Big sheep changes

[Keeleclimber]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"I will assume that the main goal of sport hunting is to provide recreational opportunities, not to maximize meat production or the number of animals killed.

Within that framework, I suggest that minimizing the impact of sport hunting on the evolution of the hunted species should be a major preoccupation of wildlife managers."



Who said this and when?

What is this person's current role in Alberta Bighorn Sheep management?

A dangerously powerful role who needs to be oust'd along with his gang of anti hunting buffoons.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Just can't let this go by unchallenged.

400 was put on a "temporary" full curl regulation after the 80's dieoff as a measure to limit ram harvest until the population rebounded. The full curl rule had nothing to do with trying to increase the age of harvested rams.

400 produced only four legal rams this year from a population of around 300. Not very encouraging....



Can you support your claim of hunters killing virtually all the legal rams each year?

According to the biologists, your claim is patently false. The only area where there is a documented concern with harvest dipping past the 50% threshold of new recruitment rams is the Clearwater sma (70-90%). However, provincial biologists are confirming that many of the Clearwater rams are migrating to the Cadomin area. The shortfall of rams in this sma is not likely from overharvest, but from the sinkhole effect caused by the artificial habitat at Cadomin.


To claim that we are killing "virtually all" legal 4/5 curl rams every year is simply wrong, and if being stated by a person with the correct information, a classic case of fearmongering.

Where are all the 4/5 Rams post season. They aren't showing up in the surveys. Hunters are killing most of them and another good chunk of them are not making the winter. Every area except Cadomin is below the target of 5% remaining post season.

As for the ram migration to Cadomin can you post a link to that. I would be interested in that.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Just can't let this go by unchallenged.

400 was put on a "temporary" full curl regulation after the 80's dieoff as a measure to limit ram harvest until the population rebounded. The full curl rule had nothing to do with trying to increase the age of harvested rams.

400 produced only four legal rams this year from a population of around 300. Not very encouraging....



Can you support your claim of hunters killing virtually all the legal rams each year?

According to the biologists, your claim is patently false. The only area where there is a documented concern with harvest dipping past the 50% threshold of new recruitment rams is the Clearwater sma (70-90%). However, provincial biologists are confirming that many of the Clearwater rams are migrating to the Cadomin area. The shortfall of rams in this sma is not likely from overharvest, but from the sinkhole effect caused by the artificial habitat at Cadomin.


To claim that we are killing "virtually all" legal 4/5 curl rams every year is simply wrong, and if being stated by a person with the correct information, a classic case of fearmongering.

Assuming this data is correct, does it account for native harvest, or just resident.

Out of a population of 260 sheep, 4 rams, all 8 plus years old is probably about right for that small zone when you account for the few more that get taken by native hunters each season.

[mountainascent]

So bdub, I just took a look at the sheep management plan from 1993. It has harvest numbers dating back to the 1950's. It appears to me that the harvest of sheep over the decades has cycles. In the 1970's, ram harvest was extremely low! And it bounced back to extream highs in the late 80's. Even before the peak, harvest numbers were constant for about 5 years at around 130. What I'm trying to get at is we can't compare the numbers we have now to what they where 20 years ago and say we have a problem. It's more like the natural cycle which has been going on for 60 years.

On another note. Can u say that a full curl rule is the best possible change to help our sheep population? I've been reading a few proposals and those proposals would defiantly help carrying young and mature rams over to the following year without going full curl.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by mountainascent

So bdub, I just took a look at the sheep management plan from 1993. It has harvest numbers dating back to the 1950's. It appears to me that the harvest of sheep over the decades has cycles. In the 1970's, ram harvest was extremely low! And it bounced back to extream highs in the late 80's. Even before the peak, harvest numbers were constant for about 5 years at around 130. What I'm trying to get at is we can't compare the numbers we have now to what they where 20 years ago and say we have a problem. It's more like the natural cycle which has been going on for 60 years.

On another note. Can u say that a full curl rule is the best possible change to help our sheep population? I've been reading a few proposals and those proposals would defiantly help carrying young and mature rams over to the following year without going full curl.

Worst thing we can do is offer proposals, without having any data to confirm or deny the problem. .. I've read some ridiculous proposals as well.... most are self serving....

I would be interested in the ones you have ...if you could send them to me

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"I will assume that the main goal of sport hunting is to provide recreational opportunities, not to maximize meat production or the number of animals killed.

Within that framework, I suggest that minimizing the impact of sport hunting on the evolution of the hunted species should be a major preoccupation of wildlife managers."



Who said this and when?

What is this person's current role in Alberta Bighorn Sheep management?

Im interested who is this person...they sound like peta....i hope they aren't making decisions on our sheep...?

[mountainascent]

I believe Jeff Kenteman is doing a study of the sync Cadomin has on surrounding areas. Those areas could possible be as far as 200km's from cadomin. And it could explain why those areas are sub 5%. If only the esrd could wait for the study to be done, because it could explain a lot.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by mountainascent

So bdub, I just took a look at the sheep management plan from 1993. It has harvest numbers dating back to the 1950's. It appears to me that the harvest of sheep over the decades has cycles. In the 1970's, ram harvest was extremely low! And it bounced back to extream highs in the late 80's. Even before the peak, harvest numbers were constant for about 5 years at around 130. What I'm trying to get at is we can't compare the numbers we have now to what they where 20 years ago and say we have a problem. It's more like the natural cycle which has been going on for 60 years.

On another note. Can u say that a full curl rule is the best possible change to help our sheep population? I've been reading a few proposals and those proposals would defiantly help carrying young and mature rams over to the following year without going full curl.

The trough coincided with the change to 4/5 curl from 3/4 curl with the bottom coming a couple years after the change (71) and then increasing over the years and reaching levels right at the highs previous to change.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by mountainascent

I believe Jeff Kenteman is doing a study of the sync Cadomin has on surrounding areas. Those areas could possible be as far as 200km's from cadomin. And it could explain why those areas are sub 5%. If only the esrd could wait for the study to be done, because it could explain a lot.

Has he released any info. Seem like a pretty far fetched idea, but who knows. that's alot of Rams supposedly migrating to Cadomin every year. Maybe a couple from a ways a way I could believe but not any great numbers.

[mountainascent]

Originally Posted by bdub

Has he released any info. Seem like a pretty far fetched idea, but who knows. that's alot of Rams supposedly migrating to Cadomin every year. Maybe a couple from a ways a way I could believe but not any great numbers.

Sorry I'm not sure if he has released any information yet.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by bdub

The trough coincided with the change to 4/5 curl from 3/4 curl with the bottom coming a couple years after the change (71) and then increasing over the years and reaching levels right at the highs previous to change.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ep-Jul1993.pdf

Look at the graph on page 24 MA.

[antlerguy]

However, provincial biologists are confirming that many of the Clearwater rams are migrating to the Cadomin area.

Please expand on how they are confirming this.

[Speckle55]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/hunti...tudy-1.1954926

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/bi...ests-1.2459623

David

[mountainascent]

I think it's page 34 bdub

[bdub]

Originally Posted by mountainascent

So bdub, I just took a look at the sheep management plan from 1993. It has harvest numbers dating back to the 1950's. It appears to me that the harvest of sheep over the decades has cycles. In the 1970's, ram harvest was extremely low! And it bounced back to extream highs in the late 80's. Even before the peak, harvest numbers were constant for about 5 years at around 130. What I'm trying to get at is we can't compare the numbers we have now to what they where 20 years ago and say we have a problem. It's more like the natural cycle which has been going on for 60 years.

On another note. Can u say that a full curl rule is the best possible change to help our sheep population? I've been reading a few proposals and those proposals would defiantly help carrying young and mature rams over to the following year without going full curl.

Can you post up the suggestions or the gist of them and how they are going to allow the carry over of Rams. Longer wait times for shooting younger sheep, monetary penalty for shooting younger sheep?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

Can you post up the suggestions or the gist of them and how they are going to allow the carry over of Rams. Longer wait times for shooting younger sheep, monetary penalty for shooting younger sheep?

Sounds very elitist...... and more of a hunter management plan..... or way to eliminate competition on the mountain....

It was a silly proposal, before a problem or information was presented. .... and has become a harmful distraction. ....

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Sounds very elitist...... and more of a hunter management plan..... or way to eliminate competition on the mountain....

It was a silly proposal, before a problem or information was presented. .... and has become a harmful distraction. ....

I think we all want the same thing which is to keep sheep on the mountain and continue hunting them. I do believe none of us can continue making other proposals or ideas without knowing the facts and that includes both sides full curl or not.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"I will assume that the main goal of sport hunting is to provide recreational opportunities, not to maximize meat production or the number of animals killed.

Within that framework, I suggest that minimizing the impact of sport hunting on the evolution of the hunted species should be a major preoccupation of wildlife managers."



Who said this and when?

What is this person's current role in Alberta Bighorn Sheep management?

ALL hunters, not just sheep hunters, should be aware of the mindset and philosophy within a growing segment of wildlife research. There are people within our wildlife management teams that desire and are working towards reducing hunting to a level of minimal harvest , for the sake of eliminating any potential human influence on "natural evolution".


The above quote is by Marco Festa-Bianchet, from an essay he wrote back in 2003.
He is currently entrusted with analyzing the Bighorn horn data, co-author of the soon to be released new bighorn management plan, and an integral part of the team that wrote the proposed regulation changes. He is also involved with the multitude of research papers claiming to have proven hunting induced genetic selection.

Every person concerned for the future of hunting should read this dissertation. Take note, this management philosophy is not just about sheep, the desire is to have it apply to elk, moose, pronghorns and deer too.

Exploitative Wildlife Management as a Selective Pressure
for Life-History Evolution of Large Mammals - Marco Festa-Bianchet

http://marco.recherche.usherbrooke.c...BChapter12.pdf




As Festa-Bianchet states, his proposed management ideal is based on sport hunting being a "participation" activity, where managing for harvest is not the goal, just being allowed the "opportunity" to hunt should be satisfactory.

Does ring a bell?

Starting with a published position in 2003 to greatly reduce the hunting of mature animals through a flury of unvetted genetic harm research papers and now an unqualified analysis of our ram harvest data, Festa-Bianchet is very close to reaching his goal of reducing sheep hunting down to an activity where participation without killing is perfection.

Happy hunting!

[flyguyd]

Thanks WB ^^^^^^^^ I think

Pretty scary read

[bdub]

Get out more tinfoil.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

MountainTI it is due to predators and lose of food do to Alberta putting out evey forest fire letting everything get overgrown in vegetation instead of food etibale for sheep and all other animals.

What is due to predators and loss of food?

[bdub]

Hey where did the post go where It was stated that the number of ewes at Cadomin couldn't have produce that number of Rams at Cadomin so they must have migrated there or is that on the other thread.

I would like to see that research or a link to that info as well.

So do the surrounding areas of jasper and south Willmore get sucked into the vortex of Cadomin as well?

Sounds like something akin to the Bermuda Triangle. Perhaps we should wait twenty years and do more studies to see if that's what's happening. Don't want to rush into anything you know.

[Roughneck Country]

[QUOTE=bdub;2748369]Where are all the 4/5 Rams post season. They aren't showing up in the surveys. Hunters are killing most of them and another good chunk of them are not making the winter. Every area except Cadomin is below the target of 5% remaining post season.

QUOTE]

Your just making that assumption, I don't think there has ever been proper research in each of the SMU's to conclude this. I really don't understand your full curl agenda.

[AlbertaCutthroat]

Originally Posted by bdub

Hey where did the post go where It was stated that the number of ewes at Cadomin couldn't have produce that number of Rams at Cadomin so they must have migrated there or is that on the other thread.

I would like to see that research or a link to that info as well.

So do the surrounding areas of jasper and south Willmore get sucked into the vortex of Cadomin as well?

Sounds like something akin to the Bermuda Triangle. Perhaps we should wait twenty years and do more studies to see if that's what's happening. Don't want to rush into anything you know.

I wonder if any Cadomin born rams are ever shot off of the mine site, or even further afield.... Not discrediting the sink theory totally (show me the science) but pretty simplistic thinking for a very complex issue. I also wonder how the legal rams 200 km away suddenly know it's time to head to Cadomin; I also wonder why it is the scewed sex ratio must be due to sink theory rather than the dozens of other factors at play.... Some answers south of town, they kill lots of "non-mine" sheep just prior to August 25th, concentrate on killing mature males by all accounts... hmmm, wonder if that would change licensed harvest over time.. Answers anyone?

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Just can't let this go by unchallenged.

400 was put on a "temporary" full curl regulation after the 80's dieoff as a measure to limit ram harvest until the population rebounded. The full curl rule had nothing to do with trying to increase the age of harvested rams.

400 produced only four legal rams this year from a population of around 300. Not very encouraging....



Can you support your claim of hunters killing virtually all the legal rams each year?

According to the biologists, your claim is patently false. The only area where there is a documented concern with harvest dipping past the 50% threshold of new recruitment rams is the Clearwater sma (70-90%). However, provincial biologists are confirming that many of the Clearwater rams are migrating to the Cadomin area. The shortfall of rams in this sma is not likely from overharvest, but from the sinkhole effect caused by the artificial habitat at Cadomin.


To claim that we are killing "virtually all" legal 4/5 curl rams every year is simply wrong, and if being stated by a person with the correct information, a classic case of fearmongering.

Yes that is the case with 400. So push for it to change back. You and I and almost everybody agree with this all being a sham. Dbud keeps using the arial surveys but as per the surveys there is also a marginal of error of 50-55% this was stated by the people collecting data. Think about it other than it bring done when most big rams are not present. It takes a experienced sheep hunter to get with in a few hundred yards with a spotting scope to tell what is legal or not with out the animals knowing you are there. So how the heck is some bio or anybody period going to be able to tell our of a chopper when the animals are under distress trying to get away form it? So how can anybody make policy when data has way to much room for error? I know I sure would not put my job on the line for it.

Originally Posted by Keeleclimber

A dangerously powerful role who needs to be oust'd along with his gang of anti hunting buffoons.

this is a huge problem. People like this should and will loose there jobs very soon as this is a conflict of interest.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Where are all the 4/5 Rams post season. They aren't showing up in the surveys. Hunters are killing most of them and another good chunk of them are not making the winter. Every area except Cadomin is below the target of 5% remaining post season.

As for the ram migration to Cadomin can you post a link to that. I would be interested in that.

You keep knocking all of us and ask for our data. Where is all of yours that actually shows anything? Post up complete scientific documents that are conclusive that we need to change things.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

[/B]

Can you post up the suggestions or the gist of them and how they are going to allow the carry over of Rams. Longer wait times for shooting younger sheep, monetary penalty for shooting younger sheep?

Prove there is a problem before you start trying to change things. We are talking sheep here not deer and ungulates that are similar too. It take a long time to figure them out and time to make it happen. I don't care if you are in Alberta or BC. BC ha had full curl rule for a long time. I know quite a few people that have seen zero rams that make full curl. They have seen rams which are legal in Alberta. So what does this do for Alberta's sheep hunters? Other than starting the steps to close hunting down for ever in Alberta?

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

ALL hunters, not just sheep hunters, should be aware of the mindset and philosophy within a growing segment of wildlife research. There are people within our wildlife management teams that desire and are working towards reducing hunting to a level of minimal harvest , for the sake of eliminating any potential human influence on "natural evolution".


The above quote is by Marco Festa-Bianchet, from an essay he wrote back in 2003.
He is currently entrusted with analyzing the Bighorn horn data, co-author of the soon to be released new bighorn management plan, and an integral part of the team that wrote the proposed regulation changes. He is also involved with the multitude of research papers claiming to have proven hunting induced genetic selection.

Every person concerned for the future of hunting should read this dissertation. Take note, this management philosophy is not just about sheep, the desire is to have it apply to elk, moose, pronghorns and deer too.

Exploitative Wildlife Management as a Selective Pressure
for Life-History Evolution of Large Mammals - Marco Festa-Bianchet

http://marco.recherche.usherbrooke.c...BChapter12.pdf




As Festa-Bianchet states, his proposed management ideal is based on sport hunting being a "participation" activity, where managing for harvest is not the goal, just being allowed the "opportunity" to hunt should be satisfactory.

Does ring a bell?

Starting with a published position in 2003 to greatly reduce the hunting of mature animals through a flury of unvetted genetic harm research papers and now an unqualified analysis of our ram harvest data, Festa-Bianchet is very close to reaching his goal of reducing sheep hunting down to an activity where participation without killing is perfection.

Happy hunting!

Exactly what I have been saying. Time to start asking our government officials some serious questions. Talking to ERSRD is a waste of time for all of us even though they DO work for us to manage OUR wildlife.

[Titanium79]

[QUOTE=Roughneck Country;2748794]

Originally Posted by bdub

Where are all the 4/5 Rams post season. They aren't showing up in the surveys. Hunters are killing most of them and another good chunk of them are not making the winter. Every area except Cadomin is below the target of 5% remaining post season.

QUOTE]

Your just making that assumption, I don't think there has ever been proper research in each of the SMU's to conclude this. I really don't understand your full curl agenda.

It is a personal opinion. Nothing scientific can back up any of this.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

You keep knocking all of us and ask for our data. Where is all of yours that actually shows anything? Post up complete scientific documents that are conclusive that we need to change things.

Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta, July 1993
2011 ESRD presentation in regards to Alberta Sheep populations by region.
Discussion Paper Draft, February 2012
Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta, February 2012
Aerial Survey March 2013, August 2013
Proposed Wildlife Management Change, 2013
Alberta Sheep Transplants, 1922 - 2008
Biological Support for Regulation Change
Conservation Challenges and Management Strategies for the 21st Century
Decrease in Horn Size and Increase in Age of "Trophy" Sheep in Alberta over 37 years
Harvest refuges do not buffer wild sheep from selective hunting
Data from selective harvests underestimate temporal trends in quantitative traits
Dec 3, 2014 AGMAG Meeting Agenda
Presentation from Reno's Jan 9, 2015 Alberta sheep stakeholders meeting:
By R. Prostebby, President, WSFA
WSFA/ESRD Meeting, January 9, 2015, Reno Nevada
Yukon Protocol



The sheep winter trend survey was flown from January 19 – 21, 2009. We observed 1,491 sheep on 14 winter ranges (Figure 5.2.1). Some observations were outside the known winter ranges (n = 8 groups totaling 156 sheep), particularly in WMU 414, 420 and 426, suggesting that winter ranges should be re‐adjusted over time. The population structure identified during the survey on known winter ranges was 732 ewes, 175 lambs, 339 rams, and 245 unclassified sheep. Rams were classified as 107 1⁄4 curl, 131 1⁄2 curl, 41 3⁄4 curl, 15 4/5 curl, 9 full curl, and 36 unclassified males. The herd composition was 23.9 lambs/100 ewes and 46.3 rams/100 ewes, with 1.6% of the total sheep that were classified as 4/5 or full curl. Results from this survey are similar to the results from previous surveys: in 2005 a grand total of 1482 sheep were counted and the composition was 45 rams/100 ewes/32 lambs. In 2007, a grand total of 1072 animals were counted and ratios were 36 rams/100 ewes/30 lambs.




From the Book Return of Royalty by Giest and Toweill on managing sheep hunting.
1. Focus harvest on the oldest segment of the population. This will need to be evaluated for each herd , since dispersal phenotypes do not live as long, on average as maintenance phenotypes. Experience in Alaska has shown that harvests can be increased when minimum harvestable age was raised from 3/4 curl to full curl.
2. Maintain a total harvest of less than 75 percent of the natural annual recruitment rate. For most herds that will mean less than 10 percent of the mature Rams in a herd, and it will mean that a number of Rams approximately equal to or slightly greater than the number of legally harvested Rams will die a natural death. This is essential to ensure that the harvest does not eliminate that segment of the population necessary to the social well-being of herds.


http://www.nwsgc.org/symposia.html

Mountain Sheep, A Study in Behaviour and Evolution, V. Geist


I can go on and on. Maybe start at the beginning of the thread I have posted a few other links. Or you can dig them up yourself . You could also pick up a phone and write a couple letters. Or by a book and do some reading.