This is what OHV users need to address...

[Sooner]

How about enforcement in the woods and education at the dealers who sell the stuff of the rules. I'm a user(99% in the hunting season) and don't like where this is headed. I will be forced off my atv or at least see restricted use because of the rip and tear I don't care crowd.

[HalfBreed]

Originally Posted by Sooner

How about enforcement in the woods and education at the dealers who sell the stuff of the rules. I'm a user(99% in the hunting season) and don't like where this is headed. I will be forced off my atv or at least see restricted use because of the rip and tear I don't care crowd.

Start carrying a joust. That will show the crowd you don't like.

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

This is always a tough one because all those who oppose it are out numbered.
I would assume 10 to 1 judging by the average amount of people I see using the back country. And I don't see our government opposing an extra 100 million made from this type of recreational past time. That's not to say I don't think the under dog can't win and wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least if they made a mandatory trail system or only allow those hunting venture ofF the trails. Just my own statistical view of what I have seen

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by avb3

As usual, it is the few that paint all the same, however, in public policy, perception is reality.

I have been enjoying the backcountry responsibly with 4x4's, quads, dirt bikes, horses and on foot for most of my life. I really get sick of hearing that it is just a few irresponsible users ruining it for everyone else. That is not the case anymore, if you believe it is the minority causing issues and tearing the sh!t out of everything in our backcountry, you would be dead wrong.

That might have been the case 20-30 years ago but now it is the majority causing the destruction. If it was the minority of OHV users causing destruction in our backcountry we wouldn't be in the position we are today.

We still own 4x4's, horses, quads, a dirt bike and a snowmobile. With the destruction I have personally witnessed over the past 30 years on our eastern slopes, something has to change IMO.

I have spent my time with local organizations trying to come up with a solution and educate people on responsible backcountry use(trust me, I put some serious time in). I did my part until I finally realized it was a losing battle, no one cares anymore... In this day and age, with a massive influx of people to our province, the irresponsible users will always outweigh the responsible ones. I have witnessed it with my own eyes many times. Prove me wrong.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Attachment 118363

Ruff neighbourhood there Rugsssy!

[58thecat]

As with all laws laid down upon the people it was because of the wankers that the rest of us had to pay for.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Guess what. There will always be people that use "things" the wrong way or in a disrespectful manner. And what some people think is disrespectful, others don't. I don't particularly care for the guy with the loud pipes driving past my house, the guy that doesn't pick his dog crap up off my lawn, or the 200 dollar generator at the campsite, or the guy that drives drunk or shoots up signs.

Until you have the government watching our every move crap like this is going to happen. So punish everyone? We'll all be sitting in our houses 24/7. I don't blame all hunters for shooting up signs, and I don't blame all drivers for driving drunk.

Expecting a community to "self-police" one sport to the point of zero incidents is incredibly hypocritical and childish.

It's the typical "I don't have one, I don't like them, so I hope everyone else loses the right to use them."

X2. Very well said.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Guess what. There will always be people that use "things" the wrong way or in a disrespectful manner. And what some people think is disrespectful, others don't. I don't particularly care for the guy with the loud pipes driving past my house, the guy that doesn't pick his dog crap up off my lawn, or the 200 dollar generator at the campsite, or the guy that drives drunk or shoots up signs.

Until you have the government watching our every move crap like this is going to happen. So punish everyone? We'll all be sitting in our houses 24/7. I don't blame all hunters for shooting up signs, and I don't blame all drivers for driving drunk.

Expecting a community to "self-police" one sport to the point of zero incidents is incredibly hypocritical and childish.

It's the typical "I don't have one, I don't like them, so I hope everyone else loses the right to use them."

x3
What many don't seem to get is that there are lots of people out there that feel the 'great outdoors' should be left alone...PERIOD.
No camping, fishing, hunting....nothing.
Yes, we could definitely do a better job of self policing ourselves...but it's like the attitude with firearms owners..."I hunt but I don't see the need for anyone to have a handgun".
If we don't stop giving each other up to save our little piece of the pie we'll lose it all.

[artie]

We need more organizations like the Crowsnest Pass Quad Squad that build bridges and look after the trails. They raffle a quad off every year to gain funds for their trail projects. With more organizations like that it can work.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Expecting a community to "self-police" one sport to the point of zero incidents is incredibly hypocritical and childish.

It's the typical "I don't have one, I don't like them, so I hope everyone else loses the right to use them."

I don't think people are hoping to take anything away from anyone, people are hoping to stop the abuse.

People need to self police or government will, like it or not.

All you have to do is look at the machines they are selling, their intended purpose is quite obvious. That purpose isn't a quiet Sunday nature ride, it is ripping and tearing ......as advertised and that is why most are purchased, to rip and tear. These are the new majority of users.

[fitzy]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I don't think people are hoping to take anything away from anyone, people are hoping to stop the abuse.

People need to self police or government will, like it or not.

All you have to do is look at the machines they are selling, their intended purpose is quite obvious. That purpose isn't a quiet Sunday nature ride, it is ripping and tearing ......as advertised and that is why most are purchased, to rip and tear. These are the new majority of users.

You don't have 30" lugged tires and a snorkel kit to not get deep in the mud. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate it but I've seen how a trail that is years old driven on by stock tires gets destroyed in a year with lugged tires. Watched it at work and along fence lines at my in laws.

Just like the gun argument. There's no bad guys just different opinions that unless we can get over will result in us walking around with sling shots.

[bat119]

I like riding my quads through the trails, I have seen see damage done by the big snorkled quads and side by sides with loud mufflers. It's unfortunate these people living for the moment don't see the long term damage they are doing. When quading I take my empty trailer with me, the grand kids and I pick up trash along the trails helps to teach them young not to litter. The variety of garbage is quite amazing everything from sardine cans to oil drums.

Just a matter of time before the ban everything crowd starts passing laws

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by ^v^Tinda wolf^v^

Here is a video link to the new back country if things aren't changed soon. I have a friend who has the blue prints and tubing ordered to build a machine almost identical to the one in this video. All the Atv, sxs 4x4 is really small in comparison to what's about to be the next big thing.

Along with the industry evolving and getting bigger, comes this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzXVLbs41Ew&sns=em

There are width restrictions for trails. Those would only be allowed on truck trails. Some SBS's are already too big for quad trails. IIRC, these modified, widened ones don't fit within the mandatory width to be on quad trails, but you see them all the time..

And yes, these new tube buggies are not needed. It's becoming big in the states, but thankfully our slumping economy will likely put an end to a very expensive machine.

Floatation tires were implemented when OHV's first came out. I'd be all for controlling tire size and thread depth.

This would be for ATV, 4x4, and could also apply to dirt bikes. Trials tires are great to ride on and produce less damage. I've rode with them for years. Would I want to see trails tires implemented? Maybe not, but if it keeps trails open I would have no issues going back to running one full time.


I also think dealerships shouldn't be selling quads and SBS's with factory snorkel kits. There is no reason a quad should have a snorkel kit here. If the puddle is that deep, get out the shovels and improve drainage. Rivers and lakes are to be avoided.

We need to look at states that have already gone through this for direction on how and where to head. Idaho, Utah, Colorado. Why try to blaze our own direction when these states have already been through these troubles, resolved most issues, and now have a booming tourist industry due to their openness, and control over OHV use in the state?

[Walleyedude]

This is what OHV users need to address...

I told myself I was staying out of this, but I have to address the title and the OP's crusade.

I do get it, believe me I do, I've spent a lot of time as part of OHV group working to improve our trails and maintain access. OHV users are their own worst enemy in most cases. Better education and more time spent on maintaining riding areas rather than simply using/abusing them would go a long way. Some more foresight and responsibility on the part of the manufacturer's in the type and design of OHVs they're marketing would also go a long way.

That being said, I don't see any other area of society or order of law where the user group alone must "self police" in order to survive. It's a ridiculous notion. What if theft or murder was left to the same principle? Firstly, it would result in chaos, and secondly it would be COMPLETELY ineffective at both enforcing the laws and preventing theft and murder. How is OHV use any different?

There are laws in place that regulate how, where, and when OHVs can be legally operated. If those laws were properly enforced in the same manner as all other laws are enforced, there would be no issues.

[sjd]

Agree that self policing is not the way to go, but I would like groups like AFGA and OHV Clubs to show which side they are on, and be a bit more proactive on stand up for protection of our environment.

For a start - how about a AFGA resolution about changing Report a Poacher to Report a Poacher and Polluter and really start to condition folks that these abuses are on par with poaching and have zero tolerance in our community.

Lobbying for $100,000 maximum fines like in BC would be a good addition too.

[andyhall]

I also agree that self policing is the way to go. If you are not following the law you should be turned in. We have hotlines like report a poacher and they work. And again the tree huggers moan an complain about recreational users , but we users pay for insurance and licencing every year, what do they pay? they stand and cry with their hands out for donations

[Red Bullets]

One solution would be to only sell back country quads that are geared down so their tires won't spin and they can't go over 5 miles an hour. They could still quad but no rip and tear. Aren't quad riders supposedly wanting to experience the outdoors and not just blow by them at top speed?

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

One solution would be to only sell back country quads that are geared down so their tires won't spin and they can't go over 5 miles an hour. They could still quad but no rip and tear. Aren't quad riders supposedly wanting to experience the outdoors and not just blow by them at top speed?

While outdoor enjoyment is part of the reason people do it, some do it for exercise, challenge, and thrill. Races and race training happens. These are valid sports. On sustainable trails with maintenance this generally is not an issue.

Riders need to stay on trail. Even if damaged. Damage can be repaired, massive areas of damage make it more difficult. DO NOT RIDE A TRAIL OVER YOUR ABILITY! This is an ever increasing problem.

Originally Posted by sjd

Agree that self policing is not the way to go, but I would like groups like AFGA and OHV Clubs to show which side they are on, and be a bit more proactive on stand up for protection of our environment.

For a start - how about a AFGA resolution about changing Report a Poacher to Report a Poacher and Polluter and really start to condition folks that these abuses are on par with poaching and have zero tolerance in our community.

Lobbying for $100,000 maximum fines like in BC would be a good addition too.

Clubs are doing a lot of work with volunteer hours to maintain, teach, and somewhat enforce users. As with most things, it's a minority causing the issue and the clubs know and try to correct this issue. Often funding can be a problem due to engineered bridges and heavy equipment work (helicopter time) is very expensive. ~1500$/hr. Repair locations are often remote and much of this equipment is flown in.

Smaller scale bridges are made with surrounding materials (downed trees) and materials back-packed into location. 5-7 guys can build a small span bridge in 2.5-5 hours.

[TROLLER]

Most all OHV riders I have encountered are good respectful of the area people. One thing that has changed quite a bit over the years is the size of the ATV

The Rhino was a large 2 seater that now is a baby compared to what is running around. The bigger the machine the heavier so they tend to dig in a little deeper than a quad. Some riders think they have not had a good day unless they and their machine is covered in mud.

That is the mentality and until that changes we will have to deal with the consequences sooner rather than later.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Quinn

There are width restrictions for trails. Those would only be allowed on truck trails. Some SBS's are already too big for quad trails. IIRC, these modified, widened ones don't fit within the mandatory width to be on quad trails, but you see them all the time..

And yes, these new tube buggies are not needed. It's becoming big in the states, but thankfully our slumping economy will likely put an end to a very expensive machine.

Floatation tires were implemented when OHV's first came out. I'd be all for controlling tire size and thread depth.

This would be for ATV, 4x4, and could also apply to dirt bikes. Trials tires are great to ride on and produce less damage. I've rode with them for years. Would I want to see trails tires implemented? Maybe not, but if it keeps trails open I would have no issues going back to running one full time.


I also think dealerships shouldn't be selling quads and SBS's with factory snorkel kits. There is no reason a quad should have a snorkel kit here. If the puddle is that deep, get out the shovels and improve drainage. Rivers and lakes are to be avoided.

We need to look at states that have already gone through this for direction on how and where to head. Idaho, Utah, Colorado. Why try to blaze our own direction when these states have already been through these troubles, resolved most issues, and now have a booming tourist industry due to their openness, and control over OHV use in the state?

Tire size and tread depth?? Then you would conceivable have twice the spinning and have to hit stuff harder to get through. What is the point of having an all terrain machine that can't go anywhere?

There are places where people can rip and tear to their hearts content. Designated trails full of mud and holes. In many places you don't (can't) go very far without a trail that's been cut.

There's a not so fine line between conservatism and being some puritanical old ladies about this.

Most of the people that post that Facebook crap, cherry pick and pay no attention to the groups who go out and clean up the back country. Most of those basket weavers you won't even see back there. Never mind cleaning up.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by lead chucker

That's it buddy.keep that attitude and we'll all be out one group at a time. .....we all need to ban together weather we like it or not.

Fixed it for you!

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by ^v^Tinda wolf^v^

Here is a video link to the new back country if things aren't changed soon. I have a friend who has the blue prints and tubing ordered to build a machine almost identical to the one in this video. All the Atv, sxs 4x4 is really small in comparison to what's about to be the next big thing.

Along with the industry evolving and getting bigger, comes this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzXVLbs41Ew&sns=em

That's pretty cool. Now just to dig up $60 000 out of the chesterfield cushions...

Never mind that most of this goes on in off road parks or designated areas. They probably do more for conserving natural areas, too.

Lots of videos on this and I must confess, I have never thought about how much they are damaging rocks and bare dirt slopes.

[rugatika]

The problem isn't the equipment it's the users. The 20 somethings. So the answer is simple. Ban anyone under 30 (maybe 35 or 40 even...I'm still safe) from being out in public except for work. This works great for me since I'm over 30 (and 35 and 40 too). This is the age group doing the littering and the sign shooting too. And most of the drunk driving as well. Done and done...problem solved, you're welcome!!

Maybe there is something to this banning. Wonder what else we could ban?

[darren32]

I used to spend a lot of time dirtbiking in Waiparous / McClain creek and all the way down to the crowsnest pass. Have not been there is about 20 years but from the pictures it looks exactly the same as it did 20 years ago!

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Wolfslayer

My biggest issue with the quads is they seem to show no respect to others. Have yet to have a good experience with one.

Although I disagree with this statement I have to say, motor sports do seem to have way larger percentage of jerks than just about any other demographic I can think of. The old "Its the few bad ones giving us all a bad name" argument might have some merit but I think even the most responsible of users would have to admit that its not exactly so few as one would like.

The other fact that must be faced is that motorsports are by nature, a destructive activity, look at all the most popular ATV locations and the landscape has been destroyed for almost any other type of recreational use. I can think of no other user group of our crown land that has this effect. The day they ban ATV use on public land I will cheerfully burn my quad to the ground.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by rugatika

The problem isn't the equipment it's the users. The 20 somethings. So the answer is simple. Ban anyone under 30 (maybe 35 or 40 even...I'm still safe) from being out in public except for work. This works great for me since I'm over 30 (and 35 and 40 too). This is the age group doing the littering and the sign shooting too. And most of the drunk driving as well. Done and done...problem solved, you're welcome!!

Maybe there is something to this banning. Wonder what else we could ban?

Great idea Rug! Maybe under 35, and I would have to keep my ID on me.

How about a Central Registry of All things that can Puncture or be Sharp (CRAPS) and storage facilities? If you want to use one of your kitchen knives, chain saw, ATV, gun etc. go sign it out with a letter of intended use and where said use will occur. Then deal with colouring outside the lines with extreme prejudice! We will need more cameras.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by L Maclederry

all the whiners about ATV damage should hop in a plane at Grand Prairie and fly south as far as you want. Take a sick bag with you. The watershed is destroyed everywhere there is clear-cutting. Creeks and rivers now run mud after a rain, there is nothing to stop the water from running off left. I've seen it before and after and there is no doubt.

Yeah, I know the area of what you speak, its pretty sad out there. Slave lake/ Swan Hills area is close on its heels, nearly every creek and river flowing into Slave Lake is developing a large bar of silt at its mouth, the grayling are getting pretty scarce. When I first moved north I couldn't have imagined the landscape could change this much. I find it highly depressing.

I wonder what the mills have in mind once they've logged every last usable stick of softwood? Plenty of poplar still out there so pulp and OSB will be fine for awhile but one really has to wonder if Plywood and lumber has any sort of long term plan at all?

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by L Maclederry

all the whiners about ATV damage should hop in a plane at Grand Prairie and fly south as far as you want. Take a sick bag with you. The watershed is destroyed everywhere there is clear-cutting. Creeks and rivers now run mud after a rain, there is nothing to stop the water from running off left. I've seen it before and after and there is no doubt.

So basically you're saying...'industry does so leave me alone'.
Yeah!

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

Aren't quad riders supposedly wanting to experience the outdoors and not just blow by them at top speed?

No most are not out for any sort of wilderness experience. They could care less where they are, they would be just as happy riping around on the scrap concrete pile at Lafarge in west Edmonton or on the abandoned strip mines at Genessee and places like this, they only go out in the 'wilderness' because they are not allowed to rip and tear handier to the city.. The govt should use land like these mine sites and reclaim them for recreation purposes to make some awesome challenging areas for the quadders/bikers to go nutz on and keep them out of the woods and generate further revenue for the gov't. Could make some awesome gun ranges near the city on some of these properties that are leased by the crown to these corporations that they are done mining and sitting vacant and nobody is allowed to use them. They could be used to make wonderful campgrounds, fish ponds/lakes could be made, golf courses, equestern, hiking, bike paths, all sorts of outdoor recreation opportunities could be made available for next to nothing if the equipment used to mine the ground were required to place their tailings stragetically. There are massive amounts of land right on the Cities doorstep that could be used for recreation at mimimal cost to the taxpayer and take some of the pressure off of our wild places.

[Yaha Tinda]

......All you have to do is look at the machines they are selling, their intended purpose is quite obvious. That purpose isn't a quiet Sunday nature ride, it is ripping and tearing ......as advertised and that is why most are purchased, to rip and tear. These are the new majority of users.

Distraction, smoke and mirrors, ignorance, puppeteering. Many who object are blissfully unaware of what is really happening out there.