" Idle No More"

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

They are doing this to, #1. hide corruption. #2. to pay off the vocal minority of chiefs, administrators and band council members who write the cheques and dole out this money, mostly divided among themselves to the detriment of the vast majority of band members who it's ment for. If you can keep the squeeky wheels satiated and not look to hard at how this money is administered you can keep the flames down to a smoulder. The Indian affairs bureaucracy is so stinky I can smell the rot from here. Until the ordinary grass roots natives wise up and hold their upper hierarchy accountable nothings going to change. Unfortunately most of them are in the dark or are powerless to influence the band councils and the gov't is content with the status quo..

I've got no arguement with what you said. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any will to change the status quo!! (pardon the pun). ;-)

[CantThinkOfAName]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Those are the only differences between those two towns...really? It's these kinds of statements that rile me up!! Are you blind? We're you born on another planet? You didn't learn anything about reserves in school? For crying out loud.

So what are the specific differences between the towns? Start listing them off for us.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by CantThinkOfAName

So what are the specific differences between the towns? Start listing them off for us.

Income levels, unemployment, home ownership, education, living conditions, exposure to drugs and alcohol, self esteem levels, segregation, systemic racism, employment opportunities....and the list goes on. Tax base, contaminated water....government oppression, bad dietary practices....

[dale7637]

I don't know much about bill c-45, and I won't pretend to.

I do know that something needs to change. I have spent enough time on reserves and around the residents to know that change is needed.

Canuck, before you crawl down my throat, come live where I do for a couple of years and then chime in. We cannot compare your southern reserves to our northern remote reserves. They aren't even in the same class.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Good post!! The problem with the media is they don't necessarily report what you should be hearing....most of the time they report things to influence you towards the political agenda of the owners.

Bingo!

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

I don't know where your getting your information, but I can tell you I know accountants that make their living auditing reserve finances. It's apparent to me that governments know what is actually happening....and they are keeping it closed to public view. The question is are they doing this to hide corruption, or so they can use it as a tool to maintain the current public perception of what is happening ??

They should start auditing Indian Affairs itself. Not to say there isn't corruption within chief and council but lets not stop there, Indian Affairs is another money drain.


People should really inform themselves as to what First Nations really get for free because the ones I know who are hard working tax paying people sure would love to get some of these freebies that everyone here is discussing. Lots of misinformation going around

[leo]

I too have no clue as to bill C45, or what the main reason to protest may be. I do know that you will not gain the support of many Canadians by blockading a major highway during Christmas break! I think the organizers of this protest should rally it as a Canadian protest, not just a native one, and not inconvenience travellers by closing a road. JMO.

[REPO]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Income levels, unemployment, home ownership, education, living conditions, exposure to drugs and alcohol, self esteem levels, segregation, systemic racism, employment opportunities....and the list goes on. Tax base, contaminated water....government oppression, bad dietary practices....

Income Levels? Of the natives that I personally know that work, they make way more than the rest of the guys as they get the same wage, and pay NO tax on their income.

Unemployment? This is a choice. There are tons of jobs out there, you just have to actually try ang get one of them.

Home ownership? Are they not offered free houses?

Education? All the reserves in my area have thir own schools, with several different native assistance/advancement organizations in town.

Living Conditions? Ummmmm......why is this so bad? Who is wrecking the houses, etc? A vast majority seem to be driving brand new trucks, including Escalades.

Drugs & Alcohol? Everyone is exposed to this! Just go down to your local high school and have a look around! LOL

Self Esteem? Seems this is a problem everywhere. Many reports on the news reporting on teen suicide.

Segregation? I think this is what the native community is working towards.

Racism? From what I see locally, it is the other way around!

Employment opportunity? Again speaking from a local area, I would challenge you to find an employer in any major industry turning away qualified individuals of ANY race.

Tax base? Who pays taxes again?

Contaminated water? Not sure how to comment on this one. There are water treatment plants on the reserves that I am familiar with, possibly not others?

Gov't oppression? The gov't offers way more assistance to the native communities than anyone else.

Bad dietary practices? Really? how is this anyone else's fault but that if the individual?




I have no issues with the native community and have never had a problem working along side or even for them in the past. But you have to see that it is not hard for someone to look at what they are offered and given, then see how they choose to use it, and not feel offended. I see guys working side by side, getting the exact same wage, but one doesn't pay tax. He also didn't pay for any of his education, the required tools for the job, or the brand new truck he is driving to get to work. How is this fair again?

With any organization I think it's great that they can pull together and hold ralleys, etc. but when doing things like blocking roads, all that does is promote racism, as I would guess that most words uttered by impacted individuals of the road block are not words such as "Good For Them! Look at Them Pull Together!"

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Tech

Seeing someone climb out of a lexus in a buisness suit and throw on a headress makes me think I should show up to work in a viking helmet and claim my ancestral right to build boats all day and pillage england.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Those are the only differences between those two towns...really? It's these kinds of statements that rile me up!! Are you blind? We're you born on another planet? You didn't learn anything about reserves in school? For crying out loud.

There are lots of differences between those two towns, but I am sure if I list them, you would not like the list I come up with.

Yes I did learn about reserves in school. I do feel sorry how the white's forced natives out of their way of life. But that does not give them the right to continue to waste their collective lives doing nothing but complaining about how bad they have it.

I have spent some time on a few reserves, and around a few too. I have come away with a disrespect for the average citizen on the reserve. That is because what I saw was despicable. Lazy, ungrateful, and uneducated, despite all the money that is spent to support these people. The biggest thing I saw though, was that it was the Native band doing it to their own people.

Now before you go and label me a total racist, I have two treaty status children. I also have a few native friends whom I would die to protect if I had too. I also willingly support the native way of life of hunting and fishing for sustenance, and to carry on their culture. I do not support the current "me first" generation that expects to be supported with cigarettes and booze, skidoos, Ford Trucks, and free houses to destroy. This is what most non natives complain about, because this is what is seen. These natives that do this make it hard for the rest of them to get sympathy for their plight.

I have tremendous respect for some of the Band leaders that have cut back their generous salaries, and put that money back into the band. Those are true leaders. If all the bands had leaders like that, I do not think there would be many non natives who complain about the money spent supporting the reserves.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Income levels, unemployment, home ownership, education, living conditions, exposure to drugs and alcohol, self esteem levels, segregation, systemic racism, employment opportunities....and the list goes on. Tax base, contaminated water....government oppression, bad dietary practices....

And how is it my fault these people choose drugs? I was exposed to drugs too, but I chose not to do them.

Education is free to natives. All they need to do is actually attend. I have to pay for mine.

Unemployment? I have to travel to work. Many others do too. Why is it any different for natives?

The homes the natives live in often are run down, not because of outside interference, but because of their own apathy towards their home. I fix my door when it is loose. I repaint my fence or walls when they start to peel. I replace windows and the screens when they get broken. I don't leave dilapidated cars up on blocks infront of my house. But these are things that people see when driving through most reserves. Why can't the natives take responsibility for their own home?

Employment opportunities and discrimination? Please. How many job applications have you filled out that specifically ask if you are native, with the sole purpose of putting your application to the top due to affirmative action? I get work because I work, and have a work ethic. Not because of government legislation.

Tax base? Tax free if you live and work on the reserve. I don't get that.

Contaminated water? How is that my fault? I don't dump chemicals on the reserve. But the natives living there do. How can the non natives be responsible for that?

Bad dietary practices? How is that my fault? Or the government's fault? There are grocery stores on reserves and they are stocked with proper food. However if those natives who suffer from bad dietary practices actually practiced proper meal preparation, then they would not suffer dietary problems. How about using that ground around their free homes to grow a garden?

There are many issues that natives do have, however many of them are of their own doing.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by REPO

Income Levels? Of the natives that I personally know that work, they make way more than the rest of the guys as they get the same wage, and pay NO tax on their income.

Unemployment? This is a choice. There are tons of jobs out there, you just have to actually try ang get one of them.

Home ownership? Are they not offered free houses?

Education? All the reserves in my area have thir own schools, with several different native assistance/advancement organizations in town.

Living Conditions? Ummmmm......why is this so bad? Who is wrecking the houses, etc? A vast majority seem to be driving brand new trucks, including Escalades.

Drugs & Alcohol? Everyone is exposed to this! Just go down to your local high school and have a look around! LOL

Self Esteem? Seems this is a problem everywhere. Many reports on the news reporting on teen suicide.

Segregation? I think this is what the native community is working towards.

Racism? From what I see locally, it is the other way around!

Employment opportunity? Again speaking from a local area, I would challenge you to find an employer in any major industry turning away qualified individuals of ANY race.

Tax base? Who pays taxes again?

Contaminated water? Not sure how to comment on this one. There are water treatment plants on the reserves that I am familiar with, possibly not others?

Gov't oppression? The gov't offers way more assistance to the native communities than anyone else.

Bad dietary practices? Really? how is this anyone else's fault but that if the individual?




I have no issues with the native community and have never had a problem working along side or even for them in the past. But you have to see that it is not hard for someone to look at what they are offered and given, then see how they choose to use it, and not feel offended. I see guys working side by side, getting the exact same wage, but one doesn't pay tax. He also didn't pay for any of his education, the required tools for the job, or the brand new truck he is driving to get to work. How is this fair again?

With any organization I think it's great that they can pull together and hold ralleys, etc. but when doing things like blocking roads, all that does is promote racism, as I would guess that most words uttered by impacted individuals of the road block are not words such as "Good For Them! Look at Them Pull Together!"

Good post.

[Jack&7]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

And how is it my fault these people choose drugs? I was exposed to drugs too, but I chose not to do them.

Education is free to natives. All they need to do is actually attend. I have to pay for mine.

Unemployment? I have to travel to work. Many others do too. Why is it any different for natives?

The homes the natives live in often are run down, not because of outside interference, but because of their own apathy towards their home. I fix my door when it is loose. I repaint my fence or walls when they start to peel. I replace windows and the screens when they get broken. I don't leave dilapidated cars up on blocks infront of my house. But these are things that people see when driving through most reserves. Why can't the natives take responsibility for their own home?

Employment opportunities and discrimination? Please. How many job applications have you filled out that specifically ask if you are native, with the sole purpose of putting your application to the top due to affirmative action? I get work because I work, and have a work ethic. Not because of government legislation.

Tax base? Tax free if you live and work on the reserve. I don't get that.

Contaminated water? How is that my fault? I don't dump chemicals on the reserve. But the natives living there do. How can the non natives be responsible for that?

Bad dietary practices? How is that my fault? Or the government's fault? There are grocery stores on reserves and they are stocked with proper food. However if those natives who suffer from bad dietary practices actually practiced proper meal preparation, then they would not suffer dietary problems. How about using that ground around their free homes to grow a garden?

There are many issues that natives do have, however many of them are of their own doing.

Canuck...

I have read all of your posts for the past few years every time a topic like this comes up as a thread. I respect your right to defend your heritage much the same as I would expect you to respect my right to defend my heritage with my opinions. I have also contemplated responding to many of your posts...but I realized that there was no point as it is apparent that you are steadfast in your position. And I am ok with that.

However...you raised some points here and RMW has addressed them. I could not have said it better myself. I will preface my comments by saying I grew up in Manitoba in the middle of three reserves, went to school with many natives, played hockey with them, and worked with them. I have seen the good and the bad. I currently live very close to a reserve. So I am not just some guy who is talking out of his arse.

There are natives who are proud of who they are and have worked hard to push past the stereotypes and have become contributing members of our collective society. I have total respect for those individuals.

I think most people are disgusted with the other members who do not contribute, instead choosing to reap the benefits of the assistance they do receive (and expect more), and then shift the blame for why they think their life is difficult.

Then you have band councils who have realized that they can use those same people as pawns in the game of bleeding the system dry to line their own wallets. They know how to play to the media and hope and pray the bleeding-heart libs in this country will line up to pressure the government to throw more money at them. These band council members disgust me the most...I compare them to leeches.

And make no mistake...there are those in government who have also learned how to play the game for their own benefit.

I guess what it comes down to for me is this: sense of entitlement, apathy, greed, and lack of accountability. The thing is that each and every one of these traits is a personal choice on behalf of the individual if they want to be that way. The system is just perpetuating the cycle to allow it to continue.

When you find these traits in someone or something, it is not hard to feel "riled up". And I am...

Until the system is overhauled, and those individuals that are sucking the system dry are outed, and the rest of the participants get off of the 'blame-train' and realize it is up to them to become accountable and contribute....the cycle will continue.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Jack&7

Canuck...

I have read all of your posts for the past few years every time a topic like this comes up as a thread. I respect your right to defend your heritage much the same as I would expect you to respect my right to defend my heritage with my opinions. I have also contemplated responding to many of your posts...but I realized that there was no point as it is apparent that you are steadfast in your position. And I am ok with that.

However...you raised some points here and RMW has addressed them. I could not have said it better myself. I will preface my comments by saying I grew up in Manitoba in the middle of three reserves, went to school with many natives, played hockey with them, and worked with them. I have seen the good and the bad. I currently live very close to a reserve. So I am not just some guy who is talking out of his arse.

There are natives who are proud of who they are and have worked hard to push past the stereotypes and have become contributing members of our collective society. I have total respect for those individuals.

I think most people are disgusted with the other members who do not contribute, instead choosing to reap the benefits of the assistance they do receive (and expect more), and then shift the blame for why they think their life is difficult.

Then you have band councils who have realized that they can use those same people as pawns in the game of bleeding the system dry to line their own wallets. They know how to play to the media and hope and pray the bleeding-heart libs in this country will line up to pressure the government to throw more money at them. These band council members disgust me the most...I compare them to leeches.

And make no mistake...there are those in government who have also learned how to play the game for their own benefit.

I guess what it comes down to for me is this: sense of entitlement, apathy, greed, and lack of accountability. The thing is that each and every one of these traits is a personal choice on behalf of the individual if they want to be that way. The system is just perpetuating the cycle to allow it to continue.

When you find these traits in someone or something, it is not hard to feel "riled up". And I am...

Until the system is overhauled, and those individuals that are sucking the system dry are outed, and the rest of the participants get off of the 'blame-train' and realize it is up to them to become accountable and contribute....the cycle will continue.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

This has got to be one of the best posts I have read on the subject.

[CantThinkOfAName]

Unemployment. Income Level. Employment opportunity: I would have to agree that any reserve that is distance from a population center will suffer from employment issues… but so would any community. But what about ones that are close to areas of employment? Doesn’t Attawapiskat have a diamond mine close by? And I always hear about mandatorily hiring natives in other provinces (like Saskatchewan), but the people I know who work there laugh about how long the natives last. Oh yeah and http://www.aboriginalcanada.gc.ca/ac.../eng/menu.html

Home ownership: As for free houses, correct me if I’m wrong but it’s the reserves that own the houses. Which would affect the treatment of houses… my renters downstairs don’t treat my belongings with respect either.

Education: http://www.aboriginalcanada.gc.ca/ac...g/ao20010.html

Drugs & Alcohol: I know a lot of wake and bake people… yet they all lead productive lives with normal jobs. I also know a lot of people who stopped recreational drugs and alcohol as they got older. I also know of a lot of alcoholics that have stopped at well.

Segregation. Racism. Gov't Oppression: The way I see it any section of society that separates themselves by demanding special treatment is hurting themselves. All this separation leads to a continuation of racism.

Tax base: Natives don’t have any assets or income at all? None what-so-ever?

Contaminated water: Once again reserves have to fix their own problems. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fniah-spnia/p...er-eau-eng.php

Bad dietary practices. If natives have special rights to hunt and fish when they want for subsistence, how is this a problem?

The way I see it, this is Canada. We have a lot of different cultures that come here to find a new life. And a lot of immigrants seem to do quite well... we can just talk to four out of six people I work with, my first and second generation Canadian friends, or my Lebanese grandmother.

[CantThinkOfAName]

I just wanted to tell everybody to go up and read Jack&7's post again. Great post.

[Albertadiver]

Three pages of decent discussion. Wow!

I figured it'd be derailed right away.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by Tech

Seeing someone climb out of a lexus in a buisness suit and throw on a headress makes me think I should show up to work in a viking helmet and claim my ancestral right to build boats all day and pillage england.

You are a free man. You can build a boat any time you like. That you don't, makes you a lousy viking and one without adequate transport.

You should visit England! The women there are much less prudish than here. Get a degree in Finance and go work in London; you can pillage all you like! Your ancestral rights might be upheld if only your Scandinavian genes weren't coming unraveled. Drink some Akavit and get a grip.

[Serengeti Charters]

Originally Posted by REPO

Income Levels? Of the natives that I personally know that work, they make way more than the rest of the guys as they get the same wage, and pay NO tax on their income.

Unemployment? This is a choice. There are tons of jobs out there, you just have to actually try ang get one of them.

Home ownership? Are they not offered free houses?

Education? All the reserves in my area have thir own schools, with several different native assistance/advancement organizations in town.

Living Conditions? Ummmmm......why is this so bad? Who is wrecking the houses, etc? A vast majority seem to be driving brand new trucks, including Escalades.

Drugs & Alcohol? Everyone is exposed to this! Just go down to your local high school and have a look around! LOL

Self Esteem? Seems this is a problem everywhere. Many reports on the news reporting on teen suicide.

Segregation? I think this is what the native community is working towards.

Racism? From what I see locally, it is the other way around!

Employment opportunity? Again speaking from a local area, I would challenge you to find an employer in any major industry turning away qualified individuals of ANY race.

Tax base? Who pays taxes again?

Contaminated water? Not sure how to comment on this one. There are water treatment plants on the reserves that I am familiar with, possibly not others?

Gov't oppression? The gov't offers way more assistance to the native communities than anyone else.

Bad dietary practices? Really? how is this anyone else's fault but that if the individual?




I have no issues with the native community and have never had a problem working along side or even for them in the past. But you have to see that it is not hard for someone to look at what they are offered and given, then see how they choose to use it, and not feel offended. I see guys working side by side, getting the exact same wage, but one doesn't pay tax. He also didn't pay for any of his education, the required tools for the job, or the brand new truck he is driving to get to work. How is this fair again?

With any organization I think it's great that they can pull together and hold ralleys, etc. but when doing things like blocking roads, all that does is promote racism, as I would guess that most words uttered by impacted individuals of the road block are not words such as "Good For Them! Look at Them Pull Together!"

Best post I think I've ever read on A/O. Having gone to a school with a 1/4 native population...everything you have said is true. Ill post later when not on iPhone about it. It'd take me an hr to type it on this thing lol

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by REPO

Income Levels? Of the natives that I personally know that work, they make way more than the rest of the guys as they get the same wage, and pay NO tax on their income.

Wrong! Any First Nations working off reserve pay income tax, the only time they don't pay income tax is when they are working on reserve for aboriginal owned business. The percentage of working First Nations in Canada who do not pay taxes is very small since most of them have to work off reserve, there isn't that much employment on reserve.

In general, Aboriginal people in Canada are required to pay taxes on the same basis as other people in Canada, except where the limited exemption under Section 87 of the Indian Act applies. Section 87 says that the “personal property of an Indian or a band situated on a reserve” is tax exempt. Inuit and Métis people are not eligible for this exemption and generally do not live on reserves

http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/110.../1100100016204

Home ownership? Are they not offered free houses?

Wrong again, they don't get free housing, they have to pay rent and utilities but they never "own" the house outright, it belongs to the band. For those that are unemployed there is social assistance on reserve, just as Canada's welfare system.

Education? All the reserves in my area have thir own schools, with several different native assistance/advancement organizations in town.

Last time I checked, there wasn't any type of post secondary education based on reserve. Reserves are given a certain of money for their members for post secondary education, the money is budgeted from Indian Affairs and then through regional council where they disperse that money between the reserves in their region based on population. By the time the money actually gets to the reserve itself, there are very few who will qualify for post secondary education. Sucker Creek last year only funded 15 students. That is on reserve, off reserve don't have a chance to qualify for this funding.


There are a lot of things wrong with the reserves in Canada but most people have a very wrong perception of all these "freebies" reserve members are getting and the corruption isn't only reserve based, Indian Affairs and Regional Council are the worst money grabbers.

[brownbomber]

Amazing post by jack&7. Very true words spoken. As for the assertions natives don't hack it at work, yes that's true with some but not all as well. But I've seen many white guys fold and pack it in on pay day or after a hard day too. If you wanna put labels on them you can say they are from certain regions in Canada, are former govt employees, used to drive on pavement or whatever. Some fit the bill and others don't. Look at the individual not the group that they have been lumped into. As for the "having to hire locals" argument that will pop up, wouldn't that they suck because anyone local with any get up and go is already employed somewhere else.

[rmatei]

I get pretty disgusted with the idle no more protesters bitching about "the Harper Government". The PC's were given a majority by the Canadian electorate, to govern for all Canadians. Lots of down to earth comments on this thread and all I can say is that every person in Canada that thinks he is entitled to anything over and above what all Canadians receive is wrong.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

And how is it my fault these people choose drugs? I was exposed to drugs too, but I chose not to do them.

Education is free to natives. All they need to do is actually attend. I have to pay for mine.

Unemployment? I have to travel to work. Many others do too. Why is it any different for natives?

The homes the natives live in often are run down, not because of outside interference, but because of their own apathy towards their home. I fix my door when it is loose. I repaint my fence or walls when they start to peel. I replace windows and the screens when they get broken. I don't leave dilapidated cars up on blocks infront of my house. But these are things that people see when driving through most reserves. Why can't the natives take responsibility for their own home?

Employment opportunities and discrimination? Please. How many job applications have you filled out that specifically ask if you are native, with the sole purpose of putting your application to the top due to affirmative action? I get work because I work, and have a work ethic. Not because of government legislation.

Tax base? Tax free if you live and work on the reserve. I don't get that.

Contaminated water? How is that my fault? I don't dump chemicals on the reserve. But the natives living there do. How can the non natives be responsible for that?

Bad dietary practices? How is that my fault? Or the government's fault? There are grocery stores on reserves and they are stocked with proper food. However if those natives who suffer from bad dietary practices actually practiced proper meal preparation, then they would not suffer dietary problems. How about using that ground around their free homes to grow a garden?

There are many issues that natives do have, however many of them are of their own doing.

If it's all their own doing....why do you keep asking if it's your fault?? ;-)

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Amazing post by jack&7. Very true words spoken. As for the assertions natives don't hack it at work, yes that's true with some but not all as well. But I've seen many white guys fold and pack it in on pay day or after a hard day too. If you wanna put labels on them you can say they are from certain regions in Canada, are former govt employees, used to drive on pavement or whatever. Some fit the bill and others don't. Look at the individual not the group that they have been lumped into. As for the "having to hire locals" argument that will pop up, wouldn't that they suck because anyone local with any get up and go is already employed somewhere else.

Good post!!!

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rmatei

I get pretty disgusted with the idle no more protesters bitching about "the Harper Government". The PC's were given a majority by the Canadian electorate, to govern for all Canadians. Lots of down to earth comments on this thread and all I can say is that every person in Canada that thinks he is entitled to anything over and above what all Canadians receive is wrong.

Good point, let's talk about 'entitlement'....I'd really like you, or any other poster that keeps using this term to explain what your alluding to?? I do understand 'contracts' which is basically what a treaty is...and it's through the bargains that were struck that some native bands gain some benefits over and above what most Canadians enjoy, if the other party isn't living up to the agreement and they complain....is that feeling entitled? Is this what your talking about?

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Jack&7

Canuck...

I have read all of your posts for the past few years every time a topic like this comes up as a thread. I respect your right to defend your heritage much the same as I would expect you to respect my right to defend my heritage with my opinions. I have also contemplated responding to many of your posts...but I realized that there was no point as it is apparent that you are steadfast in your position. And I am ok with that.

However...you raised some points here and RMW has addressed them. I could not have said it better myself. I will preface my comments by saying I grew up in Manitoba in the middle of three reserves, went to school with many natives, played hockey with them, and worked with them. I have seen the good and the bad. I currently live very close to a reserve. So I am not just some guy who is talking out of his arse.

There are natives who are proud of who they are and have worked hard to push past the stereotypes and have become contributing members of our collective society. I have total respect for those individuals.

I think most people are disgusted with the other members who do not contribute, instead choosing to reap the benefits of the assistance they do receive (and expect more), and then shift the blame for why they think their life is difficult.

Then you have band councils who have realized that they can use those same people as pawns in the game of bleeding the system dry to line their own wallets. They know how to play to the media and hope and pray the bleeding-heart libs in this country will line up to pressure the government to throw more money at them. These band council members disgust me the most...I compare them to leeches.

And make no mistake...there are those in government who have also learned how to play the game for their own benefit.

I guess what it comes down to for me is this: sense of entitlement, apathy, greed, and lack of accountability. The thing is that each and every one of these traits is a personal choice on behalf of the individual if they want to be that way. The system is just perpetuating the cycle to allow it to continue.

When you find these traits in someone or something, it is not hard to feel "riled up". And I am...

Until the system is overhauled, and those individuals that are sucking the system dry are outed, and the rest of the participants get off of the 'blame-train' and realize it is up to them to become accountable and contribute....the cycle will continue.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Jack, I appreciate your thoughtful posting. :-). Please understand that I am not completely steadfast in some of the positions I take in these threads, in fact I can agree with the majority of the points you've made. :-)

I usually get involved in these threads, and adopt the 'other side of the fence' position because it irks me that there is so much misinformation and stereotyping happening. :-). Practically every complaint being made about natives that are abusing the system can be made about people from different cultures also. The myopic focus on natives is disturbing IMHO.

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

If it's all their own doing....why do you keep asking if it's your fault?? ;-)

rwm isn't asking if it's his fault.
He's asking you how you think it is "our-his" fault.

There are some good points being raised by ppl who have been around the scene, and then there is a poster who keeps contradicting himself.
"good post" then "uh, what you talking bout".

You have raised some points and concerns and members have shown where you might be incorrect or can't back up a statement.
PLEASE, re-read your posts, quotes, sit back and think if you have contradicted yourself.
I don't like doing this in a public forum, but there is so much bickering and lack of facts posted. This creates animosity. When one party won't answer questions point blank and gets on another tangent before wrapping up the first, nothing gets accomplished.
Focus. What do you want to say? Can you back it up? If not, let others speak who can back up their comments. Read and think before responding and sending. If you want to adopt the other side of the fence for sake of discussions, be ready to go with the facts.
Feel like I'm talking to my ex wife.

Carry on people.

Edit:
wrote while you were posting.
As you say, there are contracts/treaties. Contracts get re-negotiated all the time to reflect changes in society, economics etc.What is the good of the whole?
No, other minorities are not the same. We have had treaties in Canada for a long time with natives, not so with new immigrants. Can you draw some parrallels btwn natives /contracts and say new immigrants down the street from me who came from Pakistan?
Or the lebanese who sell halal meats at their deli?
Please explain.
I don't normally get involved in these discussions, but this one is bothering me.
I need facts and figures. Discussions without them really get under my skin. It irks me!
You say thee is a myopic focus? Why is that?
Ever seen a white woman teaching on a native reserve? I'll tell you about myopic focus.Tell me how you think that experiment goes?
I'll wait.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Dacotensis

rwm isn't asking if it's his fault.
He's asking you how you think it is "our-his" fault.

There are some good points being raised by ppl who have been around the scene, and then there is a poster who keeps contradicting himself.
"good post" then "uh, what you talking bout".

You have raised some points and concerns and members have shown where you might be incorrect or can't back up a statement.
PLEASE, re-read your posts, quotes, sit back and think if you have contradicted yourself.
I don't like doing this in a public forum, but there is so much bickering and lack of facts posted. This creates animosity. When one party won't answer questions point blank and gets on another tangent before wrapping up the first, nothing gets accomplished.
Focus. What do you want to say? Can you back it up? If not, let others speak who can back up their comments. Read and think before responding and sending. If you want to adopt the other side of the fence for sake of discussions, be ready to go with the facts.
Feel like I'm talking to my ex wife.

Carry on people.

Edit:
wrote while you were posting.
As you say, there are contracts/treaties. Contracts get re-negotiated all the time to reflect changes in society, economics etc.What is the good of the whole?
No, other minorities are not the same. We have had treaties in Canada for a long time with natives, not so with new immigrants. Can you draw some parrallels btwn natives /contracts and say new immigrants down the street from me who came from Pakistan?
Or the lebanese who sell halal meats at their deli?
Please explain.
I don't normally get involved in these discussions, but this one is bothering me.
I need facts and figures. Discussions without them really get under my skin. It irks me!
You say thee is a myopic focus? Why is that?
Ever seen a white woman teaching on a native reserve? I'll tell you about myopic focus.Tell me how you think that experiment goes?
I'll wait.

I'm sorry, he did ask at least twice why it was his fault...I've never accused anyone personally for being responsible for the way things are.

If your looking for responses on one topic why pose multiPle questions in one post? It's hard responding on an iPhone. ;-)

Myopic-isn't pointed at minorities. It's saying there are many non natives living off the system too...so why focus all your attention on the natives that do it?

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

If your looking for responses on one topic why pose multiPle questions in one post? It's hard responding on an iPhone. ;-)

Myopic-isn't pointed at minorities. It's saying there are many non natives living off the system too...so why focus all your attention on the natives that do it?

I pose multiple questions in one post because they should be answered all at once.
Does it make sense to post 10 times on one thread to ask one question at a time?
Nevermind.
You gave a response that I have come to expect from you in your time on the forum.
It really would be refreshing if you would answer point blank, rather than running for cover after stirring the bee's nest. Stand up and say your piece-but back it up. Don't just fire shots and disapear.
If you could do this, it would add alot to the value this forum is.
If you can't or won't, well it detracts from the value of AO.In this case it would be better to remain silent

[Serengeti Charters]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

If it's all their own doing....why do you keep asking if it's your fault?? ;-)

If that's the best retort you have for his post/points then I think that says a lot about how good of a post it was.