Big sheep changes

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta, July 1993
2011 ESRD presentation in regards to Alberta Sheep populations by region.
Discussion Paper Draft, February 2012
Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta, February 2012
Aerial Survey March 2013, August 2013
Proposed Wildlife Management Change, 2013
Alberta Sheep Transplants, 1922 - 2008
Biological Support for Regulation Change
Conservation Challenges and Management Strategies for the 21st Century
Decrease in Horn Size and Increase in Age of "Trophy" Sheep in Alberta over 37 years
Harvest refuges do not buffer wild sheep from selective hunting
Data from selective harvests underestimate temporal trends in quantitative traits
Dec 3, 2014 AGMAG Meeting Agenda
Presentation from Reno's Jan 9, 2015 Alberta sheep stakeholders meeting:
By R. Prostebby, President, WSFA
WSFA/ESRD Meeting, January 9, 2015, Reno Nevada
Yukon Protocol



The sheep winter trend survey was flown from January 19 – 21, 2009. We observed 1,491 sheep on 14 winter ranges (Figure 5.2.1). Some observations were outside the known winter ranges (n = 8 groups totaling 156 sheep), particularly in WMU 414, 420 and 426, suggesting that winter ranges should be re‐adjusted over time. The population structure identified during the survey on known winter ranges was 732 ewes, 175 lambs, 339 rams, and 245 unclassified sheep. Rams were classified as 107 1⁄4 curl, 131 1⁄2 curl, 41 3⁄4 curl, 15 4/5 curl, 9 full curl, and 36 unclassified males. The herd composition was 23.9 lambs/100 ewes and 46.3 rams/100 ewes, with 1.6% of the total sheep that were classified as 4/5 or full curl. Results from this survey are similar to the results from previous surveys: in 2005 a grand total of 1482 sheep were counted and the composition was 45 rams/100 ewes/32 lambs. In 2007, a grand total of 1072 animals were counted and ratios were 36 rams/100 ewes/30 lambs.




From the Book Return of Royalty by Giest and Toweill on managing sheep hunting.
1. Focus harvest on the oldest segment of the population. This will need to be evaluated for each herd , since dispersal phenotypes do not live as long, on average as maintenance phenotypes. Experience in Alaska has shown that harvests can be increased when minimum harvestable age was raised from 3/4 curl to full curl.
2. Maintain a total harvest of less than 75 percent of the natural annual recruitment rate. For most herds that will mean less than 10 percent of the mature Rams in a herd, and it will mean that a number of Rams approximately equal to or slightly greater than the number of legally harvested Rams will die a natural death. This is essential to ensure that the harvest does not eliminate that segment of the population necessary to the social well-being of herds.


http://www.nwsgc.org/symposia.html

Mountain Sheep, A Study in Behaviour and Evolution, V. Geist


I can go on and on. Maybe start at the beginning of the thread I have posted a few other links. Or you can dig them up yourself . You could also pick up a phone and write a couple letters. Or by a book and do some reading.

LOL. Every single paper you have posted it is not scientific or conclusive. I any many other will be challenging SRD for all there mismanagement very soon. By the way dbud how is the grizzly bear study? Remember the same people cause that, CWD slaughter and screwing up our fisheries and many many other things. Sorry I and most don't buy any of there info anymore. To much lies and deceit.

[archeryelk29]

Although not an expert , I can certainly see the volatility of this topic......we all have this urge to show something for our efforts.... However if we really think about what draws us to nature and why we hunt, I think one would realize there is more to it ..... and now that I have taken a ram with my bow, I do believe that I see the point of sheep hunting in its purest form. It is about fulfillment.... the vast emotional roller coaster of ups and downs.... successes and failures ... challenging and pushing ourselves in the face of adversity even though failure seems immanent, but still believing success is possible ... proving to ourselves that I will not quit until I win .. whether it be arduous hikes in the mountains or hours and hours and hours in the tree-stand..... is that not success and fulfillment in and of itself. There is also the grandeur and awe of your surroundings, the peace and quiet away from life......to escape into a simpler time , a simpler life of man vs nature. The harvesting of the animal is such a small part of what we gleam from this experience we call hunting that if making it full curl allows the herds to be healthier ............... then so be it.

I get very philosophical when I have a couple glassses of wine.....

[bdub]

[QUOTE=Roughneck Country;2748794]

Originally Posted by bdub

Where are all the 4/5 Rams post season. They aren't showing up in the surveys. Hunters are killing most of them and another good chunk of them are not making the winter. Every area except Cadomin is below the target of 5% remaining post season.

QUOTE]

Your just making that assumption, I don't think there has ever been proper research in each of the SMU's to conclude this. I really don't understand your full curl agenda.

1. My first concern is with the health of the sheep herd and I believe harvesting to many young Rams is bad for the herd. Much research and data points to this which I believe. I would be good with a number of things which could increase the average age of Rams, such as double broomed over 4/5 curl.

2. I believe it is the government will almost certainly make changes imo. The data is pretty conclusive that we have a problem. They need to increase the age of harvested Rams and they can reasonable do this in two ways. One of these is draw. One of these is increase the age of Rams by increasing to full curl. Full curl is the easiest to manage, to much headache with other systems. Going on draw is absolutely the last thing I want to see. So to my way of thinking we have two reasonable options. Go on draw or full curl or something similar.

[huntwat]

dt

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

LOL. Every single paper you have posted it is not scientific or conclusive. I any many other will be challenging SRD for all there mismanagement very soon. By the way dbud how is the grizzly bear study? Remember the same people cause that, CWD slaughter and screwing up our fisheries and many many other things. Sorry I and most don't buy any of there info anymore. To much lies and deceit.

Nothing in wildlife research or this discussion is 100 percent conclusive. Nothing. They do the best they can do with the best they have. I am not going to change your mind on anything so lets just leave it at that. Not wasting my time any longer arguing with you. Have a good one.

[huntwat]

bt

[bdub]

[QUOTE=huntwat;2749789]

Originally Posted by bdub

I have been thinking of this bdub... What is wrong with a draw?
Still have general tags for full curl, for the whole province. But have a limited # of draw tags for any ram. (or 3/4 and bigger). This way, ideally, the old heavily broomed rams will get harvested. Everyone can still hunt, and possibly, have MORE opportunity?????

I think that would be a great solution to the problem. Retains opportunity to hunt and allows harvest of those short older Rams. Meets the management plans goal.

[300magman]

^^^^ That is a dang fine idea....best of both worlds....still have the hunting opportunity on full curl, but allow for the older broomed rams to be harvested. Even put an age on the draw tags, to eliminate joe blow from dropping a banana ram and focus that harvest on the old broomed ones. I personally really liek that idea.

[Titanium79]

[QUOTE=bdub;2749777]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

[/B]

1. My first concern is with the health of the sheep herd and I believe harvesting to many young Rams is bad for the herd. Much research and data points to this which I believe. I would be good with a number of things which could increase the average age of Rams, such as double broomed over 4/5 curl.

2. I believe it is the government will almost certainly make changes imo. The data is pretty conclusive that we have a problem. They need to increase the age of harvested Rams and they can reasonable do this in two ways. One of these is draw. One of these is increase the age of Rams by increasing to full curl. Full curl is the easiest to manage, to much headache with other systems. Going on draw is absolutely the last thing I want to see. So to my way of thinking we have two reasonable options. Go on draw or full curl or something similar.

Problem is the data collected in no way even in the slightest close to conclusive. If the government was challenged on this they would loose. Way to many grey areas to make policy and keep there jobs.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by 300magman

^^^^ That is a dang fine idea....best of both worlds....still have the hunting opportunity on full curl, but allow for the older broomed rams to be harvested. Even put an age on the draw tags, to eliminate joe blow from dropping a banana ram and focus that harvest on the old broomed ones. I personally really liek that idea.

I removed my post. It made too much sense!!

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Nothing in wildlife research or this discussion is 100 percent conclusive. Nothing. They do the best they can do with the best they have. I am not going to change your mind on anything so lets just leave it at that. Not wasting my time any longer arguing with you. Have a good one.

conclusive evidence is way better then the 50/50 that was stated by the people who did the survey. Must have missed that in the paper. Look past your nose. Don't stop reading all your data till the paper is 100% done. You are making your decisions based on emotion not facts. Facts won't lie when SRD has to disclose ALL the data an info.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by huntwat

I removed my post. It made too much sense!!

It does if you can find and show conclusive info there is a problem. Most people just want to get a sheep the first time out not knowing anything about sheep or how there whole life works. If you know this info you will find a big mature ram or rams. There is no actual problem just people are lazy and want everything with no work.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by 300magman

^^^^ That is a dang fine idea....best of both worlds....still have the hunting opportunity on full curl, but allow for the older broomed rams to be harvested. Even put an age on the draw tags, to eliminate joe blow from dropping a banana ram and focus that harvest on the old broomed ones. I personally really liek that idea.

Once again these are all ok ideas by everybody but I think you cannot contradict ourselves because with proposals on the table with data that is not there or accurate is the actual problem so let's not put the cart infont of the horse

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

There is no actual problem just people are lazy and want everything with no work.

HUH??? I don't know what people you are talking about. You were arguing to keep as is (4/5 curl). Which, in theory, is "easier" than full curl.
I would guess ,by this, you are lazy.???? I'm lost.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

It does if you can find and show conclusive info there is a problem. Most people just want to get a sheep the first time out not knowing anything about sheep or how there whole life works. If you know this info you will find a big mature ram or rams. There is no actual problem just people are lazy and want everything with no work.

Strongly agreed. There is a reason woman and children don't shoot Rams other than cadomin. Mostly. Kudos to those who do. i feel there is too many people who would like the entire province to be exactly like cadomin and that would be a shame. However maybe they would feature Alberta in Huntin fool.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by huntwat

HUH??? I don't know what people you are talking about. You were arguing to keep as is (4/5 curl). Which, in theory, is "easier" than full curl.
I would guess ,by this, you are lazy.???? I'm lost.

I was referring to the people pushing for full curl rule so SRD can grow a ram big enough for them. They need to work harder. I have seen more big rams as of late than ever before.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Strongly agreed. There is a reason woman and children don't shoot Rams other than cadomin. Mostly. Kudos to those who do. i feel there is too many people who would like the entire province to be exactly like cadomin and that would be a shame. However maybe they would feature Alberta in Huntin fool.

What the hell does Cadomin have to do with anything. Women and children. What are you guys trying to say here. Are you guys getting sucked into the Cadomin vortex. Haha. Great post you guys.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by bdub

What the hell does Cadomin have to do with anything. Women and children. What are you guys trying to say here. Are you guys getting sucked into the Cadomin vortex. Haha. Great post you guys.

Who is you guys ?? Also debating is healthy so thanks for it.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Strongly agreed. There is a reason woman and children don't shoot Rams other than cadomin. Mostly. Kudos to those who do. i feel there is too many people who would like the entire province to be exactly like cadomin and that would be a shame. However maybe they would feature Alberta in Huntin fool.

Problem is people look at Cadomin and Montana. There is a big problem to get alberta like Montana. We could transplant sheep all over Alberta in to the river breaks and other places but they will disappear. I agree with your comment even though I know a women that is a better sheep hunter than almost anybody I know. Kids can get it done as well.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

Who is you guys ?? Also debating is healthy so thanks for it.

Ok, well tell me how Cadomin and women and children fit into the debate.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

Problem is people look at Cadomin and Montana. There is a big problem to get alberta like Montana. We could transplant sheep all over Alberta in to the river breaks and other places but they will disappear. I agree with your comment even though I know a women that is a better sheep hunter than almost anybody I know. Kids can get it done as well.

This is why I said kudos to those who do. I know a few woman who are great sheep hunters and it's great to bring children into it but I'm talking majority. Everyone in there dog puts in for cadomin and if you say that it is not easier for a woman or child or man for that matter to shoot a book ram in cadomin verses anywhere else in AB then your lying.

[Acesneights]

Originally Posted by bdub

Ok, well tell me how Cadomin and women and children fit into the debate.

It fits into this debate because people who don't know what they are talking about think that making the province full curl will ultimately make bigger Rams on the mountain and will end up having a bunch of old broomed off Rams running around that we can't harvest. The end result will be the Rams that make full curl will be slobs with hunting oppurtinity and success taking a giant hit. I don't really care because I've shot a ram but it will hurt up and comers. I just wanna see some stats that are accurate so we can make an informed decision instead of shooting on the dark. If this goes through I will be the first to throw it back at you in five years. Our government has no accountability so it won't matter to them but the grizzly bear is the perfect example

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

This is why I said kudos to those who do. I know a few woman who are great sheep hunters and it's great to bring children into it but I'm talking majority. Everyone in there dog puts in for cadomin and if you say that it is not easier for a woman or child or man for that matter to shoot a book ram in cadomin verses anywhere else in AB then your lying.

No argument there. Just stating women and children can get it done. We are on the same page.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Acesneights

It fits into this debate because people who don't know what they are talking about think that making the province full curl will ultimately make bigger Rams on the mountain and will end up having a bunch of old broomed off Rams running around that we can't harvest. The end result will be the Rams that make full curl will be slobs with hunting oppurtinity and success taking a giant hit. I don't really care because I've shot a ram but it will hurt up and comers. I just wanna see some stats that are accurate so we can make an informed decision instead of shooting on the dark. If this goes through I will be the first to throw it back at you in five years. Our government has no accountability so it won't matter to them but the grizzly bear is the perfect example

Oh and you and tit79 know what you are talking about. Really. I have a hard time making sense out what you guys are writing most of the time. You guys are just spouting off the anti change rhetoric. Haven't heard one thing out of you two other than the data is all BS and we should just stick to the status quo because only women and children can kill Rams at Cadomin type crap. Doesn't even make sense. Show me some pics of all these big mature Rams. I call bs on that. Show me some other evidence to change my mind.

Huntwat had the best suggestion on here yet with the full curl and draw for broomed Rams idea.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Oh and you and tit79 know what you are talking about. Really. I have a hard time making sense out what you guys are writing most of the time. You guys are just spouting off the anti change rhetoric. Haven't heard one thing out of you two other than the data is all BS and we should just stick to the status quo because only women and children can kill Rams at Cadomin type crap. Doesn't even make sense. Show me some pics of all these big mature Rams. I call bs on that. Show me some other evidence to change my mind.

Huntwat had the best suggestion on here yet with the full curl and draw for broomed Rams idea.

Hey buddy were is all this info that states we have a problem? All I have seen is data arial surveys that is not a factual count for multiple reasons. I would say think about it but you are having a hard time thinking because you just keep posting info that is out of a book or a paper a anti hunter wrote. I am not picking on anybody if they can or can't do a hunt. I stated YOU and others pushing for full curl to get your book sheep even thigh you guys say you don't care if you never shoot another sheep. Maybe you should not help out other go kill just legals then. People as such are the only problem with our sheep. Sheep number and ram harvest is constant. This states things are fine. Only ungulate in Alberta to stay constant in the last 30+ years. Do you understand that or do you need me to s l o w it down for you. Actually I think you are arguing just to be a troll or to see your post count go up.

[bdub]

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Feb03-2012.pdf


http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ep-Jul1993.pdf


Justin C have a look at page 4 on the first link and page 24 on the second link. Is the ram harvest consistent? Sheep populations have been consistent, ram harvests are well below the highs. 25 percent below. Is that the definition of consistent?

And Buddy, all the info that states we have a problem is presented earlier. Maybe read it.

I've tried helping out a few guys since moving here harvest sheep. Of the Rams they killed none were just legals. Perhaps you should stop flapping your lips and telling folks what I supposedly want or do or my motives like you know me.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Feb03-2012.pdf


http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ep-Jul1993.pdf


Justin C have a look at page 4 on the first link and page 24 on the second link. Is the ram harvest consistent? Sheep populations have been consistent, ram harvests are well below the highs. 25 percent below. Is that the definition of consistent?

And Buddy, all the info that states we have a problem is presented earlier. Maybe read it.

I've tried helping out a few guys since moving here harvest sheep. Of the Rams they killed none were just legals. Perhaps you should stop flapping your lips and telling folks what I supposedly want or do or my motives like you know me.

I find it extremely funny are trying to figure out who I am to try and discredit me. My name is ? And I am from ? Good try though. You keep reading but not listening to anything anybody has to say. I know what I see every year when out looking for sheep. It sure is a different picture than what is being portrayed. You are right I do not know you in the slightest and don't care to ever know you as you don't want to listen to anybody or anything because you are a know it all. Until I see factual data I am not buying this. When SRD provides us with data that is hard to argue I will be ok with some changes. Until then good bye dbud. I will be talking to people that actually matter to this cause.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

I find it extremely funny are trying to figure out who I am to try and discredit me. My name is ? And I am from ? Good try though. You keep reading but not listening to anything anybody has to say. I know what I see every year when out looking for sheep. It sure is a different picture than what is being portrayed. You are right I do not know you in the slightest and don't care to ever know you as you don't want to listen to anybody or anything because you are a know it all. Until I see factual data I am not buying this. When SRD provides us with data that is hard to argue I will be ok with some changes. Until then good bye dbud. I will be talking to people that actually matter to this cause.

Goodby to you to JC.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Goodby to you to JC.

Are you really that slow? I know who I am and that is not it.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

Are you really that slow? I know who I am and that is not it.

Ok. How bout some pics of these big Rams you've killed or seen then. I'm not expecting to see any, mind you.

Later bud