To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

As the first sentence indicates, the fact that there would be an imminent draw resulting from allowing x-bows in, really speaks to the somewhat selfishness of all other hunting interest groups ( groups outside of existing archery hunters )
They think that if they have to hunt these animals on draw then so should the archers.
That is really the most rational reason I can see for the fight of the ''yes'' folks.
Thanks for bringing this to light.

You missed the point. This is just a theory however, if antlered mule deer and moose would not be included for harvest, then there would be no requirement for any draws. What if SRD only allowed crossbow use in certain WMU's where herd populations could support it or for antlerless whitetail deer where they want the numbers reduced?

That might be why there is a discrepancy between what the SRD biologist stated and what the SRD survey stated that inclusion "MAY" require draws. The word "MAY" indicates to me that it is not a certainty.

Or, SRD biologists are divided on the issue and that is merely one SRD biologist's opinion and other SRD biologists are of differing opinions.

Or, what I was told is total BS....

Almost EVERYONE chose their decision on this issue based on what was best for themselves so I don't think that rifle hunters that want to see bowhunters participating in draws as being any more evil than anyone else.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Yeah....YES

anyhow, you will not triple your success with crossbow, hey, maybe the odd guy could but he might have some interesting hunting and shooting styles...never know?.... all the places that include it within a couple percent of compound success rates...so from game manage standpoint...its 100% bow...oh and since your so keen on honing your skills etc. do you hunt with a recurve or compound bow? if compound then your standing on your own you know whats....thats gotta hurt

you have some homework to catch up on, research the tool (crossbow) and learn about its true field capabilities, your whole post is wrong

Maybe YOU should do YOUR homework?I defy you to show me a single stat from ANY of "the places that include it within a couple percent of compound success rates" ....that's complete BS!

To the contrary,I can easily provide stats that show x-bows having up to 4X and more the success rates over compound hunters.And to the hunter that claims 3x the success with an x-bow,from my own expereince,I would say you are being conservative.Just on one single,2 day,spot&stalk archery bear hunt this past fall,I can honestly say I seen 9 bears,I had ONE clear shot opp that I elected to pass on,at least 6 slam dunks had I been carrying a rifle,4 or 5 of those would have been very doable and within range had I been carrying a cocked and loaded,ready to fire instantly crossgun.

[packhuntr]

Watch out Grinr, your gonna get it now,,, a bunch of stats that is. And to top it off, you will hear that you are wrong, you obviously not a capable archer or it would have happened for you,,, the Xbow would not have done the job for you, and to top er off you will be labelled an Anti-Hunter. Basically, a bunch of guys that know nothing of bowhunting are on the way, and they are gonna be looking to sort you, and that post of yours out... Best brace yourself my man.

[grinr]

Thanks for the warning PH....I'm getting ready for'em.Removing arrow from quiver,nocking it now....hooking up release.....uggggggg....damn,someone just pinned me with an x-bow bolt....I sure wish I could get a shot off with my compound so quickly.....shouldn't a brought a knife to a gunfight I guess?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by grinr

Maybe YOU should do YOUR homework?I defy you to show me a single stat from ANY of "the places that include it within a couple percent of compound success rates" ....that's complete BS!

To the contrary,I can easily provide stats that show x-bows having up to 4X and more the success rates over compound hunters.And to the hunter that claims 3x the success with an x-bow,from my own expereince,I would say you are being conservative.Just on one single,2 day,spot&stalk archery bear hunt this past fall,I can honestly say I seen 9 bears,I had ONE clear shot opp that I elected to pass on,at least 6 slam dunks had I been carrying a rifle,4 or 5 of those would have been very doable and within range had I been carrying a cocked and loaded,ready to fire instantly crossgun.

Here ya go:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09193/983377-358.stm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09144/972185-358.stm

http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/in...nds_again.html

Okay, your turn.

[Mountain Guy]

Help me out here HD.
I've been thinking about this and want your take.
You say that a x-bow has no advantage over a compound. One of the main reasons being that a bolt is shorter and losses velocity quicker therefore no advantage out past 40 yrds.
I'm not an engineer but couldn't the x-bow be built to throw arrows similar to a compound ?
Just a thought, but who's to say that x-bows can't be built to far exceed the capabilities of a compound bow.
The possible draw weights of an x-bow, in an already cocked device throwing an arrow or bolt or whatever you want to call it, at umteen ft/sec.
Is there reasons why x-bow engineers haven't designed such machines?
Or maybe they have....

[SLH]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Here ya go:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09193/983377-358.stm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09144/972185-358.stm

http://www.cleveland.com/outdoors/in...nds_again.html

Okay, your turn.

A couple things I got from these articles:

First they are pro xbows.

Second it is pretty much a slam dunk that the species will go on draw.

This quote also disturbs me... "These days, it's a matter of the states selling sportsmen on hunting deer with a crossbow, and selling more licenses and permits."

The numbers show that xbows are killing more animals but it doesn't say why. My suspicion is that it is easier for people to pick up a xbow than practice with a verticle bow.

Finally I don't think anyone is saying that crossbows will decimate the herds I think they will mess up a perfect hunting season set up for a specific purpose that never intended to include xbows.

Originally Posted by grinr

To the contrary,I can easily provide stats that show x-bows having up to 4X and more the success rates over compound hunters..

Please, provide them.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Help me out here HD.
I've been thinking about this and want your take.
You say that a x-bow has no advantage over a compound. One of the main reasons being that a bolt is shorter and losses velocity quicker therefore no advantage out past 40 yrds.
I'm not an engineer but couldn't the x-bow be built to throw arrows similar to a compound ?
Just a thought, but who's to say that x-bows can't be built to far exceed the capabilities of a compound bow.
The possible draw weights of an x-bow, in an already cocked device throwing an arrow or bolt or whatever you want to call it, at umteen ft/sec.
Is there reasons why x-bow engineers haven't designed such machines?
Or maybe they have....

Yes, the PSE T15i, I think that it's called, is about 400 fps. That is a higher velocity of any compound bow or other crossbow that that I know of.

I can't think of any reason why engineers can't come up with something like that for compound bows either though. They just aren't there yet. They did afterall design design a longbow with cams that exceeds the traditional longbow.

What's yer point?

Do a search for 400fps compound bows...it ain't far away. I wonder if we'll hear an outcry from the archery community when that mythical speed is surpassed. Start checking out the trajectory differences between a 400fps crossbow and a 360fps compound bow and you'll soon realize it ain't a hill of beans of difference. Kind of like arguing over 100fps in a centrefire rifle.

[grinr]

blah,blah...and blah...typical pro-crossbow propoganda.Comparing states that are over-run with deer and use crossbows,MLs,rifles,bows,lengthy seasons and every conceivable method imaginablt to control deer numbers is apples to oranges when comparing to parts of Alberta that will most definately have to go to draw if x-bows are allowed.

Also,your own examples only further to prove my point of boltgunners being much more successful than their vertical bow counterparts,thank you very much.
From the 1st link:
Ohio: In 2003-2004, 29,397 deer were taken with crossbows and 21,167 were taken with vertical equipment.(app. 30% more?)

- During the 2004-2005 harvest, crossbow hunters accounted for 33,175 kills, vertical archers took 24,023 deer(almost 50% more deer taken with x-bows)


What your cute little Ohio success stories don't tell is that since the legalisation of x-bows,40% of rifle hunters have taken up "bowhunting" with x-bows.Studies in Arkansas and Georgia show similair results,with anywhere from 25-40% of firearms hunters crossing over to use x-bows.How does that equate in Alberta if 25-40% of all rifle hunters become instant,out-of-the-box "bowhunters"?


OK my turn:
in 2002,crossbows were legalised for deer hunting in certain zones in Quebec.game managers there are now re-thinking seasons due to the "un-expected" higher success rates being realised by x-bow hunters.
Here are the survey results submitted by bow and x-bow hunters in PQ.

2002
63 bowhunters spent 347 hunting days afield to harvest 8 deer for a 12.7% success rate.On average,that translates to 43.3 hunting days per deer harvested.

55 x-bow hunters spent 276 hunting days to harvest 11 deer for a 20% success rate,or 25 hunting days per deer harvested.


hmmmm?....it seems x-bow hunters in 2002 had almost double the success rate of vert bows while hunting almost 40% less days.

2004
23 bowhunters/116 hunting days/3 deer harvested/13.4% success rate/38.6 hunting days per deer
78 x-bows hunters/same 116 hunting days/21 deer harvested/29.9% success rate/18 hunting days per deer.


hmmmm....starting to see a pattern here?In 2004,3x the amount of x-bows took 7x the amount of deer as bowhunters did with less than half the time spent hunting.....interesting.250% better success rate,less than half the effort.

2006
WOW...musta been a good year?
21 bowhunters spent 73 hunting days harvesting 5 deer for a 23.8% success rate.It only took them on average 14.6 hunting days per deer harvested.

147 x-bows spent 682 hunting days harvesting 65 deer for a 44.2% success rate or 10.4 hunting days per deer.

Once again,very close to double the success rate with 40% less effort.


WOW!In 4 short years,xbow hunters went from being slightly outnumbered to outnumbering bowhunters 7 fold!The success rate for x-bows runs anywhere from a low of 60% better odds than bowhunters to a high of almost 250% better in 2004(13.4% vs 29.9% success)....and the x-bow hunters acheive this with less time spent afield every year,anywhere from 40% less hunting days to less than half the amount of hunting days to kill their deer in 2004.

So let's see,x-bows killed twice as many deer with half the amount of hunting effort,which indicates to me they are at least 4X more user-friendly and effective,yet according to the x-bow advocates,a bow is a bow is a bow,and an x-bow requires just as much stealth and skill??Wutever......

[HunterDave]

Personally, I don't think that 50 fps more would make much of a difference. Yes, with practice modern 350 fps crossbows can be accurate out to 100 yds at a target but the bolt won't be going that fast when it reaches there.

If you are a physicist, which I'm not, you could figure out how long it would take for the bolt to reach the target. I could be wrong but I think that a 350 fps crossbow or compound bow would have distance limitations simply because the deer would jump the string.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by grinr

So let's see,x-bows killed twice as many deer

So did the crossbow guys actually kill more animals than the bow guys... or just find more of the animals that they shot at?

[jungleboy]

blah blah blah typical anti crossbow propaganda ... it goes both ways , this is a useless thread honestly nobody is gonna change their minds on either side .

[grinr]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So did the crossbow guys actually kill more animals than the bow guys... or just find more of the animals that they shot at?

wow 209...that's pretty lame......but I suppose I shouldn't really expect any better though from an in-liner that probably fancies himself as a REAL muzzleloader hunter.

You know yer handle and yer x-bow stance really say alot about your generation-now,instant gratification self.

I see stats that say more deer were killed with crossbows but very little info as to the number of hunters. To calculate success rates you need to also know the number of hunters. A small detail I know.

As for Quebec rethinking crossbows, I'll give you that one because they are accepted as archery gear province wide now.

I'm still interested in the stats where harvest succcess is 3 and 4 times as much with crossbows.....you did say you could easily provide them....thanks!

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yes, the PSE T15i, I think that it's called, is about 400 fps. That is a higher velocity of any compound bow or other crossbow that that I know of.

I can't think of any reason why engineers can't come up with something like that for compound bows either though. They just aren't there yet. They did afterall design design a longbow with cams that exceeds the traditional longbow.

What's yer point?

My point is that I looked into the crystal ball and seen a killing machine that far exceeds what a compound bow can do.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by grinr

Also,your own examples only further to prove my point of boltgunners being much more successful than their vertical bow counterparts,thank you very much.
From the 1st link:
Ohio: In 2003-2004, 29,397 deer were taken with crossbows and 21,167 were taken with vertical equipment.(app. 30% more?)

- During the 2004-2005 harvest, crossbow hunters accounted for 33,175 kills, vertical archers took 24,023 deer(almost 50% more deer taken with x-bows)

Um....ah....YOU said, "I can easily provide stats that show x-bows having up to 4X and more the success rates over compound hunters." and you offer this as proof? Not only can you not determine the success rate from what you provided because the number of hunters aren't there, but it looks more like 30% and 50% not the 400% and + that you said you could provide! THAT'S IT! THAT'S THE PROOF!

As far as your stats about Quebec et al, I can pull s**t outamearse as well. You gotta link with that info.....and yes, I can read french.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I see stats that say more deer were killed with crossbows but very little info as to the number of hunters. To calculate success rates you need to also know the number of hunters. A small detail I know.

I assume you must be referring to the Ohio stats?Good question,I dunno,not my link?

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm still interested in the stats where harvest succcess is 3 and 4 times as much with crossbows.....you did say you could easily provide them....thanks!

I just posted them in the Quebec stats did I not?Pretty simple math really?Boltgunners enjoyed double the success rates and then some with less than half the hunting effort put forth.All things being equal,that translates to crossguns being 4X more effective where I went to school,but let me spell it out for ya.Assuming they had unlimited tags to fill,if the boltgunners spent as much time hunting as the vert bow hunters required to harvest a deer,it only makes sense that they would kill 4X as many deer instead of only double,yes?

[LongDraw]

Some guys choose to hunt with centerfire rifles that give up the ballistic advantage to a ML, and some have rifles with ballistic reticles, laser rangefinders and practice to 1000 yards. This is why we have definitions based on mechanics, not velocities.

Being mechanically held at full draw for an infinite amount of time make the crossbow non-archery equipment in Alberta. Try picking your nose while holding your compound bow at full draw. Ya small detail I know..

[grinr]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Um....ah....YOU said, "I can easily provide stats that show x-bows having up to 4X and more the success rates over compound hunters." and you offer this as proof? Not only can you not determine the success rate from what you provided because the number of hunters aren't there, but it looks more like 30% and 50% not the 400% and + that you said you could provide! THAT'S IT! THAT'S THE PROOF!

As far as your stats about Quebec et al, I can pull s**t outamearse as well. You gotta link with that info.....and yes, I can read french.

hey dude,they're stats from YOUR link....not mine,and no the hunter numbers are not provided for all of the years quoted in your link.....and yes,I DO have a link to MY stats....sorry,Quebec's stats,since no I did not pull them outta my *****.....and they're even translated(poorly) for the benefit of all.

Here ya go naysayers,see for yerself,page 19 of the report:

http://translate.google.ca/translate...26prmd%3Divnso

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Some guys choose to hunt with centerfire rifles that give up the ballistic advantage to a ML, and some have rifles with ballistic reticles, laser rangefinders and practice to 1000 yards. This is why we have definitions based on mechanics, not velocities.

Being mechanically held at full draw for an infinite amount of time make the crossbow non-archery equipment in Alberta. Try picking your nose while holding your compound bow at full draw. Ya small detail I know..

Likely the best arguement I've heard yet...glad to see I'm rubbing off on you

Originally Posted by grinr

I assume you must be referring to the Ohio stats?Good question,I dunno,not my link?



I just posted them in the Quebec stats did I not?Pretty simple math really?Boltgunners enjoyed double the success rates and then some with less than half the hunting effort put forth.All things being equal,that translates to crossguns being 4X more effective where I went to school,but let me spell it out for ya.Assuming they had unlimited tags to fill,if the boltgunners spent as much time hunting as the vert bow hunters required to harvest a deer,it only makes sense that they would kill 4X as many deer instead of only double,yes?

Must be that new math.....I'm still old school.

[packhuntr]

Gear junkies and tech heads,,, some real statustitians here, and unfortunately not a sniff.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by grinr

hey dude,they're stats from YOUR link....not mine,and no the hunter numbers are not provided for all of the years quoted in your link.....and yes,I DO have a link to MY stats....sorry,Quebec's stats,since no I did not pull them outta my *****.....and they're even translated(poorly) for the benefit of all.

Here ya go naysayers,see for yerself,page 19 of the report:

Stats are good as long as the person reading them can understand them.

So what's your link say, Quebecers don't know how to hunt with a compound bow?

[grinr]

LMAO,ya know it never ceases to amaze me the striking similairities between crossgunners and in-liners when it comes to trying to justify their muscling their way into lengthier seasons that were established to offset the disadvantages of hunting with less efficient equipment.It's like"Gee guys,we really like the idea of extra hunting opportunities and longer seasons,but we don't have the desire,skill,or dedication to use the prescribed equipment,so we think you should just simply allow us to use our techy toys and stfu and stop whining,cuz ya know a bow is a bow and a ML is a ML and bllah,blah,blah...."

GET OVER IT!!The same opportunities and lengthier seasons are available to anybody that wants to take the time to learn to become proficient with the prescribed equipment...what's stopping ya?


Here's an analogy for ya.Why don't all you x-bow wannabe bowhunters hop on an eastbound plane and visit any of the famous Atlantic Salmon rivers on the east coast.Now when you get there,you can explain to the provincial wardens and DFO how you demand to use spinning rods,baitcasters,crankbaits and casting spoons,3 pronged hooks,spinners and worms and whatever other gear you think should be allowed,because learning to cast a flyrod is just too damn hard and you don't have the time,dedication or skill to cast an unweighted fly to rising salmon,and besides,a fishing rod is a rod is a rod so what's the damn difference.LOL...lemme know how ya make out with that.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

My point is that I looked into the crystal ball and seen a killing machine that far exceeds what a compound bow can do.

Maybe, but why not the other way for compound bows?

When the pendulum swings too far to the right then I think that someone will step in and say.......No, that's far enough! Something like my wife with me at a good party.

There may come a time when a line will be drawn and perhaps we've already already passed that point. Maybe in the future we'll go back to the basics and the powers to be will say, archery season should not include any piece of equipment that has any mechanical advantage over a longbow. I figure that the system was already beat once with the inclusion of compound bows so natural progression should dictate that crossbows are the next logical step in the natural progression in the archery only season.

That's my deep thought for today.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Stats are good as long as the person reading them can understand them.

So what's your link say, Quebecers don't know how to hunt with a compound bow?

I thought you said you understood french?Hell,it's even translated for ya...what more do you want?

So what's my link say you ask?It says,in plain ENGLISH,that crossgunners in Quebec enjoy double the success rates with half the hunting effort put forth as vertical bowhunters....how many times do I have to explain it?

Here,I'll type reeeeeaaaaallllly slow for ya soooooo youuuuuu cannnnnn understaaaaaaaand.

TooooThousaaaaaand foooooooooour

bowhunters-13.4% success rate with 38.6 hunting days effort for every deer harvested.


Crossgunners-29.9% success rate with only 18 hunting days required to harvest each deer on average.



Soooooooooooo,that's MORE than TWICE the success rate for crossgunners vs. bowhunters with less than HALF the effort put forth to acheive that success.

All things being equal,that is,unlimited tags with equal effort from both bowhunters and boltgunners in terms of days afield,we could expect the crossgunners to kill 4x the amount of deer as the bowhunters instead of only the 2x that they actually did in half the time.


What's not to understand?New math?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by grinr

wow 209...that's pretty lame......but I suppose I shouldn't really expect any better though from an in-liner that probably fancies himself as a REAL muzzleloader hunter.

You know yer handle and yer x-bow stance really say alot about your generation-now,instant gratification self.

Hey, you are the one who claims the crossbow is so much more deadly than the compound bow. So unless you are saying that crossbow hunters are several times more skilled than the bow hunters it only follows that they recover more of what they shoot at. After all ranges are the same.
So what is better? Wounding more and loosing it and thumping your chest on how you are a real hunter or actually eating the meat? Haha

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Maybe, but why not the other way for compound bows?

When the pendulum swings too far to the right then I think that someone will step in and say.......No, that's far enough! Something like my wife with me at a good party.

There may come a time when a line will be drawn and perhaps we've already already passed that point. Maybe in the future we'll go back to the basics and the powers to be will say, archery season should not include any piece of equipment that has any mechanical advantage over a longbow. I figure that the system was already beat once with the inclusion of compound bows so natural progression should dictate that crossbows are the next logical step in the natural progression in the archery only season.

That's my deep thought for today.

HD, I've said it before on this thread.
Take away the compound....I'm way more in favor of that then the opposite ( allowing x-bows in )
If the arguement now was that compounds don't belong and that came to be.......I'd go out and buy a recurve.

The End.