whats the flattest shooting rifle out of the box?

[Cowtown guy]

Here's my $.02. The OP in post #3 said he wants to learn about guns. I am betting that with all of the info that has been posted, most of which is great by the way, he got more than he bargained for. Most likely he is more than confused as well.
This is one of those things that will be debated forever. There are alot of right answers depending on the parameters that are implied by the individual. Take Chuck's post as opposed to Elk Hunters. Both have great info, neither are technically wrong depending on the application you apply.
I know when I started reading more about BC and such it was a real eye opener.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Bushmaster

How does my .204 stack up ?? Seems to me its pretty flat.....

Using the data for a factory loaded 32 gr. Vmax at 4225 fps the drop at 500 yards from line of bore is -43 and at 1000 yards is -391.

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Horse puckocky. I sight my rifle in for zero at 300 yds. My bullet does not start to drop as soon as it comes out of the barrel due to gravity.....it actually rises

tm

Hey, mine too. I was going to mention my 7mm STW but it's not flat at all....it hasn't quit rising above the barrel until well past the 600 yard mark...When zeroed at 100 yards, it's 24" high at 600.......well with my special handloads and coated high BC bullets that is.... And there's no recoil at all!

Learning to judge the hold under takes some practice but I put a ballistic reticle scope on upside down and that seemed to help.........

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The Lazzeroni cartridges are very flat shooting,but you really need to look at why they achieve so much velocity.They do use large capacity cases,but they do also use longer 27" barrels,a slower rate of twist,and coated bullets,all of which increase the velocity potential.If I compare the Lazzeroni data to my own results with my 7mmRUM,the Lazzeroni produces about 200fps more with similar bullet weights.Now if I use a coated bullet,in my 7mmRUM,I can gain up to 75fps.If I went to a 27" barrel,that would add up to 50fps.If I went with a slower 12" rate of twist,another 25fps would be possible.If you add up those differences,the Lazzeroni advantage over the 7mmRUM shrinks to about 50fps which certainly isn't much.
However when looking at the Lazzeroni rifles,you must realize that the slower rate of twist is a disadvantage in that it won't stabilize the longer bullets that work best at longer distances.Take a look at the recommended rates of twist for bullets like the heavier Berger VLDs,and you will see that 1 in 12" is too slow.If you try and use the longer bullet in the slow twist rate barrel,it won't stabilize properly,accuracy will suffer,and if the bullet won't stabilize,and continues to yaw,the effective B.C. will drop off significantly,defeating the purpose of using such abullet in the first place.
So in summary,the Lazzeronis are flat shooting rifles,but they aren't necessarily the flattest shooting at longer distances,because the slow twist rate limits bullet selection.

And your Custom designed 7mm RUM would still come out of a box wouldn't it!! You want so badly for that Ultra Mag to be the flattest.

Interesting theory on the stabilization. Since stabilization is also affected by velocity it would be an interesting exercise to see if the 1 in 12 twist is actually effective. Obviously Lazzaroni believes it is enough to stabilize the 160 grain offerings.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Hey, mine too. I was going to mention my 7mm STW but it's not flat at all....it hasn't quit rising above the barrel until well past the 600 yard mark...When zeroed at 100 yards, it's 24" high at 600.......well with my special handloads and coated high BC bullets that is.... And there's no recoil at all!

Learning to judge the hold under takes some practice but I put a ballistic reticle scope on upside down and that seemed to help.........

Yup....that STW kicks like a 22 I bet

Gotta get me some of them special handloads off ya Could you shave them down a little so they'll fit in my 257.....or maybe build them up a bit to fill up the hole in my 300?????

Gotta run.....got a few scopes to flip over

tm

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by chuck

To 350 velocity rules the world and that to me means flat or less deviation from line of site. When BC's take over nothing is flat. Some may have less drop than others but they aren't flat. Light bullets at hyper velocity makes a rifle flat shooting not ballistic coefficient.

I suspect that velocity probably rules even further than 350 yards.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Learning to judge the hold under takes some practice but I put a ballistic reticle scope on upside down and that seemed to help.........

I think you will need to do a how to article on that now that you have piqued everyone's interest.

[elkhunter11]

The data on Remingtons site shows a 160 gr. bullet at 2960 and 2950 from the 7mm RUM and you are claiming 3350 - a full 400 fps faster than factory - then have the audacity to try and bust me on a theoretical handload for the Lazzy? Come on.

My standard 7mmremmag can easily reach 2900fps with a 160 gr bullet.My 7mmstws can produce just under 3300fps with the 160gr bullet,and the 7mmRUM adds another 75fps or so for 3350fps.I am quoting actual chronographed velocities,not "Theoretical " handloads,there is a difference.

And your Custom designed 7mm RUM would still come out of a box wouldn't it!! You want so badly for that Ultra Mag to be the flattest

I never tried to convince anyone that the 7mmRM is the flattest shooting cartridge,I just used it as a comparisin to show the small difference between it and the 284 Lazzeroni.

Interesting theory on the stabilization. Since stabilization is also affected by velocity it would be an interesting exercise to see if the 1 in 12 twist is actually effective. Obviously Lazzaroni believes it is enough to stabilize the 160 grain offerings.

Look at the particular bullet that lazzeroni uses for it's 160gr offering,it isn't a long for caliber bullet,like the high B.C. bullets such as the VLDs.Weight is not all that determines the required twist rate,the length of the bullet is a factor.It is a fact that companies such as Berger recommend a tighter twist than 1 in 12" for the 168gr VLD.If you don't believe me,ask Berger.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I think you will need to do a how to article on that now that you have piqued everyone's interest.

The only issue that I've found is that you need very high rings so you can still adjust the elevation turret. I had a guy once try to tell me that the ring height changed a rifle's POI but I haven't seen it with the 167.967543 grain bullets that I shoot.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I never tried to convince anyone that the 7mmRM is the flattest shooting cartridge,I just used it as a comparisin to show the small difference between it and the 284 Lazzeroni.

No, you are comparing custom cooked handloads for the 7mmRM producing a full 400 fps above the factory loadings to the factory offerings for the Lazzaroni and when that fell short you came up with theoretical additions to your load and rifle to try and bring velocities even closer.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The only issue that I've found is that you need very high rings so you can still adjust the elevation turret. I had a guy once try to tell me that the ring height changed a rifle's POI but I haven't seen it with the 167.967543 grain bullets that I shoot.

You can't see it because your scope is upside down. Do we really need to get into scope height and it's effect on Point Blank Range?

[240gord]

I see no you uses a 264 Winchester Mag.Out of the Box fast and flat.

[elkhunter11]

The data on Remingtons site shows a 160 gr. bullet at 2960 and 2950 from the 7mm RUM

Which loads are these?Remington does have three levels of loads,both Level 1 and Level 2 are reduced loads,while level 3 loads are the full power loads.

[Vindalbakken]

There are lots of contenders out there. The 30-378 Wby being another. Factory data shows it to be pretty well a match to the Lazzaroni Warbird (.308).

Ballistics calc shows the 100 gr. pill from your 264 to be -47 and -266.
The 180 gr. Wby load goes -46 and -240.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Which loads are these?Remington does have three levels of loads,both Level 1 and Level 2 are reduced loads,while level 3 loads are the full power loads.

The only two 160 gr. loads that Remington shows on their website. One has no power designation and is 2960, the other is Power Level 2 at 2950 so I'm not sure what is up with that.
I searched all available offerings and they do have 3 offerings in Power Level 3 - a 140 @ 3425, a 150 @ 3325, and a 175 @ 3025 so I suppose we could extrapolate a 160 @ 3200 which puts your handloads 150 fps above factory ammo.
Do you think it would be fair to give the Lazzaroni a 150 fps boost when comparing to your handloads to compensate for the custom loading potential? Wow - that would be a 160 gr. pill @ 3700 fps. Calculates to a 39" drop at 500 and a 198" drop at 1000 yards compared to the -48 and -245 numbers coming from your Ultra Mag load. I suppose some people might consider a difference of nearly 20% close.

[elkhunter11]

The only two 160 gr. loads that Remington shows on their website. One has no power designation and is 2960, the other is Power Level 2 at 2950 so I'm not sure what is up with that.
I searched all available offerings and they do have 3 offerings in Power Level 3 - a 140 @ 3425, a 150 @ 3325, and a 175 @ 3025 so I suppose we could extrapolate a 160 @ 3200 which puts your handloads 150 fps above factory ammo.

So you were comparing reduced 7mmRUM loads to full power Lazzeroni loads,I am not at all surprised.

Do you think it would be fair to give the Lazzaroni a 150 fps boost when comparing to your handloads to compensate for the custom loading potential?

What would be fair is to use the reloading data on the Lazzeroni site.What do they list for their hottest handlod for a 160gr bullet?Is it closer to 3550fps,or 3700fps?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So you were comparing reduced 7mmRUM loads to full power Lazzeroni loads,I am not at all surprised.

I was comparing the only available commercial 160 gr. loads I could find. It seems Winchester, Hornady and Federal have something against loading for the 7mm Ultra Mag.

Would you like to compare 3200 fps to 3550 fps? I am sure a 350 fps disadvantage won't make much of a difference.

Don't you think you have worn this a little thin?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

What would be fair is to use the reloading data on the Lazzeroni site.What do they list for their hottest handlod for a 160gr bullet?Is it closer to 3550fps,or 3700fps?

I don't know. What is the hottest handload listed for the 7mm RUM - is it closer to 3200 or 3350? According to Chuck Hawkes site: "According to Hodgdon reloading data the 160 grain Nosler Partition bullet can be driven to a MV of 3214 fps."

[echo]

.325 wsm works well for me!!

[whitetailman]

hehehe what did i tell ya this would start a good convo...like hearing what ya guys have to say learn alot actually...

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

I know when I started reading more about BC and such it was a real eye opener.

If you want a real eye opener start comparing real BC for the actual shape of the bullet. Almost all bullet companies use the G1 drag model which is a round nose flat base profile. Why? Because their bullets look good compared to it. A berger VLD is actually a G7 drag profile and a spire nosed boattail is a G5. When you run these bullets through the correct drag model you quickly learn that the real BC is not far off the projectile caliber and not the much vaunted published numbers.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by 209x50

If you want a real eye opener start comparing real BC for the actual shape of the bullet. Almost all bullet companies use the G1 drag model which is a round nose flat base profile. Why? Because their bullets look good compared to it. A berger VLD is actually a G7 drag profile and a spire nosed boattail is a G5. When you run these bullets through the correct drag model you quickly learn that the real BC is not far off the projectile caliber and not the much vaunted published numbers.

Unless you look at Sierra bullets who don't use a generated profile coefficient at all but rather actual coefficients from test firing on the range. They also provide the coefficient measured a varying velocities so if you had a program to do it you could really fine tune the drop tables to be a more accurate reflection of real life performance.

[elkhunter11]

Do you think it would be fair to give the Lazzaroni a 150 fps boost when comparing to your handloads to compensate for the custom loading potential? Wow - that would be a 160 gr. pill @ 3700 fps.

And now for the real numbers direct from Lazzeroni.notice that they are actually less than the velocities given for the factory loads.3500fps is a long way from 3700fps.And these loads were developed in a Lazzeroni rifle with a 27" barrel,and a 1 in 12" twist.

http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_reload_firebird.htm

By the way,Lazzeroni does not list a 160gr factory load,and the 160gr velocities listed in the reloading section do not match the 3550fps listed on the page below.

http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_lacart.htm

And for a comparison,the Hodgdons data manual 26th edition lists 160gr 7mmstw loads producing 3294 fps,and 3286fps.Those numbers are even slightly higher than my own numbers.
And for those who don't know,the 7mmstw is the smaller brother to the 7mmRUM.It has less case capacity,and produces slightly less velocity than the 7mmRUM.

Yes the 7.21 Lazzeroni shoots very flat,but even with a longer barrel and slower twist than normal,the difference is not nearly as much as some would have us believe.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Unless you look at Sierra bullets who don't use a generated profile coefficient at all but rather actual coefficients from test firing on the range. They also provide the coefficient measured a varying velocities so if you had a program to do it you could really fine tune the drop tables to be a more accurate reflection of real life performance.

Sierra's numbers are much better than most because they have went the long way around in order to continue publishing G1 BCs. Yes they shoot them and then convert back to G1 tables in order to maintain parity in the numbers game with other manufacturers. Truth in advertising don'tch ya know! In reality just about none of the bullets out there have a real BC such as the one printed on the box. Eric at Berger has stated they are going to start printing actual G7 BCs on the Berger box. My hat is off to him but it will probably be an uphill battle educating the public on why his bullets are suddenly less efficient than they were yesterday.

[209x50]

if you had a program to do it you could really fine tune the drop tables to be a more accurate reflection of real life performance

Sierra Infinity 6, ExBal, RSI shooting Lab and Ballistic Explorer are the best ballistic software I have loaded on my computer and each has it's own strengths but all are very flexible and customizable.
When you start shooting waaaay out there there are days when most programs aren't with in a foot of reality, good programs allow for environmental inputs to be factored into the shot.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Sierra's numbers are much better than most because they have went the long way around in order to continue publishing G1 BCs. Yes they shoot them and then convert back to G1 tables in order to maintain parity in the numbers game with other manufacturers. Truth in advertising don'tch ya know! In reality just about none of the bullets out there have a real BC such as the one printed on the box. Eric at Berger has stated they are going to start printing actual G7 BCs on the Berger box. My hat is off to him but it will probably be an uphill battle educating the public on why his bullets are suddenly less efficient than they were yesterday.

Could that be the reason that the first box of 7mm 168 grain VLDs was listed at .643 and the last box was .617? I started noticing a difference at 400 yards from the computer generated charts I had made using the .643 BC data. Nothing too huge but that was only 400. Obviously that is amplified the farther you go.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Could that be the reason that the first box of 7mm 168 grain VLDs was listed at .643 and the last box was .617?

No, the G7 BC on that bullet is .316

[bigmeadow]

my 340wby with different grains and hand loads is very flat shooting,

[Vindalbakken]

Ok elkhunter11, I have no agenda about anything. I am simply trying to put out the numbers. Anyone can go to the page you linked and see the 3550 number put out by Lazzaroni themsleves. It is you that has been fabricating numbers all day long, even on your "real numbers" page you can't get your comprehension or the numbers right - what kind of "real numbers" are extrapolations from 7mm STW data?

So... we will use the best case you have been able to come up with for the RUM - 3350 and the worst case we can see for the Lazzaroni - 3500. With the .617 BC bullet that gives a drop of 46.4" and 227.6" for the Ultra Mag compared to 42.4" and 207.3" for the Lazzaroni. A 4" difference at 500 yards and a 20" difference at 1000 yards. The discussion was "Which is the flattest shooting rifle?" Lazzaroni does advertise that custom loadings are available - maybe they would make you one that was slowed down by a few hundred feet per second?

[bingo1010]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Could that be the reason that the first box of 7mm 168 grain VLDs was listed at .643 and the last box was .617? I started noticing a difference at 400 yards from the computer generated charts I had made using the .643 BC data. Nothing too huge but that was only 400. Obviously that is amplified the farther you go.

the reason the numbers on the bergers changed is the first numbers were caculated and then the were changed to an actual, as tested by bryan litz, ex-mil/aerospace engineer, now employed by bereger. he has a book out on long range ballistics, it is very well written for the "common man" to understand and i highly recommend it to anyone out there who is into this long range thing.