease. They have an economic incentive to take care of and improve "your" property. Ever wonder why there are animals in certain areas? Ever think it maybe because a leaseholder/landowner has taken care of habitat and possibly created improved areas that allow the animals to thrive? Get over it.

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

This whole leaseholder issue is only systematic of the attitudes prevalent in today's hunting community.

Today I encountered that attitude front and centre.

The local people used to have no place where they could launch a boat, so they got together and developed a boat launch down at the park.

Today I drove down there to see if I could launch my boat today. Due to recent rains I wasn't sure the launch would be usable.
Well it would have been except for two things. Those two things were two pickups parked cross-ways across the launch. They were locked up with empty boat trailers attached. There was indications the owners were on the river hunting.

So no one can launch a boat at the launch WE developed, because those hunters decided they wanted the river all to themselves. And they have every right to do what they did in blocking OUR launch. They are not breaking any law. It IS public land, they can park anywhere they wish.

So even though there is an empty parking lot less then one hundred feet from where they did park, a parking lot that we also developed, they park in such a way as to totally block the only boat launch within fifty miles.

And people wonder why a lease holder would want to restrict access for people he does not know.

He paid the money, he built the roads, he cleared away the brush and trees and the probably made most of the watering holes and he placed the salt blocks, all of which makes that area much more attractive to wildlife and to hunters. Yet someone who did nothing to improve the hunting potential of that land and who paid nothing for the use of or access to that land thinks he should have as much or more rights then the lease holder.

People forget, they are not the only owners of that land. The leaseholder is as much an owner of that land as the rest of us are, except that he put considerable time and money into improving that land and we invested nothing.

Frankly, I am having serious doubts about the future of hunting.
If we can not be respectful AND understanding of others, how can we be respectful of the animals we hunt and the laws that govern us?

I honestly don't think that's possible. And from what I see on these threads, it sure doesn't work that way on these threads.

The level of disrespect so evident on these threads, toward our fellow hunters is astonishing at times.

What I am seeing is our hunting heritage being destroyed from inside.

i can totally see it. people in our area with jetboats are holier than thou......big name, money.... not jelous.... just the way it is in manning. and not all jetboaters are like that, but in manning comunity it is prevailant. big names,.......lol.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Are we still talking about agricultural lease land or have you migrated off on a different tangent?

Leaseholders take care of the leases to make money off of them, they are the stewards of the lease. They have an economic incentive to take care of and improve "your" property. Ever wonder why there are animals in certain areas? Ever think it maybe because a leaseholder/landowner has taken care of habitat and possibly created improved areas that allow the animals to thrive? Get over it.

Im talking about a grazing lease. This is one example of public land. I agree that it is in their contract to maintain the lease but sometime that isnt done very well either.
Im sure they have somewhere sometime enhanced the habitat for wildlife.

You get over it.

Here is a fence that your "stewards" are looking after on a public grazing lease.

[dkalin]

well it should be simplified so there is none of this going on , if you lease land have your cattle out at a certain time of year and that's that, you should have no more say ,if you put a salt block or water hole there o well your loss for cheep grazing it ant yours, like grazing reserves if you don't want to deal with the fact you have no say go buy some land so you do. There wouldn't be no issues if you could look past the fact you don't own it , all this respect crap is coming from you people that have leased land and want all the rights to it, unreal ,no respect over and over , im sure its not the real farmer that has all the issues with the leased land, its the person that's leasing it for other purposes that has the problem with it.We aren't all being negative like some of you think ,its loosing rights cause we aren't as respectful as you none land owners want us to be is the problem , its your way to try and secure something that ant yours , we all have a right to it.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Lets not forget that the leaseholder does these things as a business, to make money.

Not to feed the deer or to make it easier for a hunter to drive in.

Hunting on public lands does very little to disrupt his business. If it does, than he should consider moving his business off a public resource. Im sure he wont, because grazing public lease lands is a very good business!!

That is right, to him it's a business. Or in other words, it's his livelihood.
But to you it's just recreation. Unless of course you are an outfitter in which case it would be a business to you as well.

So, are you saying that your recreation is more important then his livelihood? Remember, you are joint owners, but he paid for additional rights.

I agree, the lease holder did not make improvements for the sake of wildlife or for you, yet you get to reap the benefits of his input.

And all he gets in return is what he paid for and a mess to clean up after the hunters leave.

I'm sure that from your point of view, the cut fences, the rutted roads, the dead cows doesn't disrupt business much. But I wonder how you'd feel if it was your lease, your roads, your fences, your cattle.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by dkalin

if you don't want to deal with the fact you have no say go buy some land so you do.

In the end that is exactly what will happen.

And what land do you think they will buy? The Walmart parking lot?


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the land they will buy will have to come from the crown land out there. And what better crown land for grazing then a grazing lease that the lease holder was forced to give up.

It sure isn't going to be some muskeg so far of the beaten path that no one ever goes there.

Or do you imagine that they will just buy the grain farmers land and turn it into pasture? What then prey tell will the grain farmer do for land.
Buy an abandoned grazing lease perhaps.

The population of the world is growing and with it, the demand for land to grow food on. That would be farms, ranches, orchards and the like.

We can learn to share or we can see it sold. And in the end who gets to pay for the buying of that land.

That my friend would be you and I, through higher food prices.



Yes, ranchers lease land because it is cheaper then buying, and that cheap land keeps beef prices down.

Yes he could go out of business. That would result in fewer beef cattle being raised and that would push beef prices up. Or he could buy more land and there would be less land for us to hunt on.


In the end, your line of reasoning can lead to only one destination. Higher food costs and less access for all of us.

[Brock1]

I hunt in the n. central and n. west. Last year was the first time that I involved the law because of how ridiculous it was.

quick story.
I go online to see the phone #s, access rules etc... He has 27 quarters on the n side of the hiway, 18 on the s. Several have had the same fencing half started for 4 years now.

Can't find the description or access info anywhere.

Call 411, get his #.

Call him. hes not home. His wife is a wonderful lady who discloses that he doesn't give anyone access to the leases except family. She reports that he has built his own huge hunting paradise for Elk, moose bears and Deer.

She even says it is ridiculous because there are so many DAMN elk there and they have had to spend thousands on fencing their bales in on thier woned land.

She says here is his cell # good luck.

I phone him. I tell him I would like to hunt 4 of the quarters accessible by road, no livestock on any of them.

He tells me him and his nephew will be hunting those quarters this week.
So I said I will go on the bordering quarters.

He tells me to go buy my own F ing land if I want to hunt or go on public land.

Remember at this point I have done more than legally neccesary to get ahold of the lease holder.....

Now I inform him it is public land and since he is being disrespectful, I will now be calling the county and f and w.

He tells me that he is a big man and if he sees me near there, on HIS land, that I will regret it for the rest of my life.

I thank him for being so ridiculous and inform him that I look forward to our first meeting and call the county officer.

That afternoon I got a phone call with an apology and a letter from the county emailed to me that my hunting party has full access to his leases.

This year, I go back and he has locked and gated all 4 of the quarters I hunted and still has no livestock on them.

These quarters are the only access to a huge chunk of non lease crown, other than the river.

I go online, still no phone number or restrictions, and all of the 20 plus quarters of lease land accessible from the road are now posted.

Unreal.

Now honestly, I drive 25 miles n w of there and find a bunch of elk.
different landowner/leaseholder.

Almost exact same story, except he has a family member who is an outfitter!!
Who has a key for all of the gates on the 20 plus quarters he has..

I have had enough..

his own hunting paradise, seriously.

He should be charged criminally.

The officer who dealt with me said that I somehow found the 2 most difficult landowners in the bordering counties.

I said NO, I just went and asked where I found plentiful game on non-private land.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

That is right, to him it's a business. Or in other words, it's his livelihood.
But to you it's just recreation. Unless of course you are an outfitter in which case it would be a business to you as well.

So, are you saying that your recreation is more important then his livelihood? Remember, you are joint owners, but he paid for additional rights.

I agree, the lease holder did not make improvements for the sake of wildlife or for you, yet you get to reap the benefits of his input.

And all he gets in return is what he paid for and a mess to clean up after the hunters leave.

I'm sure that from your point of view, the cut fences, the rutted roads, the dead cows doesn't disrupt business much. But I wonder how you'd feel if it was your lease, your roads, your fences, your cattle.

You have a really bad view of hunters apparently. Dead cows, ruts and garbage... Anything else you want to blame on hunters?? Seems almost too easy.
Hunters just want fair access, they won't complain about cow sh!t, cow trails or opening a gate. Feeding cows and hunting really have no affect on each other. But the government and some leaseholders believe that the two cannot coexist

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Im talking about a grazing lease. This is one example of public land. I agree that it is in their contract to maintain the lease but sometime that isnt done very well either.
Im sure they have somewhere sometime enhanced the habitat for wildlife.

You get over it.

Here is a fence that your "stewards" are looking after on a public grazing lease.

Looks like good grass management to me. Lots of tall stuff left to protect the soil and provide habitat for small animals, and feed for larger one. No visible weed infestations.

If you need to deal with the fence, you are probably the type that has the lease police on speed dial. Give them a call, get it dealt with.

Only one question. If leaseholders won't grant permission to access, how did you get that picture? I guess I'll take your word that it is actually lease land.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Looks like good grass management to me. Lots of tall stuff left to protect the soil and provide habitat for small animals, and feed for larger one. No visible weed infestations.


Only one question. If leaseholders won't grant permission to access, how did you get that picture? I guess I'll take your word that it is actually lease land.

Agreed,the grass is nice. It's native prairie.

I tresspassed on public land to get the picture a few years back.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Agreed,the grass is nice. It's native prairie.

I tresspassed on public land to get the picture a few years back.

If you were trespassing anyway, why have you been whining about getting permission. It obviously doesn't matter to you.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You have a really bad view of hunters apparently. Dead cows, ruts and garbage... Anything else you want to blame on hunters?? Seems almost too easy.
Hunters just want fair access, they won't complain about cow sh!t, cow trails or opening a gate. Feeding cows and hunting really have no affect on each other. But the government and some leaseholders believe that the two cannot coexist

You may have missed it, but I am a hunter. And a trapper, and a fisherman.
And I have been for a long time.

I admit I do have a bad attitude, , , , , toward slob hunters and poachers. And you should too.
The fact that you are defending them, or attempting to, concerns me.
We NEED to oppose them at every opportunity.

[magcal4L]

100% agree get the cows out we want to use our crown land

[pikergolf]

I go online, still no phone number or restrictions, and all of the 20 plus quarters of lease land accessible from the road are now posted.

Before going onto the land, the recreational user must get in touch with the person leaseholders have named as the contact person for the grazing or farm development lease. If this information is not provided, the recreational user can come on the land without contacting the leaseholder.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You may have missed it, but I am a hunter. And a trapper, and a fisherman.
And I have been for a long time.

I admit I do have a bad attitude, , , , , toward slob hunters and poachers. And you should too.
The fact that you are defending them, or attempting to, concerns me.
We NEED to oppose them at every opportunity.

Keg the unfortunate part is they will never get it My friend. Its like beating a dead horse. The still think they are entitled to it and it is their Right, with out any hardship or dollars out of pocket. Figure they dont have to mend a fence,, but cut one when it suits them its the same ole same ole bs.

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Im talking about a grazing lease. This is one example of public land. I agree that it is in their contract to maintain the lease but sometime that isnt done very well either.
Im sure they have somewhere sometime enhanced the habitat for wildlife.

You get over it.

Here is a fence that your "stewards" are looking after on a public grazing lease.

maybe you shoulda Got your fence'n plires and your stretchers and knocked that fence up good instead of complaining about the shape on the fence on your so called land. Be a good Landowner Make sure your fences are in good shape for the neighbours or for other hunters that feel they need to go through it with their leatherman or fence'n pliers.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Keg the unfortunate part is they will never get it My friend. Its like beating a dead horse. The still think they are entitled to it and it is their Right, with out any hardship or dollars out of pocket. Figure they dont have to mend a fence,, but cut one when it suits them its the same ole same ole bs.

I know it is beating a dead horse with some individuals. But for others and especially for beginning hunters, it needs to be said.

Not all hunters see the situation like these few do.
Many like myself can see the lease holders point of view as well.

I am not a rancher and I have never held a lease to anything. But I have friends and relatives who do ranch and do hold leases.

I have seen the garbage and the ruts and I have seen ranchers pick up that garbage and fill those ruts and then welcome the next hunter onto their land and their leases. I've seen them do it time after time until eventually they just give up and lock the gates on everyone they don't know.

New hunters need to know that there is a good reason that many ranchers don't want hunters they don't know on their leased land.
And they need to know that respect and understanding will open gates that may otherwise never open.


One must also realize that the real abusers will not change just because the law say they are wrong. That goes for hunters as well as for lease holders.
Both will simply find a way around the law. And more laws will be written and they will find ways around them as well. And the rest of us will loose once again.

It needs to be said.

[Deer Hunter]

What needs to be said is that the days of abusing and manipluting a public resource for the benefit of your business need to come to an end. Blaming a rut in the mud, a down fence or a supposed shot cow on "hunters" is disgusting slight against your own fellow sportsman.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I go online, still no phone number or restrictions, and all of the 20 plus quarters of lease land accessible from the road are now posted.

Before going onto the land, the recreational user must get in touch with the person leaseholders have named as the contact person for the grazing or farm development lease. If this information is not provided, the recreational user can come on the land without contacting the leaseholder.

I stated in my post That I had gone above what was needed to access by law.

I was simply trying to avoid any conflict so i would be welcome back