Feelings about outfitters

[pseelk]

Although most outfitters are reputable folks there some who think they own the west country and noone else should be out there.Case in point last fall my nephew went out scouting found a natural mineral lick in the bush and put his trail cam out to see what was useing it.When he came back two wks later the outfitter in that area hung a tree stand directly above his trail cam in the same tree.so I can see why some folfs have no use fo them,Fortuately they arent all like that.

[WhiteyChaser]

Originally Posted by hihi962

I am strongly against guides, I have had numerous bad experiences with them... period. when you involve money (especially unclaimed cash income) things go illeagal real fast. Look at the guide Bill Mancura from Andrew, Alta... took police and taxpayers huge resources and 10 years of illegal activity then another 3 years of undercover work to produce 57 charges, everything from exporting horns to shooting at night. and why..?
all because someone figured it was a good idea to make money off wild animals.
we are forgetting the principal here, we are hunting them for their meat. Guides should not make money from the animals.. they do not belong to them.
and what's the deal with their tags...? they get them every year, while citizens have to go on a draw system. boo to that! they sure have a good deal going for them (the guides) a land owner isn't allowed to charge money for access, yet a guide can charge for the hunt. complete b.s.
No matter how nice a guide can lie, most of them have and will bend the rules to get the game for their client.. why? because money is involved, and we all know too well how money corrupts!
I am a farmer, and trust me guys, these so-called honest guides are always offering bribes, for exclusive goose shoots on pea fields, and booze or cash for the big buck living in the back 40... and that's just from what I've seen.
If there is ever a movement to end guiding, I'll support it! heck, I bet they pay less taxes then Hookers do!! (no wonder they love their lifestyle).

haha so u have a problem with outfitters making money off our wildlife? do you also have a problem with oil companies? mines? trappers? forestry? or any other people in those industries making money off of the other natural resources in this province?

[hihi962]

Originally Posted by WhiteyChaser

haha so u have a problem with outfitters making money off our wildlife? do you also have a problem with oil companies? mines? trappers? forestry? or any other people in those industries making money off of the other natural resources in this province?

no.. they pay taxes.
you are trying to compare apples to watermelons, we all benefit from oil and gas production, mineral mines, and forestry. the country gets huge revenu from them, millions of jobs (which all pay personal tax), and prosperity.
what doest the guide do for anyone other then himself... I sure would like to see a few of their T4's, they get the americanas to pay cash so they dodge having to pay any tax.

[echo]

Originally Posted by hihi962

no.. they pay taxes.
you are trying to compare apples to watermelons, we all benefit from oil and gas production, mineral mines, and forestry. the country gets huge revenu from them, millions of jobs (which all pay personal tax), and prosperity.
what doest the guide do for anyone other then himself... I sure would like to see a few of their T4's, they get the americanas to pay cash so they dodge having to pay any tax.

You can say this about any industry not just outfitting,and if you think that cash does'nt trade hands in the oilfield,mining sector or forestry then you better wake up.

[mikeo2]

The biggest issue/conflicts are with waterfowl guides. It is common practise to offer some kind of "appreciation" for exclusive access. If you dont think they pay farmers for exclusive rights, you're dead wrong. Go try to do some bird hunting in the Lloydminster/Vermilion area and I guarantee you run into a bunch of "its all tied up" or "which guide do you work for" or so and so guiding has it tied up for the fall". I have buddies who have guided and spotted for outfitters in that area and in the Peace River area and I have personally heard/saw the "transactions" of money changing hands with landowners. If they ever get called on it, they claim the landowner is "spotting" for the guide and thats why he's getting paid. There are a couple of big seed farmers (10,000+ acres) in the lloydminster/wainwright areas that get paid an anual rate for exclusive access. I have no problem competing with outfitters and non-residents if they were on the same playing field as us residents and not paying for access.

[firegod74]

I have no issue with guides. I have never met one, or had one interfere with a hunt due to locking up hunting rights on private property.
However I don't like tag allocations that mean I as a resident get turned down, while an American hunter who really only wants a big set of antlers for his wall, pays some cash and gets his moose.
Its not the guides I hate, or the american hunters. Its my empty freezer at the end of November.

[yamaha 1]

Originally Posted by firegod74

I have no issue with guides. I have never met one, or had one interfere with a hunt due to locking up hunting rights on private property.
However I don't like tag allocations that mean I as a resident get turned down, while an American hunter who really only wants a big set of antlers for his wall, pays some cash and gets his moose.
Its not the guides I hate, or the american hunters. Its my empty freezer at the end of November.

Are you willing to pay $5,000 to $10,000 per hunt, if so, by all means you can hunt your animals every year too. The outfitters are alloted a small % of tags per zone to use. You can look up all the info at APOS web.sight. Before you all start bashing me, I'm just a hunter not an outfitter. As far as the other guy saying they don't pay tax's WHAT!!! I know one small outfitter around here that gets a Tax Audit every year. ( have to be paying taxes to get audited). There are good outfitters and real bad ones, Apos need to clamp down on the bad ones ( throw the book at them, take there allocations away when they get caught ). We do need stronger punishment for the bad apples.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by yamaha 1

The outfitters are alloted a small % of tags per zone to use. You can look up all the info at APOS web.sight..

Hi there. Couldnt find that info on their website. Could you link it for me? Thanks.

[DAVE]

Originally Posted by hihi962

I am strongly against guides, I have had numerous bad experiences with them... period. when you involve money (especially unclaimed cash income) things go illeagal real fast. Look at the guide Bill Mancura from Andrew, Alta... took police and taxpayers huge resources and 10 years of illegal activity then another 3 years of undercover work to produce 57 charges, everything from exporting horns to shooting at night. and why..?
all because someone figured it was a good idea to make money off wild animals.
we are forgetting the principal here, we are hunting them for their meat. Guides should not make money from the animals.. they do not belong to them.
and what's the deal with their tags...? they get them every year, while citizens have to go on a draw system. boo to that! they sure have a good deal going for them (the guides) a land owner isn't allowed to charge money for access, yet a guide can charge for the hunt. complete b.s.
No matter how nice a guide can lie, most of them have and will bend the rules to get the game for their client.. why? because money is involved, and we all know too well how money corrupts!
I am a farmer, and trust me guys, these so-called honest guides are always offering bribes, for exclusive goose shoots on pea fields, and booze or cash for the big buck living in the back 40... and that's just from what I've seen.
If there is ever a movement to end guiding, I'll support it! heck, I bet they pay less taxes then Hookers do!! (no wonder they love their lifestyle).

X2 I am in between bill and lloyd and could right a book a thick one over the last 28 years.

[hihi962]

Originally Posted by yamaha 1

The outfitters are alloted a small % of tags per zone to use.

yea.. but remember, what is the success rate of a resident hunter?? I can't remember what it is, but it's like single digits or close to it like 15% success of tagging an elk as example. while the guide has someone in the bush everyday till the tag gets filled, so eventhough you guys aregue there are less guides then locals, they pull out way more game, statistically.

and don't even get me started on waterfowl!! for every resident hunter, I am willing to bet my hard earned taxed dollars that the guided tag kills 10:1. they have a shoot once/twice almost every day.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by mikeo2

The biggest issue/conflicts are with waterfowl guides. It is common practise to offer some kind of "appreciation" for exclusive access. If you dont think they pay farmers for exclusive rights, you're dead wrong. Go try to do some bird hunting in the Lloydminster/Vermilion area and I guarantee you run into a bunch of "its all tied up" or "which guide do you work for" or so and so guiding has it tied up for the fall".....

I seem to recall that a similar issue was taken care in the Provost area a few years back by "fencelining".

I believe locals and resident Albertan's ensured that there was enough visual and perhaps auditory disruption on the fenceline of the property in question that any "outfitter" who thought he would tie up the land would have little success for his clients... the geese were frightened away before they ever went into the field.

The tactic seemed to have worked then... just saying

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by yamaha 1

Are you willing to pay $5,000 to $10,000 per hunt, if so, by all means you can hunt your animals every year too. .

are you sure about that? thats not how i understand it.

as for non res buying tags....i still dont agree. the wealthy get more opportunities period. all tags should be on draw and the successful applicant can then use a guide at his/her discretion. im sure there are a ton of people out there that would love the chance to hunt alberta that just cant afford or justify the going rate the way it is.

also, with the paid access issue, i have been told personally what the going rate is for a parcel here in the south. when i volunteered to fish and wildlife to make a deal with them watching, they declined. i never got a satisfactory response as to why......but i have a theory.......

[triple s]

Originally Posted by hihi962

yea.. but remember, what is the success rate of a resident hunter?? I can't remember what it is, but it's like single digits or close to it like 15% success of tagging an elk as example. while the guide has someone in the bush everyday till the tag gets filled, so eventhough you guys aregue there are less guides then locals, they pull out way more game, statistically.

and don't even get me started on waterfowl!! for every resident hunter, I am willing to bet my hard earned taxed dollars that the guided tag kills 10:1. they have a shoot once/twice almost every day.

I never have a problem filling my tags nor have access problems so are you go to say im doing things wrong .Don't worry you have just made it loud and clear you would like to be paid for access your upset that someone spends more time in field and can't figure out why the success rates are low!!

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by yamaha 1

Are you willing to pay $5,000 to $10,000 per hunt, if so, by all means you can hunt your animals every year too..

Thats not the case, unless you're speaking of travelling to another Province or State to do your hunting...

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Thats not the case, unless you're speaking of travelling to another Province or State to do your hunting...

Are you saying that an AB resident is not allowed to purchase a hunt from an AB outfitter??

tm

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Are you saying that an AB resident is not allowed to purchase a hunt from an AB outfitter??

tm

Nope...not permitted.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Are you saying that an AB resident is not allowed to purchase a hunt from an AB outfitter??

tm

Thats what I've been told in the past. So, as an Alberta resident I may have to wait 6-8 years to draw in an antelope zone, but if I wanted to buy that same tag from an outfitter I would not be able to. A non-resident could hunt that tag every year in the same zone. Same goes for mule deer, 410 sheep tags, moose, elk, etc...

[elkhunter11]

Are you saying that an AB resident is not allowed to purchase a hunt from an AB outfitter??

Regardless of what the Alberta resident is prepared to pay, he can't purchase a non resident license, and use an outfitters allocation.

[Tundra Monkey]

Thanx guys....that seems crazy to me. Apparently your money is no good lol.

They must have a reason, but for the life of me I can't figure it out. Seems like a guy living in the far SE of the province might enjoy a baited bear hunt in Northern AB......that commute to check/restock the baits is gonna be a killer with gas prices though!!!!!!!!!

Can an AB resident purchase the Premier's Sheep Tag at auction??

tm

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Thanx guys....that seems crazy to me. Apparently your money is no good lol.

They must have a reason, but for the life of me I can't figure it out. Seems like a guy living in the far SE of the province might enjoy a baited bear hunt in Northern AB......that commute to check/restock the baits is gonna be a killer with gas prices though!!!!!!!!!

tm

Nothing stopping you from hunting with an outfitter if you have your own tag. As bear tags are general, you'd be fine. You just can't use an outfitter's tag to get around the draw system.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Thanx guys....that seems crazy to me. Apparently your money is no good lol.

They must have a reason, but for the life of me I can't figure it out. Seems like a guy living in the far SE of the province might enjoy a baited bear hunt in Northern AB......that commute to check/restock the baits is gonna be a killer with gas prices though!!!!!!!!!

tm

They could pay an outfitter for these services, but the tag is a General tag so they could just buy that tag and then hire an outfitter.

The part that causes issues is with special licenses. A resident must draw the special license and cannot purchase an 'allocation' from an Alberta outfitter.

Hope that makes sense. **EDIT** Sheephunter beat me to the post...

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Nothing stopping you from hunting with an outfitter if you have your own tag. As bear tags are general, you'd be fine. You just can't use an outfitter's tag to get around the draw system.

Ok...I gotya, but I don't understand the logic. I don't look at it as "getting around the draw"......more like spending my taxed dollars on what I want to spend it on. Either your neighbour or a dude from Texas is gonna kill it. I'm of the opinion that if a guy wants to pay for the tag and the outfitter has one.......he should be able to hunt.

With the draw on decent sheep areas being what they are......I would have absolutely no issue with an AB resident paying for an outfitted hunt.

tm

[H380]

Originally Posted by hihi962

I am strongly against guides, I have had numerous bad experiences with them... period. when you involve money (especially unclaimed cash income) things go illeagal real fast. Look at the guide Bill Mancura from Andrew, Alta... took police and taxpayers huge resources and 10 years of illegal activity then another 3 years of undercover work to produce 57 charges, everything from exporting horns to shooting at night. and why..?
all because someone figured it was a good idea to make money off wild animals.
we are forgetting the principal here, we are hunting them for their meat. Guides should not make money from the animals.. they do not belong to them.
and what's the deal with their tags...? they get them every year, while citizens have to go on a draw system. boo to that! they sure have a good deal going for them (the guides) a land owner isn't allowed to charge money for access, yet a guide can charge for the hunt. complete b.s.
No matter how nice a guide can lie, most of them have and will bend the rules to get the game for their client.. why? because money is involved, and we all know too well how money corrupts!
I am a farmer, and trust me guys, these so-called honest guides are always offering bribes, for exclusive goose shoots on pea fields, and booze or cash for the big buck living in the back 40... and that's just from what I've seen.
If there is ever a movement to end guiding, I'll support it! heck, I bet they pay less taxes then Hookers do!! (no wonder they love their lifestyle).

Don't sugar coat it , tell us how you really feel ,LOL.. As a farmer , and landholder , have you ever been offered a " bribe" or gift from a hunter for allowing him access to your place ?I'm not saying "guide" I'm talking hunter ..

[Tundra Monkey]

If I was the AFGA or whoever it is in charge of the Auctioned Premier's Tag.....I would be sending a resident down to the auction to drive the price up as high as he can. Then I'd turn around and say..."whatya mean I can't hunt because of my address?? What kinda racist crud is that!!!!!"

Give it to the guy who stepped out last at what he bid

tm

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

If I was the AFGA or whoever it is in charge of the Auctioned Premier's Tag.....I would be sending a resident down to the auction to drive the price up as high as he can. Then I'd turn around and say..."whatya mean I can't hunt because of my address?? What kinda racist crud is that!!!!!"

Give it to the guy who stepped out last at what he bid

tm

The Minister's Tag is not an Allocated Outfitter tag and I'm assuming it could be bought my an Alberta resident if someone was so inclined. It sold to a resident of BC last year actually.

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

If I was the AFGA or whoever it is in charge of the Auctioned Premier's Tag.....I would be sending a resident down to the auction to drive the price up as high as he can. Then I'd turn around and say..."whatya mean I can't hunt because of my address?? What kinda racist crud is that!!!!!"

Give it to the guy who stepped out last at what he bid

tm

LOL...just to further confuse you, an Alberta resident can buy the Minister's Special Licence and in fact it has been bought twice by an Albertan.

I think part of the reason for not allowing residents to use outfitter allocated tags is because it prevents Albertans from buying the allocations and using them for personal use rather than outfitting as they were intended. Alberta is unique in that outfitters actually own the tag, not an area.

As for the sheep, there is only one resident draw hunt that has outfitter tags in it. That's an archery hunt in WMU410. All the other draw hunts for residents have no outfitter tags.

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by mikeo2

The biggest issue/conflicts are with waterfowl guides. It is common practise to offer some kind of "appreciation" for exclusive access. If you dont think they pay farmers for exclusive rights, you're dead wrong. Go try to do some bird hunting in the Lloydminster/Vermilion area and I guarantee you run into a bunch of "its all tied up" or "which guide do you work for" or so and so guiding has it tied up for the fall". I have buddies who have guided and spotted for outfitters in that area and in the Peace River area and I have personally heard/saw the "transactions" of money changing hands with landowners. If they ever get called on it, they claim the landowner is "spotting" for the guide and thats why he's getting paid. There are a couple of big seed farmers (10,000+ acres) in the lloydminster/wainwright areas that get paid an anual rate for exclusive access. I have no problem competing with outfitters and non-residents if they were on the same playing field as us residents and not paying for access.

Yep!! I've seen this first hand! And now they are getting into locking up prime deer hunting properties..Matter of fact, some of our regulars that we seek permission from say..Oh for sure hunt on our land, just as long as there are not any of those guides that bring "mericans" with you! I don't like the guiding thing at all! That being said because they are greasing for permission.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...just to further confuse you, an Alberta resident can buy the Minister's Special Licence and in fact it has been bought twice by an Albertan.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yup....now I'm lost

I think part of the reason for not allowing residents to use outfitter allocated tags is because it prevents Albertans from buying the allocations and using them for personal use rather than outfitting as they were intended. Alberta is unique in that outfitters actually own the tag, not an area. .

OK.....I see they got a sort of valid point.


I'm staying up here.....this system you guys got is too deep for me

I like the, "Can I please have my sheep tag?"........."Yup, that'll be $20.70 Sir."

Ok, that last part is bs.....an ENR Officer would never refer to a customer as Sir

She's usually about a $200 stop for a seasons big gametags for me.....mind you I got one in my pocket for all but 2 weeks of the year so that is sweet.

tm

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

OK.....I see they got a sort of valid point.


I'm staying up here.....this system you guys got is too deep for me

I like the, "Can I please have my sheep tag?"........."Yup, that'll be $20.70 Sir."

Ok, that last part is bs.....an ENR Officer would never refer to a customer as Sir

She's usually about a $200 stop for a seasons big gametags for me.....mind you I got one in my pocket for all but 2 weeks of the year so that is sweet.

tm

We get our sheep tags the same way....except the kid at Canadian Tire does call you Sir.

It's not so bad down here. There are a few draw areas for sheep that offer exceptional opportunity but still loads of great general areas.

[elkhunter11]

I think part of the reason for not allowing residents to use outfitter allocated tags is because it prevents Albertans from buying the allocations and using them for personal use rather than outfitting as they were intended.

Are you suggesting that the outfitters that own the allocations would abuse the system, and use the tags for their personal use? You could stipulate that no outfitter could use a non resident allocation to deal with that possibility.