GSP, GWP, or Lab

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by RyanGSP

Jamie are you wanting to put Bear down against Diego? If not you have no ground to stand on.

Just becouse I dont own the New england patriots doesnt mean I cant bet on the outcome of a game

I know a fellow with a few top notch dogs (labs) who might be up for a challenge... If you are interested I could see what I could do.

But I will tell you this.. Its not going to come cheaply. I would guess he would want to play for some good cash.

If you or your dog isnt up for something like this, just say so.

Jamie

[Cordur]

About the price of the Pudelpointers from Cedarwoods. I just received an e-mail from them after making an inquiry and the price listed is $1000 for a pup. Don't doubt that your friend got one for $500 from them, but is there something that I'm missing? Planning to put my name on the waiting list for one.

[Versatile]

Cordur he didnt get his PP from Bob but it was a dog from Bobs line. I wish you all the luck with your new PP. You wont be disapointed, how can you the darn things are 2/3s EP and 1/3 German Poodle.

Jamie is this friend of yours Monte down in Ring Neck Kennels? If so will his dogs back my pointer, without him blasting his whistle to make them sit? If so bring him on down but its for bragging rights not money.

[AndersonSkiTeam]

I am glad I do not need to make my decision right now as I have changed my mind 10 times today. For some strange reason it is always harder for me to choose when there isn't a wrong choice.

I have hunted with labs a fair bit so I am hoping some time over the GSP this fall will help make up my mind. The owner of the GSP has spent about as much time training their GSP as I did my lab so it will also give me an idea of what that limited training time translates into dog ability in the field. I am sure I would prefer Ryan's GSP but realistically I will never have my dog trained that well.

I got my last lab from GoldWingKennels and she was one of the smaller wirey females that thought she was the alpha dog. Great dog, but I as an owner and 1st time trainer caused occasional confusion. Dog was still smart enough to still figure out what I wanted. Training my own dog was one of the most satisfying and rewarding things I have done outside of raising my own kids. Can't wait to do it again and learn from my 1st timer mistakes and add a few levels of difficulty to the regimen.

I have spent the last 4 hours on the net looking at dogs and kennels so I had better get to bed. I don't think my wife believes me that I am actually researching dogs at 1:30 in the morning so I better save my search history.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by RyanGSP

Jamie is this friend of yours Monte down in Ring Neck Kennels? If so will his dogs back my pointer, without him blasting his whistle to make them sit? If so bring him on down but its for bragging rights not money.

It might be him.. But then it might not be..
I have a few irons in the fire.. Some of them read this board. And some of them actually have seen you and your dog work.
Unfortunatly for you, this is a cash game.

Hey I dont blame you. your young, and I am sure you dont have a lot of extra cash lying around. And I am sure you would hate to put that dog of your up for grabs. (Serriously).


Anderson..
I can understand your problem. I did the exact same thing for a few years.
Good luck with your decision.

Jamie

[Versatile]

Sorry Jamie I will not be putting my dog up for grabs. Would you put your son up for grabs in a bet? No I wouldnt think so.

Once again bring your buddy on down but make sure that lab will back my pointer because if not I am walking away.

[Dark]

Please feel free to say how much you love your dog but please don't hijack my thread with how awsome your breed is and all others suck. If you want to have that conversation there are numerous old threads you can go and read and add to.[/QUOTE]

Some guy's always have to compare peckers

[Spellow]

I've been bird hunting and training dogs for over 25 years and if I have learned one thing about subjects like this, it is that dog handlers invariably stick to what they know. Everyone has their love for whatever variety of dog they like to shoot over...and 80% of the time, your first love is the one you stick with. Most of the time (and I know of several kennels/breeders that are exceptions to this rule) labs are flushing dogs where pointers and setters are obviously pointing dogs. They represent two opposite styles of hunting...

Hunting a pointer represents a more casual and relaxed form of hunting where your dog can range way out of gun range until coming up on point and waiting for you to do your part...hunting a flushing dog is more upbeat and you have to be on the ball, constantly reading your dog and making sure that he /she stays within comfortable shotgun range.

My father was a professional gundog trainer who trained both pointing and flushing dogs and I had the pleasure of watching both methods over the years...and I honestly don't know which I would call better as they are like comparing apples to oranges.

I think when you are looking to find your ideal gundog that is both good for hunting and for family life...sit down and look at the style of hunting you prefer, the type of cover you like to hunt in, and definately research the breeders/kennels that you are considering purchasing a dog from...go see the parents work and spend some time with the breeders. Any breeder worth their salt breeds for temperment and healthy genes as well as for ability.

Do a little research and figure out what suits you...IMHO.

[Setterman]

Good luck in your hunt for a bird dog. I remember when I had finally graduated University and was able to get my first dog. I did tonnes of research. My dad ran beagles and my Grandpa breed and trialed Chessies, he actually died of a heart attack at a field trial. I do a lot of hunting and finally decided to go with a continetal breed. I choose the GWP and she is a great dog. Very loyal and awesome in the house. There are times when she has been a bit sharp and she absolutly hates cats. After hunting with her for a couple of years for both waterfowl and upland I realized how much more upland hunting I was doing compared to waterfowl. I justed loved when the dog would point. I stared doing less and less waterfowl hunting and limited it to only field shoots. Because of this I decide to get a upland specialist and settled on an English Setter. I was not disapointed. If you are interested take a peek at this website settersunlimited.com some really good breeders. Also don't be afraid of field trial lines - they produce some awesome hunting dogs for the foot hunter. Have fun and keep us updated on your progress. SM

[Spellow]

I completely agree with Setterman...alot of people think "field trial" and run the other way. I personally train and hunt with field bred English Springer Spaniels (not because I feel they are the best breed, but simply because that is what I know), and if I am interested in getting a new one, I head to a trial. Trials are not everyone's cup of tea, but they allow for anyone to go and see a variety of different dogs, how the dog's interract with other dogs and with people, basically allowing to see what you are buying...and if you just quietly observe, you don't have to deal with someone telling you what may not be true about their dogs. I'm not even an avid trialler, but I attend four or five a year just for fun. I hunt both upland and migratory and am fortunate to have bloodlines that were carried on from my father's breeding program.

Most reputable breeders nowadays include stats regarding retinal exams, hip dysplasia, etc...nothing is worse to me than getting a new pup, putting all that time and effort into training and socializing it, having your family get attached to it, then discovering here is something wrong genetically with the dog (such as hip dysplasia) and then having to have the dog replaced...things happen obviously, but a little bit of research and patience can go along way.

Spellow

[Spellow]

For those interested, one of the future goals for the Tri-County Gundog Association is to run a Battle of the Breeds competition for gundogs, hopefully as soon as next spring/summer...but its for fun and prizes, not ownerships of other guys' dogs...heh.

Spellow

[Versatile]

Spellow you got more info on that?

Jamie is just trying to get his hands on a real hunting dog that is able to put birds in the bag with the least amount of work on his part possible.

[Spellow]

Originally Posted by RyanGSP

Spellow you got more info on that?

Jamie is just trying to get his hands on a real hunting dog that is able to put birds in the bag with the least amount of work on his part possible.

Ryan,

I'm still trying to work out kinks on the details (and have consulted with springer, pointer, and retriever judges for insight), but basically it will be a competition that competes spaniel, against retriever, against pointer. It will be run on partridge and pheasant and handlers will do their own shooting. Competition will be based on a team score based on dog performance and handler's marksmanship/sportsmanship...

My main glitch has been trying to figure out how to compete flushing breeds against pointing breeds...unless it is made out to be a timed event coinciding with birds produced, shot, and brought back.

Spellow

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Spellow

Ryan,
My main glitch has been trying to figure out how to compete flushing breeds against pointing breeds...unless it is made out to be a timed event coinciding with birds produced, shot, and brought back.

Spellow

Require that the dogs honor and then you can run them head to head. Of course you wouldn't have much more than a couple of dogs to run then.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by RyanGSP

Spellow you got more info on that?

Jamie is just trying to get his hands on a real hunting dog that is able to put birds in the bag with the least amount of work on his part possible.

Easy there now buckaroo.
I dont want your dog..
I was suggesting you put your dog up against who ever decided to take you on.

But you already said you didnt have the guts for that.

Jamie

[Versatile]

Nope I dont. Like I said before are you willing to lay your son down in a bet?

[Winch101]

Can you hear the Swiss Clock here ?? Comparing giving up ones child to giving up your dog is prepostorous ,,,And I love dogs and they are definitely members of the familly BUT if your a DOG CooCoo you think there is some sort of paralell there .......Good thing there is no

psychological or drug testing to own firearms in this country or you would be

throwing stones at those Birds ...and wouldnt be allowed to own anything sharp...

Remember .... OLD is mandatory , UP is optional !!!!

[Rackmastr]

Sounds like ya scared him away Jamie....

He's always braggin about being better than the next guy and running his dog against anyone's and his dog being so much better, yet cant comprehend the idea of loosing some money I guess. Seems to me I've heard him preach about competition as well....yet now he's a bit scared of some....

Not sure what the comments about Jamie's son have to do with anything.....he is askin you to put up or shut up.....

I cant say I'm suprised by the answer.....

[AndersonSkiTeam]

This shows my inexperience with pointing dogs but probably 1/2 the pheasants I hunt tend to be runners. Does the pointer keep on following until pheasant stops or does the point mainly just work for hunkered down pheasants.

Then again maybe the pheasants were running because my lab was jumping through the bush trying to flush it.

Thanks for all the information. I think you are making my decision more difficult but I am learning a lot of information which should eventually help when I come to my decision.

My brother had an idea, buy all three and you are good to go. I think I would if my wife could handle 3 dogs but I am lucky she has agreed on 1.

[TheClash]

wow, are we really going to have this argument all season long again?? haha.....i hope if the duel ever goes down it gets video taped so we can all see puts up and who has to shut up...haha


anyways...i think with any of the choices you have brought up there really isn't one to go wrong with.....you just have to be satisfied with your choice and concentrate on raising your dog as well as you can. why not take some trips to the breeders you are considering...meet the parents, see their temperaments...that may help to make your decision.

i am actually pretty excited, i just found out that an old dog train that lives where i grew up (magrath) wants to help me try and train my ridgeback to hunt....i don't ever expect him to be a gsp or a lab....but he has come a long way since last season...and is a hunter by nature. i am hoping to get out and meet with this guy this week and and then go from there....meeting with him every so often to get tips and hints etc.......if it never works out..oh well i still have one of the greatest family dogs i have ever seen.

good luck in your choice...just don't look back once you make the choice.

[Jamie]

[QUOTE=TheClash;179347]wow, are we really going to have this argument all season long again?? haha.....i hope if the duel ever goes down it gets video taped so we can all see puts up and who has to shut up...haha


QUOTE]

All talk from Ryan..
But whats different about that


Jamie

[TheClash]

like i said, video it...........

[Spellow]

Originally Posted by AndersonSkiTeam

This shows my inexperience with pointing dogs but probably 1/2 the pheasants I hunt tend to be runners. Does the pointer keep on following until pheasant stops or does the point mainly just work for hunkered down pheasants.

Then again maybe the pheasants were running because my lab was jumping through the bush trying to flush it.

The pointer will trail the pheasant and (hopefully) lock on point to keep the bird from flushing...at least that is how it is supposed to work.

Pheasants are a running bird more than a flying bird, I've seen springers and other dogs trail them for a long time in some cases before flushing them up.

Like I said Anderson, do a little research, spend some time with some breeders and trainers...you'll figure it out. No matter what anyone else says, you are hopefully going to have that dog for a very long time, so you are the one that has to be happy with it.

Spellow

[puphood1]

Originally Posted by Spellow

The pointer will trail the pheasant and (hopefully) lock on point to keep the bird from flushing...at least that is how it is supposed to work.

Pheasants are a running bird more than a flying bird, I've seen springers and other dogs trail them for a long time in some cases before flushing them up.

Like I said Anderson, do a little research, spend some time with some breeders and trainers...you'll figure it out. No matter what anyone else says, you are hopefully going to have that dog for a very long time, so you are the one that has to be happy with it.

Spellow

Well that is some times true. There is some differances in how pointers finds and point game and a pointer should not be putting the bird to wing as that is why you are useing a pointer. Yes pheasants run but I have not seen a upland game bird that does not to one extent or another and I am talking wild birds not released birds as released birds as a rule use there legs even more because the methods of which they are raised.

Ground cover by a pointer comes in two basic forms:

Ground cover 1) Is buy trailing (foot sent) and eventually pining and pointing the bird by body sent (I have two Wirehaired pointers who are pro's at this method). This method will produce a lot of unproductive points by a careful pointer who does not want the bird to take wing. But works well in close conditions and cover.

Ground cover 2) By generally covering a lot of ground quickly and pointing only body sent. This fast running by the pointing dog with a sudden stop to point seems to pin birds well also. My E.Pointers do there hunting this way and will not follow foot sent at all. They totaly find and follow/track by body sent. These dogs work a lot more independent of the hunter/handler.

The important object in both kinds of bird work is that a dog learns not to crowd the birds and put them to flight. This is why in method 1 you get a lot of unproductives as the bird just keeps running off on the pointing dog. In method 2 the inexperianced or a dog that is not useing his nose well will cause unintentional wild flushes of birds that are crowded by a fast moveing dog. In both methods time, training and experance should solve any problems

Most new pointer people/hunters are content and prefer the first kind of hunting method by Pointers however it is generally frownded up by most Pointer purists. This kind of dog is usually close working (continental breeds were specially breed for this form of work) most of the time and hunters are most comfortable with this. Both methods of finding game produce birds equally well even on running Pheasants. The second method utilizes what the pointer as the dog was breed to do that is work semi-independently of the hunter/handler and is much more dramatic way and actually can be fun when you have to hike to a dog 2-600 yards in front of you standing his/her birds correctly till you get there and yes a good pointer should hold point for long extended lengths of time till you get there. The big advantage of method 2 for a hunter is a dog will cover the country side and saves you a lot of leg work especially in open country and most people are surprized how many birds they have missed even with a close handling dog infront of them till witnessing this way of useing a pointer.....Sorry for the long winded answer to pointing methods...........puphood1

[Vindalbakken]

Excellent review of the pointing dogs puphood. I would disagree with your assertion that both methods will work equally well on running birds such as pheasant. I have dogs that work by both methods and have owned dogs of both methods in the past. I find that the method #2 is much more effective at getting pheasants to hunker in and stay where they are. With a limit of only 2 cock birds in this province though it is a rather moot point because if you are in an area with birds you will find more than enough anyway.

[Redfrog]

Thanks for that puphood.

Can any of you poiter guys tell me how you do on Sharps. I hunt labs and even though they are in close the birds often bust out a long way out.

[Vindalbakken]

The birds often bust a long way out. On flighty birds like late season Sharps either type of dog is equally effective - unless the hard charger can't learn to keep his distance from the cover and then they become very good at "stop to flush".

It is very rare that I will get to walk out in front of the dog when they are on point on Sharptail.

[Setterman]

Vin, I completley agree with the two methods of pointing running birds. Having both types I see it all the time and I would definatly agree that I prefer the dog that uses their nose to body scent the bird. I mainly hunt sharpies and have a lot of experience hunting them. I think the two main contributing factors to the flush are habit that the birds are in and scenting condition. As a general rule I would say that most sharpies I have seen flush when I am about 5- 10 yards behind my dog, with shots ranging from 20-40 yards. SM

[Versatile]

Jamie I am agreed to run my dog but I will not put down money and I will not put my dog up for grabs. He is like my son and I love him just as much as you would your own boy. I have put hundreds of hours of work into this dog (which you know nothing about and cannot relate to) and I am not going to **** it all away. Let alone the fact you need to go and run to a "buddy" cant even use your own dog. You have no leg to stand on unless you go running for somone elses dog.

Like I said I am more than willing to put down but moeny I dont have and a dog I wont give up just are not in the cards.

Rack I have tried to hunt with you/agaisnt your dogs for years now and you always go crawling under your rock and need the good ol boys to defend you. Your not one to talk. The same goes for Winch101. Heck he wouldnt even step back onto the field after his dog humiliated him by biting a horse.

[cohod]

the thread is about opinions on dogs...not how great you are ryan for the love of God LET IT GO!