Wild Horses: "Someones Garbage that should be properly disposed of." TJ Schwanky

Originally Posted by Scotty P.

Either of you care to take your own advise and post some scientific reasons for your opinion?

They compete directly with our native wildlife for food, for space, for thermal cover. There no denying that. Let's say a feral horse eats 25-30 pounds of food a day and times that by a minimum of 600 horses. That's 15,000 - 18,000 pounds of food a day being taken away from our elk, deer and in some cases sheep. There, how's that for some quick science

Now what's your science for keeping them?

[walking buffalo]

Hey Sheephunter,

I'll wait until after viewing the final cut before accepting any recognition for coaching.

I'm glad you did this interview. Looking forward to seeing the show.


In the very brief time I had to do some research for the interview, I spent most of it speaking with Alberta Lands managers responsible for these Stray horses. I can post a few bits of new informaton about Strays. Capture permits are still being issued, the number of permits for the 2010/2011 season ( which closed March 1) were around a dozen. While not an official final capture number, there were less than 3 dozen stray horses caught this winter.

The province is compiling data from the winter dedicated Stray horse arial survey. Last years survey had a count of 650 Stray horse sighted in the
Designated Horse Capture Areas. This is an absolute Minimum number of horses, no calculations were included for areas not flown or for horses not seen due to cover. While the survey protocal isn't formated to include unobserved animals, there are likely at least twice as many Stray horses in the hills. This years count is showing that there is an increase in Strays. The government has been dealing with an increase in incidents of unwanted horses being released in the wild. These released horses are definately responsible for a significant increase in the survey numbers.

IMO, the government is attempting to put more effort into Stray horse management, out of neccessity. There are efforts being made to refine the Stray Horse arial survey, and there is research being conducted to determine the impact of Stray horses on wildlife. There are several winter ranges where these horses are competing heavily with elk and sheep for limited grazing. This is a real and serious concern, and will only get worse is these horses are not controlled.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by rugatika

To each their own I suppose, but I don't understand why someone would want to see a freaking herd of horses out in the wild.


Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly is the argument for letting them stay??

That is the problem, you dont understand why just like we dont understand why you think the way you do.

Many people enjoy seeing horses out there, many people grew up knowing and seeing them heards almost every day. Many saw the animal populations rise with the horses there and also watched them fall while the horses were there. They have seen the actual cause of the populatipon struggles. They have seen what is removing the animals from the west country. They have seen the exact issues in areas with horses as they have without horses.

Some want to tackle the big contributing factors that will give our populations the boost they need. Some dont want to just try and fix a small little possible issue that may help a little or may not.

Like you said most dont understand the others guys thoughts. There has been no documented proof either way so its all speculation and opinions.

SG

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by honda450

Well redfrog ya still have not given me a solid reason to get rid of the horses.

A pest?

Thats the best ya can do.

do you think we should have pigs and llamas out there too? How are the horses different.
They compete with wildlife for feed and range, what else do you need to know?

[honda450]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya but right now we are talking about horses, not cattle. I'm sure there are lots of other stressors to wildlife we could look at too but the issue at hand is horses but you, like most of those involved in this debate cannot come up with a reason for horses to remain on the landsscape so you try to deflect attention to something else. Let's just talk horses because no matter how much you want it so, two wrongs will not make them right. Horses are the issue at hand....not pink elephants or red herrings.

Well I could say the same sheep you have not given a good reason of why they should go.

I am talking controlled numbers here. Not a free for all.

Originally Posted by honda450

Well I could say the same sheep you have not given a good reason of why they should go.

I am talking controlled numbers here. Not a free for all.

Read my post above Honda, I didn't pull those number out of my butt. The reason of how much food alone they consume is reason enough so no, you couldn't say the same about me. I've given some reasons why they should go. If you chose not to read them, well I guess there's not much I can do about that.

[pope]

There is a long list of invasive species, norway rat, feral dogs and cats, hogs, grey squirrel, pheasants, partridge, brown trout, fuzzy bunnies of Canmore, etc - don't think pink elephants are on the list.
Just because they are invasive does't mean they don't belong (Jmo). I look at it through the sportsman eyes - if they do more good, then great! Why should I prove what harm the horses do, what good are they?
I'd vote to keep the brown trout and pheasants, and get rid of the feral horses, fuzzy bunnies of Canmore, and pink elephants.

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

They compete directly with our native wildlife for food, for space, for thermal cover. There no denying that. Let's say a feral horse eats 25-30 pounds of food a day and times that by a minimum of 600 horses. That's 15,000 - 18,000 pounds of food a day being taken away from our elk, deer and in some cases sheep. There, how's that for some quick science

Now what's your science for keeping them?

Where did I state that I had scientific reasoning for keeping them? I just found it funny that one side of this debate was asking for scientific fact when they had not posted any themselves. Sorry if I hurt your feelings TJ that was not my intention.

Originally Posted by Scotty P.

Where did I state that I had scientific reasoning for keeping them? I just found it funny that one side of this debate was asking for scientific fact when they had not posted any themselves. Sorry if I hurt your feelings TJ that was not my intention.

LOL...takes a lot more than that to hurt my feelings. I think if you read back through the countless threads about wild horses on this board you'd see that there is indeed much scientific evidence to support the fact that they do compete against our native wildlife. Heck, anyone that's ever seen a horse realizes grass goes in one end and manure comes out the other. I guess some things that just seem obvious to me aren't always so obvious. Anyhow, no offence taken. Glad I could pass along a little science

[Scotty P.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...takes a lot more than that to hurt my feelings. I think if you read back through the countless threads about wild horses on this board you'd see that there is indeed much scientific evidence to support the fact that they do compete against our native wildlife. Heck, anyone that's ever seen a horse realizes grass goes in one end and manure comes out the other. I guess some things that just seem obvious to me aren't always so obvious. Anyhow, no offence taken. Glad I could pass along a little science

Thank you very much! I will start searching right now.

[honda450]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Read my post above Honda, I didn't pull those number out of my butt. The reason of how much food alone they consume is reason enough so no, you couldn't say the same about me. I've given some reasons why they should go. If you chose not to read them, well I guess there's not much I can do about that.

Hehe these posts are coming in fast so I may of missed that one. I am a one finger typer.

Controlled numbers TJ............controlled numbers.

[duffy4]

I know that SRD (Forest land use people) are interested in the feral horses.

They have flown heli-surveys to count them in some areas and used to ask F&W to keep count on them during wildlife surveys (ACA does these now and I don't know if they keep count).

At one time I had heard rumours that Forestry was trying to get someone (U of A grad student??) to do a study of the feral horses (population dynamics, inter action with wildlife, that sort of thing).

That kind of study should answer some of the questions here and help SRD make some kind of "management plan" (that I would think would include some kind of "population control" at the least)

[roger]

Originally Posted by duffy4

help SRD make some kind of "management plan" (that I would think would include some kind of "population control" at the least)

how about with every bear tag purchased your entitled to harvest one horse for the purpose of baiting a legal big game animal.

some would do it, most would not, at least it can be 'enjoyed' by everyone.


I see wild dogs on a indian reservation everyday, maybe we should 'save' them too.

[roger]

too bad we couldnt introduce the 600 grizzly bears that are left in alberta to 600 feral horses.
solves two problems, feed the homeless to the hungry..

[dale7637]

Why is it that these horses are getting all of the fame and publicity when we have had wild horses up here for as long as anyone can remember? Is this something that is just an issue because there is someone making a stink about it, or is it actually an issue?? Seems odd to me that they are making a big deal about the herd down south but nobody is talking about the herds up here???

I think a big part of the reason is that numbers seem to be increasing, at least according to anecdotal evidence. I suspect the herd up there is a bit more out of sight/out of mind for most Albertans. I think the illegal shooting of some horses down here gave them a higher profile too.

[steve]

Originally Posted by steve

Right now there is next to no capture permits. Some areas that have a pile of horses will have permits for one or two horses.

What is actually expected here? That there will be a rifle season? A bounty for live wildies? Allowing to trap them again?

So how are we going to "properly dispose of the garbage"?

I highly doubt shooting will be allowed.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by roger

too bad we couldnt introduce the 600 grizzly bears that are left in alberta to 600 feral horses.
solves two problems, feed the homeless to the hungry..

I like it, nice and neat! LOL!

Originally Posted by steve

So how are we going to "properly dispose of the garbage"?

I highly doubt shooting will be allowed.

It wouldn't be easy and wouldn't happen on a weekend but trapping is likely the most practical means.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It wouldn't be easy and wouldn't happen on a weekend but trapping is likely the most practical means.

Is this something that may happen in the near future? Who would regulate it, is it SRD's department or agriculture?

Originally Posted by steve

Is this something that may happen in the near future? Who would regulate it, is it SRD's department or agriculture?

Both million dollar questions. I suspect the responsibility would fall to SRD though.

[AB2506]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

SG I am surprised on your attitude of a feral/invasive sps in our great rocky mtn ecosystem. Feral horses are just invasive sps that look cute or that people have as pets. Do you feel the same for spotted Knapweed in the rangelands??

If horses belonged in our foothills they would have evolved there but they didn't and hence don't belong there.

Take your emotions out of the issue and it is quite simple. Spotted knapweed, oxed-eye daisy, feral horse, etc don't belong in our native habitat and should be removed like the invasive sps they are so they don't take away from our native sps.

100% x2!!!

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Both million dollar questions. I suspect the responsibility would fall to SRD though.

I think if there was any major concerns or a motion to start controlling wildie numbers. That capture permits would be over the counter and in larger numbers or on a quota system. There's alot of talk here on AO about this, but has SRD acknowledged that there's a problem?

There's colts on the flats now that we are going to run soon. Legally a guy cant throw a rope at them in most areas. The capture permits are for mature studs that would be a death wish to you and your saddle horse.

Originally Posted by steve

The capture permits are for mature studs that would be a death wish to you and your saddle horse.

LOL...ya, it can be done but not for the faint of heart that's for sure.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by steve

Is this something that may happen in the near future? Who would regulate it, is it SRD's department or agriculture?

SRD is reponsible for these stray livestock. "Hunting" will not happen. Increasing the capture permits is an option. The # of permits were initially decreased due to political pressure. Now that the economics of capturing these horses nearly guarantees a loss, there are few people who are requesting permits to capture them.

The government also has the option of dealing with the horses on their own terms. They could cull or capture the horses themselves.

When the new survey numbers and research comes out, I think you will see an increased opportunity for permits, and even direct government involvement in reducing the population.

On another angle, there is the opportunity for Treaty card holders to shoot these horses. They can kill them by treaty rights, but they can only live capture them with a permit.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...ya, it can be done but not for the faint of heart that's for sure.

pffffft......All ya gotta do is run up to it and bite it on the ear. I seen it on tv

I think the dude stayed at a Holiday Inn though

tm

[steve]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

SRD is reponsible for these stray livestock. "Hunting" will not happen. Increasing the capture permits is an option. The # of permits were initially decreased due to political pressure. Now that the economics of capturing these horses nearly guarantees a loss, there are few people who are requesting permits to capture them.

The government also has the option of dealing with the horses on their own terms. They could cull or capture the horses themselves.

When the new survey numbers and research comes out, I think you will see an increased opportunity for permits, and even direct government involvement in reducing the population.

On another angle, there is the opportunity for Treaty card holders to shoot these horses. They can kill them by treaty rights, but they can only live capture them with a permit.

Id be interested in how the survey was conducted. There is big herds south of the Braz and west of the Sunchild, that if not on a cutline would not be spotted from the air.

Be very interesting to see what SRD's target numbers are for the horses. If they see a need for a reduction at all.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...ya, it can be done but not for the faint of heart that's for sure.

I'd rope a grizz first

Originally Posted by steve

Id be interested in how the survey was conducted. There is big herds south of the Braz and west of the Sunchild, that if not on a cutline would not be spotted from the air.

Be very interesting to see what SRD's target numbers are for the horses. If they see a need for a reduction at all.

I think it would be more interesting if they had a target number. There is no management plan for feral horses that I'm aware of.

[steve]

If they are putting funds into a survey, is it safe to say that the goal will not be to eradicate the horses?

But to "manage" numbers as they see fit?

Something that I noticed while spending 30 plus days around the horses this winter,(and this may be minor) is that they are a food source for large predators. Has this ever been thought about? The horses are a easy meal for big the big cats and dogs, generally sticking to the same feeding areas. Having young at different times of the year then our ungulates means more easy year round feed for the preds.

We have a food source for the predators, a food source that doesnt benefit us once hunting season rolls around.