Almost a daily occurance

[rednuck]

Originally Posted by Brandon5555

A little off topic but relevant all the same. Fishing on deeded land with creek bed rights.

I do believe waterways have a similar set of rules as lease

Alberta legislation simply provides that the crown has title to all “beds and shores” of permanent and naturally occurring bodies of water, rivers and streams.

is what I found on it. I think its 20 meters or something above the high water mark.

The recreational lease access is foot access, it also doesn't guarantee you can hunt because of section 38 of the wildlife act. Sometimes you can just walk around and not shoot everything even though you guys "own all that land"

[Brandon5555]

Originally Posted by rednuck

I do believe waterways have a similar set of rules as lease



is what I found on it. I think its 20 meters or something above the high water mark.

The recreational lease access is foot access, it also doesn't guarantee you can hunt because of section 38 of the wildlife act. Sometimes you can just walk around and not shoot everything even though you guys "own all that land"

Well he said that the deed is from the 1800s and includes the creek bed. I didn't know that was even possible.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by tim1

Are we going here again? Get the regulations on lease land right. You still need permission to access lease land. Access can be denied for numerous reasons. I just love how some of you are lease land experts.

This is where the thread went sideways. I was in full agreement with tim1. then he went full attitude on us.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by huntwat

This is where the thread went sideways. I was in full agreement with tim1. then he went full attitude on us.

for stating facts???...better check back and see who went "full attitude"

[thumper]

Then call me a 'clown' Tim. I'm done arguing with grazing leaseholders that believe their leasing public land for the right to graze cattle, also gives them the right to arbitrarily deny reasonable access to the public.

You've outlined hunter disregard of the rules as is your right. I'm exercising my rights and documenting grazing leaseholder abuse of their responsibilities, that I have personally witnessed, and am making an appointment with my MLA, requesting a review of the grazing lease legislation. I'm asking for opportunity for the public to have meaningful input in a public, transparent, not just the Cattleman's Association dealing behind closed doors with their 'good old boy' Conservative friends. I'm not a big fan of the NDP, but in this instance, where they don't owe any favours to cattlemen, I'm hopeful that they'll shed some light on this sorry arrangement.

I will take full advantage of any opportunity afforded me to participate in any review, and will encourage every sportsperson I know personally, and through forums such as this - to take part. I'll focus on access issues, but I know a group of hunting agrologists that will focus on grazing lease land health issues, a couple of hunting cattlemen who will focus on the byzantine methods used to determine sweetheart lease rates (and the ability to rig them), along with leaseholders who do not run any cattle but only collect oil/gas revenue, and environmentalists to question the overall reasons for issuing grazing leases in light of other uses of public land more beneficial to the public - such as government responsibility for endangered species like the sage grouse.

Tim, you seem confident in your position. Let's take it to a transparent review with the land owner (the people of Alberta), and see where the chips fall. This constant, festering wound in hunter/leaseholder relationships needs to addressed.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by thumper

Then call me a 'clown' Tim. I'm done arguing with grazing leaseholders that believe their leasing public land for the right to graze cattle, also gives them the right to arbitrarily deny reasonable access to the public.

You've outlined hunter disregard of the rules as is your right. I'm exercising my rights and documenting grazing leaseholder abuse of their responsibilities, that I have personally witnessed, and am making an appointment with my MLA, requesting a review of the grazing lease legislation. I'm asking for opportunity for the public to have meaningful input in a public, transparent, not just the Cattleman's Association dealing behind closed doors with their 'good old boy' Conservative friends. I'm not a big fan of the NDP, but in this instance, where they don't owe any favours to cattlemen, I'm hopeful that they'll shed some light on this sorry arrangement.

I will take full advantage of any opportunity afforded me to participate in any review, and will encourage every sportsperson I know personally, and through forums such as this - to take part. I'll focus on access issues, but I know a group of hunting agrologists that will focus on grazing lease land health issues, a couple of hunting cattlemen who will focus on the byzantine methods used to determine sweetheart lease rates (and the ability to rig them), along with leaseholders who do not run any cattle but only collect oil/gas revenue, and environmentalists to question the overall reasons for issuing grazing leases in light of other uses of public land more beneficial to the public - such as government responsibility for endangered species like the sage grouse.

Tim, you seem confident in your position. Let's take it to a transparent review with the land owner (the people of Alberta), and see where the chips fall. This constant, festering wound in hunter/leaseholder relationships needs to addressed.

Why argue with the lease holder?, if he is not following the rules , let the settlement officer deal with it...

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by hal53

for stating facts???...better check back and see who went "full attitude"

Who went full attitude Hal? Are you suggesting my post was full attitude?

I was stating facts, no attitude. If someone got hurt feelings from my post, I'm not sorry.

[robson3954]

Originally Posted by Brandon5555

A little off topic but relevant all the same. Fishing on deeded land with creek bed rights. A couple months back parked up the road from jumping pound creek, hadn't even unpacked my gear yet, or made it to the fence for that matter
And sure enough some old guy in a black f150 wasted no time howling up to my truck telling me not even to think about fishing the creek as he owns the creek bed in the deed. Honestly tell me what is some fat guy in chest waders gonna do to your precious creek bed? I always respect the land and the property of others, as I told him but got bounced out regardless. Ain't right.

That's the copithornes.... They're one of the extremely few properties with creek rights and they're not nice about. I've heard so many stories with them its not even funny. There's plenty of topics on them in the fly fishing forum.

You'd think that knowing they're the exception the the rule they'd post a sign explaining the deed and creek rights. I think most fishermen would respect it.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by hal53

Why argue with the lease holder?, if he is not following the rules , let the settlement officer deal with it...

And why argue with the recreationist?? If he is not following the rules, let law enforcement deal with it.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by huntwat

And why argue with the recreationist?? If he is not following the rules, let law enforcement deal with it.

He should have no reason to argue with you, as long as you did your due diligence before entering the land????....it's not that difficult...

[winged1]

Strange how alberta law is turning many of its citizens into lawbreakers, to service a much smaller group. I, as well as a few others, have permissions on a 2section block of land east. its nice deer country, nothing big, with the odd nice mule. when there, I often come across hunters without permission, and would agree that it happens probably every day. I don't challenge them, I don't yell at them, and I don't bad mouth them to the owners. I ask how thier hunt is, small chat, then get back to business. I could I suppose, tell the owners that they have lawbreaking trespassing hunters who'll disrespect thier land by shooting carelessly while knocking down fences and gates. But I haven't seen any of that. Now if we were to talk about guides, that would be different.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by hal53

He should have no reason to argue with you, as long as you did your due diligence before entering the land????....it's not that difficult...

The leaser sometimes makes it as difficult as possible. And then you have to go through the proper channels to get a ruling. That is due diligence, its not difficult, but should not have to be that way.
Example; leaving one cow in a section of pasture.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by huntwat

The leaser sometimes makes it as difficult as possible. And then you have to go through the proper channels to get a ruling. That is due diligence, its not difficult, but should not have to be that way.
Example; leaving one cow in a section of pasture.

I got it straight from the horses mouth..... so to speak (Directly from the Ministry of Environment and Parks), one cow or horse, even a few cattle or horses is not grounds to deny reasonable access. A common ploy amongst crooked lease holders.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I got it straight from the horses mouth..... so to speak (Directly from the Ministry of Environment and Parks), one cow or horse, even a few cattle or horses is not grounds to deny reasonable access. A common ploy amongst crooked lease holders.

In today's society it's not surprising that there are people who will "bend" the rules to their advantage on both sides of this issue. That is why there is a dispute resolution process in effect. As I said, it's not difficult, and usually gets resolved quickly from what I understand...in my case , it was one phone call

[mich]

ME me me me, way too much of this. You don't own it stay off, you don't have permission.... stay off, you trespass .... at least pick up after yourself.

deep breath..... silly season will be over soon

[Brandon5555]

Originally Posted by robson3954

That's the copithornes.... They're one of the extremely few properties with creek rights and they're not nice about. I've heard so many stories with them its not even funny. There's plenty of topics on them in the fly fishing forum.

You'd think that knowing they're the exception the the rule they'd post a sign explaining the deed and creek rights. I think most fishermen would respect it.

Seriously though they abuse it and in turn we miss out on a good close fishery

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by chad66

On both sides of the fence...

Stand on the fence, it is a balancing act, as in this case and many others...

[Stella]

I agree with you 100%. To give an example about how bad its getting out there. I had exclusive permission to some land for November 4-6. I was the only one on this land for these three days. I witnessed in the three days guys driving the perimeter of the land and then get out and glass into the land they had no permission on. I have no idea what they thought they were going to do if they did see something since they were not allowed on the land anyways. I came across fresh boot prints in the snow on November 5. I know it was not me as I did not make it that far into the land on the first day. But the best was when I saw a guy get out of his truck, proceed towards the land with no permission on and fire shots into the brush!!! He took three shots into one big brushed area and then drove to the next area and proceeded to do this again into another brushed coullee. Not sure what he thought he was accomplishing by doing this but as far as I can he see he was breaking one if not more laws/rules!!! Every year it seems that the bad hunters are out weighing the good hunters more and more year after year. At this rate the land owners are going to close down there land and we will have no where to hunt.

[score]

I'm not going to get into the lease land argument and have been on both sides as a landowner and a humble hunter asking for access permission.
I have run across a few miserable land owners but they have been by far the minority.

All the problems out there today from stolen cams to blinds and access confrontations are due to far too many disrespectful slobs, period. Seems too damn hard for some guys to just be a decent person.

Things in the field have really changed in the last ten years or so ruining it for land owners and hunters alike.

While I haven't put much effort into scouting and permission as I used to, at least half of my haunts and honey holes have been shut down.

Used to be you'd hear about or run across the odd moron. Today the field is full of them. Sucks for everyone, really.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by score

I'm not going to get into the lease land argument and have been on both sides as a landowner and a humble hunter asking for access permission.
I have run across a few miserable land owners but they have been by far the minority.

All the problems out there today from stolen cams to blinds and access confrontations are due to far too many disrespectful slobs, period. Seems too damn hard for some guys to just be a decent person.

Things in the field have really changed in the last ten years or so ruining it for land owners and hunters alike.

While I haven't put much effort into scouting and permission as I used to, at least half of my haunts and honey holes have been shut down.

Used to be you'd hear about or run across the odd moron. Today the field is full of them. Sucks for everyone, really.

This, in a nutshell explains the problem. Seems these days the "kill" is all important, forget about the rules ( how many posts on this forum by guys who are hunting and have never read the regs?), just get out there and kill something for bragging rights and forget about the process of hunting that should begin long before the harvest of an animal

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by mich

ME me me me, way too much of this. You don't own it stay off, you don't have permission.... stay off, you trespass .... at least pick up after yourself.

deep breath..... silly season will be over soon

Me me me, you don't own it, you just profit from it. Way too much of this.

You don't own it, you don have the right to deny reasonable access. Quit making bogus excuses as to why people should not have access.

You don't own it, pick up after yourself.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Me me me, you don't own it, you just profit from it. Way too much of this.

You don't own it, you don have the right to deny reasonable access. Quit making bogus excuses as to why people should not have access.

You don't own it, pick up after yourself.

Do you use the I hunter App?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by hal53

Do you use the I hunter App?

I have it but normally use updated county maps. Even after using maps I visit the landowner/leaseholder in person for permission before accessing land.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I have it but normally use updated county maps. Even after using maps I visit the landowner/leaseholder in person for permission before accessing land.

I just started using it this year, I use the maps as well, but I like the app, because it states the conditions that both parties agreed to prior to signing the lease.. very easy to tell if they are not being met...

[mich]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Me me me, you don't own it, you just profit from it. Way too much of this.

You don't own it, you don have the right to deny reasonable access. Quit making bogus excuses as to why people should not have access.

You don't own it, pick up after yourself.

But I do own it

[fargineyesore]

Originally Posted by Brandon5555

Well he said that the deed is from the 1800s and includes the creek bed. I didn't know that was even possible.

No tell him to talk to the local ESRD Land Use Officer. The watercourse does not have to be excepted out of title to be owned by the crown. The Crown has been making Industry apply for pipeline agreements that cross creeks or other watercourses that are not excepted out of the landowner's title. The crown feels they own the watercourse.

[mich]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Me me me, you don't own it, you just profit from it. Way too much of this.

You don't own it, you don have the right to deny reasonable access. Quit making bogus excuses as to why people should not have access.

You don't own it, pick up after yourself.

And this folks is the reason we do not allow anyone on our property, we do own it and are sick of picking up and fixing from self entitled idiots that have no respect for anyone but themselves

[hal53]

Originally Posted by mich

And this folks is the reason we do not allow anyone on our property, we do own it and are sick of picking up and fixing from self entitled idiots that have no respect for anyone but themselves

I think Kurt was meaning lease land, not deeded

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by mich

And this folks is the reason we do not allow anyone on our property, we do own it and are sick of picking up and fixing from self entitled idiots that have no respect for anyone but themselves

Like Hal said, I was referring to lease holders.

I assure you, if all hunters/landowners/leaseholders had the same respect for others and their properties I do, there would be no land access disputes.

[rednuck]

Maybe the AO forums should be documented and added to the farm safety review? Some inappropriately angry people knocking on doors every fall.