Ali#1, you were right about Arizona.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Jesus on a cross is not a graven image. Jesus is not an idol. Jesus is not a thing. Jesus is God.

Is Jesus in heaven ?

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by Boots270

Haha
I'm not questioning you.
I'm stating the fact that you do not understand this issue and that you are a glutton for punishment. You are like watching a schoolyard fight and keep losing but you keep trying.
You bring it upon yourself.
Why?
Only God knows.

I reject your opinion and I'm afraid I'm only makin you feel more important by answering you, have a good one.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I understand you are breaking a commandment and explaining it away through excuses. It's says no graven images that means no images Of a dead Jesus. The few times I do got I church I see images of Jesus all the time.

Your understanding is that of a child.

[Boots270]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I reject your opinion and I'm afraid I'm only makin you feel more important by answering you, have a good one.

Doink
You missed the target again as usual.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ali#1

Is Jesus in heaven ?

You remind me of the knight on Monty Python who comes back even after all his limbs have been cut off.

Jesus is in heaven.

Jesus is not a graven image.

Jesus is not a thing.

Jesus is not an idol.

Jesus is God

If you have any more fight in you over this one.......you're doing nothing but showing your ignorance.

Graven image

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Look up graven image in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Graven image or graven images may refer to:

• Idolatry a pejorative term for the worship of an idol

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by ehntr

You remind me of the knight on Monty Python who comes back even after all his limbs have been cut off.

Jesus is in heaven.

Jesus is not a graven image.

Jesus is not a thing.

Jesus is not an idol.

Jesus is God

If you have any more fight in you over this one.......you're doing nothing but showing your ignorance.

I just want to see how far you will go to excuse breaking a commandment. If Jesus is in heaven and the commandment clearly says "or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" then it's painfully obvious that you are braking a commandment, excuse whatever you want away I don't care.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I just want to see how far you will go to excuse breaking a commandment. If Jesus is in heaven and the commandment clearly says "or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" then it's painfully obvious that you are braking a commandment, excuse whatever you want away I don't care.

Find another person who will agree with you.

Have you come with any examples of child sacrifices yet?

Troll.

[Winch101]

I just want to thank all participants in this thread ......my bet with several
other AO members that this thread would break 600 posts .
I win .....Ali you are to be commended for your fishing acumen .
You understand there is no shortage of the chosen ones , a totally
different cast than the last debacle on this subject. Always entertaining.
But not really a fair fight , you wouldn't walk along the fence at the special
Needs school ,teasing the inmates ,would you....not the spiritual thing to do .

I couldn't help notice that there were no cheek turners in this lot , more
rabid than the last few.... The mods ,I admire their restraint ......
This is where Trophyboy comes in and says " See , I'm right"

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I just want to see how far you will go to excuse breaking a commandment. If Jesus is in heaven and the commandment clearly says "or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" then it's painfully obvious that you are braking a commandment, excuse whatever you want away I don't care.

Sheesh Ali, how many times does the same thing have to be gone over to penetrate the grey matter between your ears?
It's already been pointed out a few times how you like to manipulate the text for your own purposes and you are doing it again.
In quoting the commandment in question you've left out the most important word - the primary noun - you know - the word that the commandment is all about.

That word is "idol" - a man-made 'thing' that represents god and is worshiped in place of God. In pagan religiosity that idol is considered to be god - because the god was believed to be present in that idol. Therefore an idol is a cultic image - designed and intended to be worshiped as god.
No one in any Christian church worships a crucifix or picture of Jesus or anything else representing Him. That is idolatry, and that is forbidden. The commandment says absolutely nothing about using symbols to remind us of core teachings of the faith - like the cross reminds us that Jesus died on one so that the sins of His people would be forgiven. In fact, the Bible is full of non-cultic symbols used to help people 'see' aspects of God represented by such symbols. Example: the Old Testament Temples of Israel were full of such symbols - and God even instructed that they be made.

As I understand it (we don't do it in my tradition) bowing before the crucifix, making the sign of the cross, kneeling in front of it, are symbolic actions done out of huge respect for what the cross represents and are a sign of submission to the majesty of Jesus. Looking at an artistic depiction of Jesus does the same thing. Doing such things are not worshiping that object or picture or worshiping God in them. They are merely tools for reminding people about God and the crucial things He has done for His people.

Also, you still haven't defined the word 'image'. It's hard to address your point without knowing your definition.

I'm starting to think like some other guys here - that you are just being a scat-disturbing troll.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Sheesh Ali, how many times does the same thing have to be gone over to penetrate the grey matter between your ears?
It's already been pointed out a few times how you like to manipulate the text for your own purposes and you are doing it again.
In quoting the commandment in question you've left out the most important word - the primary noun - you know - the word that the commandment is all about.

That word is "idol" - a man-made 'thing' that represents god and is worshiped in place of God. In pagan religiosity that idol is considered to be god - because the god was believed to be present in that idol. Therefore an idol is a cultic image - designed and intended to be worshiped as god.
No one in any Christian church worships a crucifix or picture of Jesus or anything else representing Him. That is idolatry, and that is forbidden. The commandment says absolutely nothing about using symbols to remind us of core teachings of the faith - like the cross reminds us that Jesus died on one so that the sins of His people would be forgiven. In fact, the Bible is full of non-cultic symbols used to help people 'see' aspects of God represented by such symbols. Example: the Old Testament Temples of Israel were full of such symbols - and God even instructed that they be made.

As I understand it (we don't do it in my tradition) bowing before the crucifix, making the sign of the cross, kneeling in front of it, are symbolic actions done out of huge respect for what the cross represents and are a sign of submission to the majesty of Jesus. Looking at an artistic depiction of Jesus does the same thing. Doing such things are not worshiping that object or picture or worshiping God in them. They are merely tools for reminding people about God and the crucial things He has done for His people.

Also, you still haven't defined the word 'image'. It's hard to address your point without knowing your definition.

I'm starting to think like some other guys here - that you are just being a scat-disturbing troll.

I didn't change anything that's literally word for word in the King James Bible.it really couldn't be more clear than it is. No images yet when I go to church I see images all over the place, stained glass windows the cross outside, Jesus it seems as you can just excuse away whatever you want and hold other people to a higher standard.

What about the sabbath then isn't the sabbath actually on Saturday ?

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by Winch101

I just want to thank all participants in this thread ......my bet with several
other AO members that this thread would break 600 posts .
I win .....Ali you are to be commended for your fishing acumen .
You understand there is no shortage of the chosen ones , a totally
different cast than the last debacle on this subject. Always entertaining.
But not really a fair fight , you wouldn't walk along the fence at the special
Needs school ,teasing the inmates ,would you....not the spiritual thing to do .

I couldn't help notice that there were no cheek turners in this lot , more
rabid than the last few.... The mods ,I admire their restraint ......
This is where Trophyboy comes in and says " See , I'm right"

I have Ben told I have no right to my opinion, I'm wrong
, I don't understand, what's written isn't what was meant, slavery isn't really slavery. No turn the other cheek around here.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Find another person who will agree with you.

Have you come with any examples of child sacrifices yet?

Troll.

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

I'm waiting for you to say sacrifice isn't really sacrifice like slavery isn't really slavery.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ali#1

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

I'm waiting for you to say sacrifice isn't really sacrifice like slavery isn't really slavery.

It never happended (the sacrifice) did it ali#1. It was a test. No blood was drawn. Again, you fail to deliver. Have you no shame; no honour...

[ali#1]

I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

God likes fire apparently.

[connexion123]

Originally Posted by ali#1

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

I'm waiting for you to say sacrifice isn't really sacrifice like slavery isn't really slavery.

He never sacrificed him. God provided a Ram.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by connexion123

He never sacrificed him. God provided a Ram.

Dodge ?


Sorry that was too easy.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I have Ben told I have no right to my opinion, I'm wrong
, I don't understand, what's written isn't what was meant, slavery isn't really slavery. No turn the other cheek around here.

I don't think that "turning the other cheek" means backing away from a debate.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by ali#1

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

I'm waiting for you to say sacrifice isn't really sacrifice like slavery isn't really slavery.

Is a sacrifice a sacrifice, if it didn't happen?

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by ali#1

I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

God likes fire apparently.

The devil is in the details... Was he actually commanded to sacrifice his daughter, or had he been too hasty in the uttering of his vow (and paid a terrible price instead of reneging on his promise)?

[covey ridge]

I do not think of myself as a religious person, but I like the Bible and for the most part respect Christians except for those who seem want to beat me with the Book that I like so much. Now I am not sure if the Bible has an answer to all questions that life begs us to ask. But questions it has and I think they are really good ones and the most important questions are not immediately answered. I may be a bit weird but I love to embrace those questions. The following are just a few of my favourite:


Just a couple pages of the Book, God calls to the man “where are you?'” The man did not exactly answer this question. Why did God ask that question? After all He just created the man and He could not have lost them already?

Shortly after this question the son of the man asked God, “am I my brothers keeper?” God never exactly answered this question as well.

Many questions that I find interesting but not exactly answered. Too many to record here. Fast forward to Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus is asked “when will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus never does answer that question but tells the questioner something else. One could do a very lengthy study on questions that Jesus or the Bible do not answer.

I can not tell you the answer of those questions should be for you. I am at peace with my answers to those questions.

I hope I have not offended anyone with this post

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Just a couple pages of the Book, God calls to the man “where are you?'” The man did not exactly answer this question. Why did God ask that question? After all He just created the man and He could not have lost them already?

I think he asked it to point something out to Adam.. Kind of like a father would ask his son if he got into the cookie jar, even if he knew he did it.

What is your answer to this question?

[CNP]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

I do not think of myself as a religious person, but I like the Bible and for the most part respect Christians except for those who seem want to beat me with the Book that I like so much. Now I am not sure if the Bible has an answer to all questions that life begs us to ask. But questions it has and I think they are really good ones and the most important questions are not immediately answered. I may be a bit weird but I love to embrace those questions. The following are just a few of my favourite:


Just a couple pages of the Book, God calls to the man “where are you?'” The man did not exactly answer this question. Why did God ask that question? After all He just created the man and He could not have lost them already?

Shortly after this question the son of the man asked God, “am I my brothers keeper?” God never exactly answered this question as well.

Many questions that I find interesting but not exactly answered. Too many to record here. Fast forward to Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus is asked “when will the Kingdom of God come?” Jesus never does answer that question but tells the questioner something else. One could do a very lengthy study on questions that Jesus or the Bible do not answer.

I can not tell you the answer of those questions should be for you. I am at peace with my answers to those questions.

I hope I have not offended anyone with this post

Maybe we did not invent "rhetorical".

[Mistagin]

Well, I think here's where I'll toss in this text, spoken by Jesus, "Do not give dogs what is sacred: do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Basically what it means is that there comes a time when trying to explain spiritual matters when one who holds those matters as precious and meaningful needs to come to grips with the spiritual capacity of the one(s) he or she is trying to teach. Obviously Ali doesn't have (or want) a spiritual capacity to learn or understand such things. He just wants to mock and denigrate Christians and our faith (and our Lord and Saviour). I honestly don't think I've ever come across anyone as obstinate and narrow/closed minded as he is in my life! So I'm out of this one.

[ali#1]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Well, I think here's where I'll toss in this text, spoken by Jesus, "Do not give dogs what is sacred: do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Basically what it means is that there comes a time when trying to explain spiritual matters when one who holds those matters as precious and meaningful needs to come to grips with the spiritual capacity of the one(s) he or she is trying to teach. Obviously Ali doesn't have (or want) a spiritual capacity to learn or understand such things. He just wants to mock and denigrate Christians and our faith (and our Lord and Saviour). I honestly don't think I've ever come across anyone as obstinate and narrow/closed minded as he is in my life! So I'm out of this one.

No sorry Ali has this thing called common sense. I need to see actual proof to believe something, proof is something your side does not have. If I see proof I will re evaluate, if you see proof you will double down on a book.

But in the end I just want me and my children to be left out if this game. Don't make up rules on my behalf or force me to live how you want based on a book I don't believe is true. Do this and we will get along. I and many like me have had enough of this bullying and won't be putting up with anymore.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Well, I think here's where I'll toss in this text, spoken by Jesus, "Do not give dogs what is sacred: do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Basically what it means is that there comes a time when trying to explain spiritual matters when one who holds those matters as precious and meaningful needs to come to grips with the spiritual capacity of the one(s) he or she is trying to teach. Obviously Ali doesn't have (or want) a spiritual capacity to learn or understand such things. He just wants to mock and denigrate Christians and our faith (and our Lord and Saviour). I honestly don't think I've ever come across anyone as obstinate and narrow/closed minded as he is in my life! So I'm out of this one.

Well said.. sad though..

[fish gunner]

We can now find the ripples in space echoing the big bang. Once called fanciful now approaching fact ! We know the heavy elements are created in the hearts of dieing suns over generations and successive super nova . It is believed we dwell in an area working on its fourth or fifth sun . Soon the keppler search for earth like planets will succeed and give proof that earth in all its majesty , beauty and diversity are for the most part quite common place . Leaving the possibility that advanced life is a mundane common place occurrence in this vast cosmos we are slowly starting to understand . slowly but surely. Believe what you wish it is a noble quality to have faith . I ask you take the time to learn that which is knonw of this great universe that from our point of view is starting to make sense with no requirement of faith just understanding of space .... it is massively large and totally cool.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

We can now find the ripples in space echoing the big bang. Once called fanciful now approaching fact ! We know the heavy elements are created in the hearts of dieing suns over generations and successive super nova . It is believed we dwell in an area working on its fourth or fifth sun . Soon the keppler search for earth like planets will succeed and give proof that earth in all its majesty , beauty and diversity are for the most part quite common place . Leaving the possibility that advanced life is a mundane common place occurrence in this vast cosmos we are slowly starting to understand . slowly but surely. Believe what you wish it is a noble quality to have faith . I ask you take the time to learn that which is knonw of this great universe that from our point of view is starting to make sense with no requirement of faith just understanding of space .... it is massively large and totally cool.

Is there no room in your universe for those who also have faith?

I too believe in the big bang, and many other issues supported by science, but I also see there are many things that can't be explained by science, and I doubt ever could be. Therefore I have faith.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I think he asked it to point something out to Adam.. Kind of like a father would ask his son if he got into the cookie jar, even if he knew he did it.

What is your answer to this question?

PM sent

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Well, I think here's where I'll toss in this text, spoken by Jesus, "Do not give dogs what is sacred: do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

Basically what it means is that there comes a time when trying to explain spiritual matters when one who holds those matters as precious and meaningful needs to come to grips with the spiritual capacity of the one(s) he or she is trying to teach. Obviously Ali doesn't have (or want) a spiritual capacity to learn or understand such things. He just wants to mock and denigrate Christians and our faith (and our Lord and Saviour). I honestly don't think I've ever come across anyone as obstinate and narrow/closed minded as he is in my life! So I'm out of this one.

Agree and sorry to see you go.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

We can now find the ripples in space echoing the big bang. Once called fanciful now approaching fact ! We know the heavy elements are created in the hearts of dieing suns over generations and successive super nova . It is believed we dwell in an area working on its fourth or fifth sun . Soon the keppler search for earth like planets will succeed and give proof that earth in all its majesty , beauty and diversity are for the most part quite common place . Leaving the possibility that advanced life is a mundane common place occurrence in this vast cosmos we are slowly starting to understand . slowly but surely. Believe what you wish it is a noble quality to have faith . I ask you take the time to learn that which is knonw of this great universe that from our point of view is starting to make sense with no requirement of faith just understanding of space .... it is massively large and totally cool.

KOOL
I believe that all of those who undertook the mission of discovery to find these amazing worlds, must have had faith that they could do it. It was by faith that they started the journey and not a demand of proof of what they would find. What one can now believe because of proof happened because of faith.