Antlerless Moose Draws?????

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

Ive never noticed...does it list in the draw summary the numbers of 999's?....or are they just dis regarded in the number of applicants for a certain draw???

It lists the 999 separately below for each species....the 999 folks in no fashion affect the draw wait whatsoever.

Only when a person opts into the draw is it affected....but they earned that spot by waiting a longer time frame.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It lists the 999 separately below for each species....the 999 folks in no fashion affect the draw wait whatsoever.

Only when a person opts into the draw is it affected....but they earned that spot by waiting a longer time frame.

LC

Like I said, I have never noticed it,

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

Like I said, I have never noticed it,

Antlerless elk...last year at the very bottom of the category.

999 entry statistic data....11K+ people opted out of the draw, imagine if they all entered it!!!!

Those saying remove 999 option are not thinking it all the way through.

It's math and statistics....trust me it's a good thing!



LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Hooter

Essentially people just apply for everything under the sun because it's cheap to enter a draw, and they just keep 999ing it and eventually when they cash in their accumulated points it makes the draw priority increase.

Make sense?

This is not correct...

Available tags vs. applicants ENTERING draws increases the priority needed.

999 folks do not actually enter anything, they just up priority by 1 each year. Which helps those opting in to try for a tag.

LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by husky7mm

I do not understand what you mean?

Smoking Yotes 3rd suggestion was "Make all Albertans buy a hunting license with bag limits". This is what didn't make sense to me.
I think now that he might have been referring to Natives that can hunt without a license and have no limit to how many animals they harvest, but don't "quote" me on that.

[crblair]

I agree to a point with the 999 system. It does help others chances of drawing a tag. BUT it wrecks other draw opportunities like Sheep draws for example. Anyone coming of age to hunt are basically screwed for life from ever hunting a 437 sheep just bcz they weren't born 20yrs ago. Certain draws like goat, sheep, bison, and turkey should all be lottery draws.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I see no difference with this and straight out poaching.
See what happens when buddy gets stopped with his cow elk... and shows his hunting license and produces an Ontario drivers license. He might have a hard time explaining himself out of that one.
I'm assuming that the FWO will check on proof of residency tho..

100% disagree with you on this being "poaching". A non resident has to build up priority points for draws like the rest of us. When a non resident applies for a draw with a resident/hunter host the person with the lower # of priority is what is used for both of them. If your stopped on the way back to BC with a cow elk that you took legally in the back of your truck, and have the tag to prove it, you don't have to explain anything other then what a great trip you had.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by crblair

I agree to a point with the 999 system. It does help others chances of drawing a tag. BUT it wrecks other draw opportunities like Sheep draws for example. Anyone coming of age to hunt are basically screwed for life from ever hunting a 437 sheep just bcz they weren't born 20yrs ago. Certain draws like goat, sheep, bison, and turkey should all be lottery draws.

That has ZERO to do with 999, sheep is supply and demand....few tags many hunters....999 does not "wreck" opportunity...if it does explain how please.

Goat, bison and some sheep ARE lottery....????

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by crblair

I agree to a point with the 999 system. It does help others chances of drawing a tag. BUT it wrecks other draw opportunities like Sheep draws for example. Anyone coming of age to hunt are basically screwed for life from ever hunting a 437 sheep just bcz they weren't born 20yrs ago. Certain draws like goat, sheep, bison, and turkey should all be lottery draws.

If the 999 option did not exist, it would make no difference as far as a young hunter not being able to draw a 437 sheep tag is concerned. Before the 999 option existed people that had high priorities just applied with someone with no priority to increase their priority, with no chance of them getting drawn.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Yes, I know....

Should be $40 a person. Or pay for the tag up front if you don't get it money is refunded.

One problem that I see with paying in advance for the tag when doing the draw is that you never know what you are going to be drawn for. If you get drawn for elk in Suffield and at the same time get a bison draw in Zama most people wouldn't have the time and money to do both. Lets face it, a lot of the time it's a crapshoot as to what draws you entered might be approved.
I do think that in this computer age they can tell who has bought their tags or not. Perhaps a time limit could be put in place so that tags that were drawn but not purchased could go into undersubscribed.
Or a really good way to reduce draw #s would be to pay up front, but why stop at 40.00? Why not set it at 100.00, or 250.00? That should really make it easier to get the draws you want.

Last para. really tounge in cheek. It just bothers me a little when someones solution to a problem is to make it more expensive.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

One problem that I see with paying in advance for the tag when doing the draw is that you never know what you are going to be drawn for. If you get drawn for elk in Suffield and at the same time get a bison draw in Zama most people wouldn't have the time and money to do both. Lets face it, a lot of the time it's a crapshoot as to what draws you entered might be approved.
I do think that in this computer age they can tell who has bought their tags or not. Perhaps a time limit could be put in place so that tags that were drawn but not purchased could go into undersubscribed.

Don't enter both if you don't have time/money....it's a draw not a guarantee.

Moving unpurchased priority draw tags to undersubscribed is hardly fair for guys who would use and have to use a priority to pull them....

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by waterninja

One problem that I see with paying in advance for the tag when doing the draw is that you never know what you are going to be drawn for. If you get drawn for elk in Suffield and at the same time get a bison draw in Zama most people wouldn't have the time and money to do both. Lets face it, a lot of the time it's a crapshoot as to what draws you entered might be approved.
I do think that in this computer age they can tell who has bought their tags or not. Perhaps a time limit could be put in place so that tags that were drawn but not purchased could go into undersubscribed.

Lottery tags are a crap shoot, but in many cases where the priority system applies, you have a pretty good idea of the odds of being drawn. If you can't afford to go on two hunts, and you have high odds of getting drawn for one tag, don't apply for any others.

As far as letting people return tags that they drew goes, the problem with allowing tags to be returned without a loss of priority, is that people will be even more inclined to apply if they know that they can simply return a tag without losing their priority. This will result in even more applications, which will make the present situation even worse. Once a person draws a tag, his priority should be lost, whether he chooses to purchase the tag or not.

Moving unpurchased priority draw tags to undersubscribed is hardly fair for guys who would use and have to use a priority to pull them....

If you want to recycle drawn tags, to prevent them from being wasted, give everyone seven days to purchase their tags, and then have a second drawing for all unpurchased tags, using the priority system. Of course everyone that draws the tag would lose their priority, whether they purchase the tag or not.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Don't enter both if you don't have time/money....it's a draw not a guarantee.

Moving unpurchased priority draw tags to undersubscribed is hardly fair for guys who would use and have to use a priority to pull them....

LC

My point exactly. Neither draw is a gaurantee, but you hope to get at least one. At least this way an unused draw could be used.
In the real world of how it's done now, what would you guesstimate is the % of draws that aren't purchased. I would think at least 10%.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Lottery tags are a crap shoot, but in many cases where the priority system applies, you have a pretty good idea of the odds of being drawn. If you can't afford to go on two hunts, and you have high odds of getting drawn for one tag, don't apply for any others.

As far as letting people return tags that they drew goes, the problem with allowing tags to be returned without a loss of priority, is that people will be even more inclined to apply if they know that they can simply return a tag without losing their priority. This will result in even more applications, which will make the present situation even worse. Once a person draws a tag, his priority should be lost, whether he chooses to purchase the tag or not.

I never suggested they could return their draw for a refund of points. Whether they buy the tag or not their priority returns to zero, which is just as it is now.

Edit.. oops didn't see your last sentence about buying tags by a certain time. giving them to the next person in line makes sense also, but at least 2 weeks
seems more reasonable.
Re Edit... No wonder I didn't see last line, you stuck it in there while I was typing. lol

[Smokinyotes]

Alberta has one of the best draw systems period. 999 is a good thing whether some of you realize it or not. Leave our draw system the way it is and implement the suggestions I posted in post#45 and Albertans will be better off in a few years. Most years in many of the zones within an hour of Edmonton you can draw a antler less moose tag with a priority 2 or 3. Is it because moose populations are that high because we all know it isn't good management on the governments behalf. The reason why low priority antler less tags are given out is to keep the numbers low to reduce insurance claims and traffic accidents. It has nothing to do with good game management.

Everyone purchases there draws online with a credit card. When you are awarded a draw your credit card should automatically be billed the price of the license. This would eliminate people being successful in the draws and not purchasing that license.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by waterninja

One problem that I see with paying in advance for the tag when doing the draw is that you never know what you are going to be drawn for. If you get drawn for elk in Suffield and at the same time get a bison draw in Zama most people wouldn't have the time and money to do both. Lets face it, a lot of the time it's a crapshoot as to what draws you entered might be approved.
I do think that in this computer age they can tell who has bought their tags or not. Perhaps a time limit could be put in place so that tags that were drawn but not purchased could go into undersubscribed.
Or a really good way to reduce draw #s would be to pay up front, but why stop at 40.00? Why not set it at 100.00, or 250.00? That should really make it easier to get the draws you want.

Last para. really tounge in cheek. It just bothers me a little when someones solution to a problem is to make it more expensive.

There is obviously lots you don't understand. If you don't have the money or time to hunt both animals, don't enter for both, get it yet? Enter for the one you want and 999 the other and use it next season.

Right now at under $4.00 per draw, who really cares, enter them all like most folks do. Why not? If people were forced to pay up front they would think a hell of a lot more than they do now before entering a certain draw.

Sure, I would love to see draw tags set at $100, pay up front. If you don't get the draw you entered your money is refunded. It happens other places and it works well.

I personally believe that our draw system and wait times are all @*&*ed up because there is no thought put in to entering draws because it costs next to nothing. I know many people that put in for draw animals they never intend to hunt, why not, its dirt cheap, three draws entered for the cost of a pack of smokes....

[IR_mike]

A bit of a derail but I think in regards to moose there should be no antlerless season but a calf and antlered draw.

Under that regimen all will be good in regard to opportunity and population numbers.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Lottery tags are a crap shoot, but in many cases where the priority system applies, you have a pretty good idea of the odds of being drawn. If you can't afford to go on two hunts, and you have high odds of getting drawn for one tag, don't apply for any others.

As far as letting people return tags that they drew goes, the problem with allowing tags to be returned without a loss of priority, is that people will be even more inclined to apply if they know that they can simply return a tag without losing their priority. This will result in even more applications, which will make the present situation even worse. Once a person draws a tag, his priority should be lost, whether he chooses to purchase the tag or not.



If you want to recycle drawn tags, to prevent them from being wasted, give everyone seven days to purchase their tags, and then have a second drawing for all unpurchased tags, using the priority system. Of course everyone that draws the tag would lose their priority, whether they purchase the tag or not.

The tag goes into the undersubscribed pool up for grabs by anyone (the early bird gets the worm) and if taken the person who originally drew the tag and relinquished it loses one priority point from when they drew the tag.

If not taken they lose all priority.

I have checked it out with a senior SRD member...very easy to implement via computer programming.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

There is obviously lots you don't understand. If you don't have the money or time to hunt both animals, don't enter for both, get it yet? Enter for the one you want and 999 the other and use it next season.

Right now at under $4.00 per draw, who really cares, enter them all like most folks do. Why not? If people were forced to pay up front they would think a hell of a lot more than they do now before entering a certain draw.

Sure, I would love to see draw tags set at $100, pay up front. If you don't get the draw you entered your money is refunded. It happens other places and it works well.

I personally believe that our draw system and wait times are all @*&*ed up because there is no thought put in to entering draws because it costs next to nothing. I know many people that put in for draw animals they never intend to hunt, why not, its dirt cheap, three draws entered for the cost of a pack of smokes....

Believe it or not I do understand, and I think our draw system is pretty fair, and that 999 should stay in place. It's just that as more and more people want to hunt it just makes the wait longer.
I don't think you get it that having all Albertans on even footing as to having to buy licenses is not going to happen in our lifetime if ever. I don't think that even the AB govt. has much say about this as Native hunting rights are decided at the federal level (if thats what you mean't by all Albertans should have to buy licenses).
As for completely banning all non residents from coming to AB to hunt, personally I don't agree, but they could probably tighten that up, esp. in regards to outfitter tags.

Anywho, off to Calgary. See how this discussion has progressed this evening.

[elkhunter11]

The tag goes into the undersubscribed pool up for grabs by anyone

If the draw code uses the priority system, then the priority system should be used to re-issue that tag if the person that draws it doesn't purchase it. If a person waits ten years and isn't drawn , that person should get the opportunity before someone with less or no priority. Undersubscribed tags are tags that were not issued, because not enough people wanted them, they aren't tags that people waiting for years did not get, because there weren't enough to go around.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the draw code uses the priority system, then the priority system should be used to re-issue that tag if the person that draws it doesn't purchase it. If a person waits ten years and isn't drawn , that person should get the opportunity before someone with less or no priority. Undersubscribed tags are tags that were not issued, because not enough people wanted them, they aren't tags that people waiting for years did not get, because there weren't enough to go around.

That person whether it be you or me will be aware of that option and if the tag becomes available will have the same chance to log on and scoop the tag.

No unfairness whatsoever.

By putting the relinquished tag in as undersubscribed it keeps it simple and fair.

[st99]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

My partner missed on both moose and cow elk with a priority 5. Both those draws were 100% for priority 5 last year ????

If this is any indication of future trends then its going to be tough going.

Sadly, yes it is an indication of the what the future has for us. An ever increasing human population mixed with a decreasing wildlife habitat = bad for hunting. Add to that more hunters..... I moved in this town for a specific unit, when I lived in southern Alberta, that unit was 100% with P0 on moose, when I moved here 5 yrs ago it took P2 and now it takes P4 +.

I would exchange all my other tags for a moose

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

That person whether it be you or me will be aware of that option and if the tag becomes available will have the same chance to log on and scoop the tag.

No unfairness whatsoever.

It is unfair....what about those who put in for the draw with a high priority and were not picked...then a guy with no priority grabs the tag undersubscribed...

A tag that was awarded through the draw using priority should NOT be returned to a general "undersubscribed" pool, because that tag was awarded initially under a draw requiring priority.

I think honestly some people just don't want to wait their turn....Sorry that's what we all have to do.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by st99

Sadly, yes it is an indication of the what the future has for us. An ever increasing human population mixed with a decreasing wildlife habitat = bad for hunting. Add to that more hunters..... I moved in this town for a specific unit, when I lived in southern Alberta, that unit was 100% with P0 on moose, when I moved here 5 yrs ago it took P2 and now it takes P4 +.

I would exchange all my other tags for a moose

Look at the size of the priority pools below your current priority....longer wait times are inevitable and should not be a surprise to anyone.

It is simple math...applicants vs. available opportunity, the disparity is growing.

No surprises, some folks just don't understand how it works!

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It is unfair....what about those who put in for the draw with a high priority and were not picked...then a guy with no priority grabs the tag undersubscribed...

A tag that was awarded through the draw using priority should NOT be returned to a general "undersubscribed" pool, because that tag was awarded initially under a draw requiring priority.

I think honestly some people just don't want to wait their turn....Sorry that's what we all have to do.

LC

Exactly, some people could care less about anyone but themselves, it's just "me, me,me, ". If they could, they would take every tag that interested them every year, and to hell with everyone else.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It is unfair....what about those who put in for the draw with a high priority and were not picked...then a guy with no priority grabs the tag undersubscribed...

A tag that was awarded through the draw using priority should NOT be returned to a general "undersubscribed" pool, because that tag was awarded initially under a draw requiring priority.

I think honestly some people just don't want to wait their turn....Sorry that's what we all have to do.

LC

You could not be further from the mark.

Its about things like a illness or a work commitment popping up and having management objectives met.

But I see what you are trying to say.

If a tag is relinquished should the next person in line priority wise who was unsuccessful be forced to take it?

You don't want it or can't take it after being unsuccessful in the draw let someone else with the opportunity take it when it goes undersubscribed.

It adds opportunity to all and takes away from no one.

The person who relinquishes the tag is penalised a priority point from where they were at when drawn.

[SBE2]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It is unfair....what about those who put in for the draw with a high priority and were not picked...then a guy with no priority grabs the tag undersubscribed...

A tag that was awarded through the draw using priority should NOT be returned to a general "undersubscribed" pool, because that tag was awarded initially under a draw requiring priority.

I think honestly some people just don't want to wait their turn....Sorry that's what we all have to do.

LC

^^^ This, exactly! There are a lot of great suggestions here on this thread to help alleviate some of the wait times and other things. Surprised cutting outfitter tags hasn't been hammered on. Unfortunately, the implementation of positive changes will likely take a very long time, and sensible ones that seem like to brainers, even longer. We need far stronger stewardship for the resource and much better leadership and concern pertaining to the rights of the resident hunter. Faster decisions and changes towards stricter measures to ensure better opportunities for the licence purchasing resident hunter need to happen ASAP, or the end result will be very bad for all of us, and very terrible for the next generation.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

You could not be further from the mark.

Its about things like a illness or a work commitment popping up and having management objectives met.

But I see what you are trying to say.

If a tag is relinquished should the next person in line priority wise who was unsuccessful be forced to take it?

You don't want it or can't take it after being unsuccessful in the draw let someone else with the opportunity take it when it goes undersubscribed.

It adds opportunity to all and takes away from no one.

The person who relinquishes the tag is penalised a priority point from where they were at when drawn.

I actually had to let a tag go to waste because of a sudden health issue. I actually lost two years of hunting, but I didn't complain because of the tag that I drew but could not use. I applied for the tag, I bought the license, and I couldn't go, too bad for me, life doesn't always go as planned.

One issue that we have is people applying for tags that they don't really want, or that they have no idea of what is involved with the hunt but because it costs less than $4 to apply, they apply anyways. We need a way o dissuade these people from drawing, and letting them give up the tag after they draw it, while only giving up one priority point doesn't do that.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I actually had to let a tag go to waste because of a sudden health issue. I actually lost two years of hunting, but I didn't complain because of the tag that I drew but could not use. I applied for the tag, I bought the license, and I couldn't go, too bad for me, life doesn't always go as planned.

One issue that we have is people applying for tags that they don't really want, or that they have no idea of what is involved with the hunt but because it costs less than $4 to apply, they apply anyways. We need a way o dissuade these people from drawing, and letting them give up the tag after they draw it, while only giving up one priority point doesn't do that.

That is why I wish that option was available to you as well as it helping to meet management objectives.

I agree with you that we have the best draw system going and just trying to make it better.

Raise the price of draws payable up front and have the person relinquishing the tag still have to pay for it.

Have it mandated/earmarked that the money goes to enforcement.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

You could not be further from the mark.

Its about things like a illness or a work commitment popping up and having management objectives met.

But I see what you are trying to say.

If a tag is relinquished should the next person in line priority wise who was unsuccessful be forced to take it?

You don't want it or can't take it after being unsuccessful in the draw let someone else with the opportunity take it when it goes undersubscribed.

It adds opportunity to all and takes away from no one.

The person who relinquishes the tag is penalised a priority point from where they were at when drawn.

HOW SO?

I am right on the mark

You want to take a tag that someone ooops'd on or can't use that took a PRIORITY to obtain, remove a SINGLE PRIORITY POINT from them (so they can potentially do the same thing next year??).....and give it to someone with NO PRIORITY.....sorry man but I think that is crazy and rediculous.

Why would you take a PRIORITY required tag and stuff it into a free for all general pool?? Thats insane....sorry but it is....

People need to actually think about what they are doing and be realistic in their choices....if they make a bad choice own up to it.

How about people pay up immediately on drawing? My buddy just got drawn for Arizona Coues deer....how did he know? His VISA was instantly charged $700 USD for the tag upon a successful draw, thats how it should be here.

Everyone wants a mulligan in life now when they make a poor decision, how about owning up to it and making the most of it instead of taking an available out...

Yes life gets in the way...people get sick, people die, crap happens, my Mom passed away with a P6 on moose, maybe she should have left those points to my Son in her will?

Sorry but I just cant agree with your thoughts on this....likely how you can't agree with mine

Its about things like a illness or a work commitment popping up and having management objectives met

Such is life, a tag is not a guarantee....it is an opportunity. Management objectives will not fail if some tags go unfilled. That has always happened, infact in some areas it is good for not all tags to be filled....not all hunters are successful. You are drawing for an opportunity not a box full of little brwon packages.

Soon people are going to complain they want a tag the next year because they only got out one day (called into work) and were unsuccessful.

LC