Carrying of sidearms

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So no innocent bystanders were hurt, and the criminals were driven away. Of course the people making up the fictitious examples where the crooks take away the defenders gun, or where bystanders are shot, aren't going to accept that this can happen, even though it is true.

But we already associated in canada currently the threat is near .00001 % we also dont know in this case if the old bhoy (as I would suspect) is an ex marine or other past serving member who I have on many occasions suggested im fine with carrying and you've attacked

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So no innocent bystanders were hurt, and the criminals were driven away. Of course the people making up the fictitious examples where the crooks take away the defenders gun, or where bystanders are shot, aren't going to accept that this can happen, even though it is true.

So they were robbing then leaving. No one was getting killed. I don't sympathize for the robbers and care less if they got hurt.

Still the point of focus is having a gun to protect your family from being killed or seriously harmed.

This example while cool...is not a good one. The fact it was from 2012 and there are very few if almost zero incidents of CCW saving lives is very telling of the fear excuse.

[Wild&Free]

I would like to draw everyone's attention to a previous thread on this topic

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=215092

you will notice as it progress how myself and swifty220 turned the discussion from the I'm right your wrong mentality typical in these threads to actually strategizing on how to change things. strategies very similar to the request for support thread on changing ATC permitting.

you will also notice how some member did not contribute very much to those strategies.

also had a post buried at the end of the last page incase you missed it as this thread is quiet busy atm.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

once more proving all those guns are mostly useless against criminals ?? Im merely show one point in one instance. There are of course many ..so once more to the google unarmed in a firearms rich environment whew you guys are really pulling at straws to defend you point

The information is accurate. The person grasping at straws is... YOU!

Gun Free Zone.... lol, perfect place for a loon to conduct a mass shooting.

Why when confronted with facts do you obfuscate the issue at hand?

Is it because you are afraid of facing the truth? Or afraid of having the responsability for another person's life?

Either way, it smacks of either an unnatural prejudice, unreasoning fear, or outright cowardice?

I am not sure which demon you wrest with, but I have no illusions of mine

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by Got Juice?

The information is accurate. The person grasping at straws is... YOU!

Gun Free Zone.... lol, perfect place for a loon to conduct a mass shooting.

Why when confronted with facts do you obfuscate the issue at hand?

Is it because you are afraid of facing the truth? Or afraid of having the responsability for another person's life?

Either way, it smacks of either an unnatural prejudice, unreasoning fear, or outright cowardice?

I am not sure which demon you wrest with, but I have no illusions of mine

oh how childish and weak ... ive actually had to deal with an armed assailant , kansas city shuffle works every time. So your well wrong . And as in a previous post where were all the ccw folks that could not walk a block to stop a single mass shooting ???

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So they were robbing then leaving. No one was getting killed. I don't sympathize for the robbers and care less if they got hurt.

Still the point of focus is having a gun to protect your family from being killed or seriously harmed.

This example while cool...is not a good one. The fact it was from 2012 and there are very few if almost zero incidents of CCW saving lives is very telling of the fear excuse.

Now who is reading minds. You have no idea what the may have happened if he had not intervened.

It is obvious that the CCW prevented injury and/or death, exactly the point of CCW.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

oh how childish and weak ... ive actually had to deal with an armed assailant , kansas city shuffle works every time. So your well wrong . And as in a previous post where were all the ccw folks that could not walk a block to stop a single mass shooting ???

I do not know where the CCW Folks were... but we do see what can happen when 911 is called and we sit... do nothing and wait to be ''rescued'' by the guys... WITH GUNS!!!!

More people die. Tragic. I see there is a movement in the USA to equip all educators with guns... and they gather more and more support.

Kansas City Shuffle? Great line off the movie 'Lucky Number Slevin'

Entertaining, but not real life.

Next!

[elkhunter11]

This example while cool...is not a good one.

You say that it's not a good example, because it doesn't support your position. It really happened, that alone makes it a much better example than any of your what if scenarios.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You say that it's not a good example, because it doesn't support your position. It really happened, that alone makes it a much better example than any of your what if scenarios.

After you argue "what if" there were more guns present during the recent spree of murders in Edmonton and Calgary and a few other scenarios.

Is that a sound counter argument?

[tikybear]

Fish gunner. On the contrary i do not live in fear i live prepared. If i had any fear it would be having some one like you at my back spraying fish poop at the bad guys i am just going by your handle. I was a logger and a truck driver for most likely more years then you have been a live. I also have 4 chain saws. They all start with one pull. If your going to make remarks about people get to know them and at least read there feed back. Just goes to show u that opinions r like asxholes ever one has one. Some have no scents. If you do not want to protect your self leave the people alone that do. You can PM me if you like.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

After you argue "what if" there were more guns present during the recent spree of murders in Edmonton and Calgary and a few other scenarios.

Is that a sound counter argument?

Skewed statistics, and 'what if" scenarios is what most of this thread has been about, but actual examples are always more valid that "what if" scenarios.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Skewed statistics, and 'what if" scenarios is what most of this thread has been about, but actual examples are always more valid that "what if" scenarios.

What about the valid examples provided by Sundance that point in the other direction?

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

The points in the blog are telling not a single mass shooting has been stopped by an armed responder in 13 yrs. Yikes all those guns ..so little help.

Funny, I just Googled "Concealed Carry Stops Shooter", and huge list of examples came up. I'm sure you have your computer set to block any information that contradicts your views, but honest, it has happened. What was even harder to believe was the fact that the cases that I read about happened without the mass slaughter of innocent bystanders by the CCW holder (something that Sundance would never acknowledge as even possible)....

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

What about the valid examples provided by Sundance that point in the other direction?

I didn't see him post anything but cherry picked stats which he used to base assumptions on. I must have missed the videos where the gunmen took the firearms away from the defender and shot him with it. I also never saw the video where all of the innocent bystanders were killed because a citizen with a handgun intervened.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Skewed statistics, and 'what if" scenarios is what most of this thread has been about, but actual examples are always more valid that "what if" scenarios.

So facts. A guy scared off robbers with a gun. Didn't save a life


Again


Crime is falling in Canada

US gun culture has significantly higher gun murders than Canada

Guns are used for hunting and sport shooting with no issues in Canada.

There is no evidence guns protect people from violent acts....hence higher murder rate in US

Accidental deaths due to US gun culture is 2 kids a week.

To prevent a crime with a gun...you need it in hand as crimes such as murder are almost always opportunistic and most are known to the victim. Walking around with a gun pointed is not practical.

Statistically speaking you are more likely to win a lottery than run into a situation where you need a gun to protect yourself...have it accessible in time to help...have the skill to use it and not screw up.

Please feel free to response or we can talk again about random guess scenarios.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I didn't see him post anything but cherry picked stats which he used to base assumptions on. I must have missed the videos where the gunmen took the firearms away from the defender and shot him with it. I also never saw the video where all of the innocent bystanders were killed because a citizen with a handgun intervened.

You can't answer a factual question when you only have emotional answers. You ask yet rarely provide.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So facts. A guy scared off robbers with a gun. Didn't save a life


Again


Crime is falling in Canada

US gun culture has significantly higher gun murders than Canada

Guns are used for hunting and sport shooting with no issues in Canada.

There is no evidence guns protect people from violent acts....hence higher murder rate in US

Accidental deaths due to US gun culture is 2 kids a week.

To prevent a crime with a gun...you need it in hand as crimes such as murder are almost always opportunistic and most are known to the victim. Walking around with a gun pointed is not practical.

Statistically speaking you are more likely to win a lottery than run into a situation where you need a gun to protect yourself...have it accessible in time to help...have the skill to use it and not screw up.

Please feel free to response or we can talk again about random guess scenarios.

Crime rates are also falling in the USA. How can that be with so many firearms in the USA?

There are more large cities, more gangs, more organized crime, and more slums in the USA, so of course there are more murders in the USA.

Actually there are accidental shootings while hunting in Canada every year, so there are some issues.

Of course there are more accidental deaths due to firearms in the USA, they have a population ten times as large as ours.

Your supposition about having to walk around with a gun pointed in order to use a gun in a defensive manner is proven incorrect by the video of the man running off the robbers.

People do win the lotteries, it only takes one to change your life forever.

There you go, every point as valid as yours.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You can't answer a factual question when you only have emotional answers. You ask yet rarely provide.

Pot ,meet kettle.

[Wild&Free]

There are more large cities, more gangs, more organized crime, and more slums in the USA, so of course there are more murders in the USA.

Here you identify the largest source of crime in any developed or developing country.

How does carrying a handgun change these conditions?

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So facts. A guy scared off robbers with a gun. Didn't save a life


Again


Crime is falling in Canada

US gun culture has significantly higher gun murders than Canada

Guns are used for hunting and sport shooting with no issues in Canada.

There is no evidence guns protect people from violent acts....hence higher murder rate in US

Accidental deaths due to US gun culture is 2 kids a week.

To prevent a crime with a gun...you need it in hand as crimes such as murder are almost always opportunistic and most are known to the victim. Walking around with a gun pointed is not practical.

Statistically speaking you are more likely to win a lottery than run into a situation where you need a gun to protect yourself...have it accessible in time to help...have the skill to use it and not screw up.

Please feel free to response or we can talk again about random guess scenarios.

Apparently your computer is set to block any information that does not suit you. If you did have the ability to Google "Concealed Carry Stops Shooter", you would have a multitude of examples that have happened which you continually claim Never Could....

Again you reffer to "Odds of winning the lottery" being higher than needing CCW, yet you can laugh off a statistic stating you ar far more likely the die in an MVA than to be affected or injured by someone with a Carry Permit. Although eloquently worded, you display great hypocrisy by your "only my examples are valid" approach.

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Here you identify the largest source of crime in any developed or developing country.

How does carrying a handgun change these conditions?

It potentially gives you the option of being something other than a victim when facing these conditions....

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

It potentially gives you the option of being something other than a victim when facing these conditions....

But the problem still persists. I get what you're saying, but carrying a handgun when faced with these problems is like being the little dutch boy, running out of fingers and toes to plug the holes.

you see this issue boils down to two distinct and valid positions.
protecting yourself from harm and preventing others from needlessly harming others.

the conditions which lead to the issues of urban density, gang culture and organized crime are lack of good education, lack of access to higher education and an inability to participate in commerce. as a result the need to protect oneself from desperate uneducated underemployed segments of society rises.

one ideology, the liberal one, seeks to improve the conditions of this segment in order to reduce the inclination to resort to crime as well as assist those who've gone that route break the cycle. the other ideology, the conservative one, seeks to corral this segment of society while promoting a "free for all" as it were(poor choice of words I know, but I don't know how else to describe it) in people being able to uphold law and order themselves.

The "hug a thug"( I dislike that term myself, but when in Rome) liberal approach does benefit many people, but is also abused leading to gross waste of the public treasury. The conservative approach would lead to, in some cases in some areas(I wasn't kind on the liberal side either), a rise in vigilantism and perhaps a culture of feuds, revenge or honor crimes.

more guns is not the answer, neither is less guns. both have been shown to have a very negative side and neither will improve things in short order. A more centrist approach is required where both tactics are used, but not to the full degree that either side advocates and not all at once. We as a society need to address the issues of this segment of society to raise them up, with a strong degree of fiscal responsibility and accountability as well as give people the assistance, freedom, and tools required to better protect themselves within reason so has to not lead to the harm of bystanders as well as some measures to reduce the likelyhood of escalation by enforcing personal liability for one's own actions whether they are the aggressor or defender.

[Got Juice?]

Just the choice to carry would be fine once a person met a fair criteria.

I don't believe I would carry all that much.

I have work a gun and walked around in it all day long. The novelty wears thin after a few hours.

Might have had something to do with the weight of what I was carrying (STI APERIO) is not an ideal choice

My own personal threshold? Carrying is all fine and dandy, but would I... could I ever use it if I had to on my fellow man?

That's the hardest question of all.

I don't hunt large game. Love the meat, love the thrill of the stalk, love processing etc. But I cannot pull the trigger. I have a hard time shooting a 'Yote, but no problems on a Cougar.

That would be my biggest fear in the responsability of carrying. Being able to stop something tragic, but unable to take ultimate action if the situation required.

And until that situation happened, there is no way practical to test it.

[Wild&Free]

Got Juice, that was a very balanced, poignant and honest post.

I feel much the same way. I opt to not pull the trigger far more often then I choose to. My prefered weapon of choice when hunting is a camera.

Respect.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Got Juice, that was a very balanced, poignant and honest post.

I feel much the same way. I opt to not pull the trigger far more often then I choose to. My prefered weapon of choice when hunting is a camera.

Respect.

Thank You. I really am pro-carry (Open Carry Please)...but that one question that can never be answered unless in the situation... is too haunting to ignore.

Recalling a bullet is as easy as Un-Ringing a bell.

My biggest fear realized: The ability and tool at hand to stop a tragedy, but unable to do so.

How would I be able to live with those consequences either way? Oh sure, you could justify the saving of innocent lives by your actions, but YOU stopped it *HERO*.... I would see that image (shooting the bad guy) for the rest of my life, and in never ending nightmares of 'What if' second guesses.

As a competition shooter (30K Pistol fired per year), I remember every target I have engaged from every match I have competed in. Most telling are the white 'NO SHOOT' (AKA FRIENDLY) Targets. Ya, you drop points from hitting them, but in real life... you also nailed a non-combatant.

Asked, and self answered. Makes me ill to think about it.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

A law abiding citizen is a law abiding citizen up until the moment they are not. it has already been established in this thread that no amount of lawful screening is able to weed out those who have, or may have in the future nefarious intent.

you probably have forgotten about other go a rounds on this topic where I have stated that I believe current regulations are too restrictive, I'm of a very similar position to Rugatika on this (Yes Rugs, yet again we agree )

I have offered justifications for why the laws are the way they are and like Sundance has stated it is up to the pro ccw crowd to convince the rest of the population to change things. I am playing devils advocate, just as Sundance is, to hone your abilities to do this. Yet have been insulted, had my family and upbringing called into question, and treated without respect for it and I am one vote that would be more likely to support the initiative.

So if this behavior is what the rest of Canada will face, you guys have a long uphill battle ahead of you.

In other words you are a self admitted troll, with nothing better to do than be a PITA to the grownups?

[Talking moose]

I'm confused. Would the right to carry a handgun be a good thing or a bad thing? Discuss.
Seriously though both sides have some good points. Pretty good level headed debate going. Kudos boys.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Crime rates are also falling in the USA. How can that be with so many firearms in the USA?

There are more large cities, more gangs, more organized crime, and more slums in the USA, so of course there are more murders in the USA.

Actually there are accidental shootings while hunting in Canada every year, so there are some issues.

Of course there are more accidental deaths due to firearms in the USA, they have a population ten times as large as ours.

Your supposition about having to walk around with a gun pointed in order to use a gun in a defensive manner is proven incorrect by the video of the man running off the robbers.

People do win the lotteries, it only takes one to change your life forever.

There you go, every point as valid as yours.

The differential is the murder rate is way higher in the US. That is the true normalized incidence of violence. crime is falling in both countries however the US is much higher than ours.

Had the robbers walked rit in and started shooting there would of been a far different outcome. You are basing your whole premise on a rare event that was not violent...just robbery.

All those extra guns. All the open and concealed carries have not made the US safer than Canada.

Incidental deaths will be prorated to our population. For every accidental death...should to a live be saved at the other end?

Your points are very weak at best.

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I'm confused. Would the right to carry a handgun be a good thing or a bad thing? Discuss.
Seriously though both sides have some good points. Pretty good level headed debate going. Kudos boys.

There are no good guns, there are no bad guns.

The only morality a gun has is the person wielding it.

I don't believe Canadians need the RIGHT to carry. I do believe that we need the Priveledge to carry if we so choose, and pass a competency test, pay the gov't another 150.00 per year for the license.

If you have an RPAL, CSIS, and the RCMP have already vetted you when you applied for it.

If you can carry a Kukhuri downtown, in a bank, in a library, in the post office, in Tim Horton's and nobody raises an eyebrow. Yes it is in plain view, but not seen as a threat. Why is that?

Because you don't pull it out for no reason and 'play with it'. Same with Open Carry. IMHO

[Got Juice?]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

All those extra guns. All the open and concealed carries have not made the US safer than Canada.

As a generalization, yes the USA has more crime than Canada.

Until you look at the INDIVIDUAL STATES that have CCW/OCW Laws.

Those states have LESS CRIME than Canada... especially violent crime.(Texas, Montana etc)

Now, the states with no CCW/OCW Laws have crime rates that are 4-12 times what the CCW/OCW states are . (California Wash DC etc)

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr