Jasper National Park hunting agreement

[Who Da Fisherman]

Outofbounds
Appreciate the clarity your post makes.
There will be a few I am sure from a lot of the posters mindset that will try to pick this apart. I for one could care less either way. Complaining here goes no where other then sounding like a rant. Don't like it then write your MP.
WDF

[outofbounds]

An example of available firearms that may have been available during early stages of the fur trade dating back to 1733, in Fort Albany a rifle cost 10 -12 made beaver, a pistol would set one back 4 made beaver. In York Factory in 1740, the rifle was 14 made beaver, while the pistol was 7 made beaver. The later exploitation of the traders to mass the cost of rifles to made beavers stacked as high as the muzzle came from greed. The logs indicate primitive firearms had been circulated into the trade and used by Indigenous hunters and trappers and guides as soon as they had been made available either at the trade post or along the routes. The noted prices logged did not include shot nor powder. So again when considering traditional these items grew to be accepted as traditional as they increased efficiency and convenience. No different than the copper pot, steel axe or trap which took the beaver.. Bear in mind Treaty 7 was not signed until 1877. Treaty 6 was signed 1876, The numbered treaties had provisioned for ammunition, thus the government recognized firearms had been incorporated for hunting purposes since inception as trade goods 140 years prior. So traditionally firearms had been used in progression from ball and powder to lever action repeaters in revolver calibers to large bore rifles such as the 1886 by Indigenous hunters including the Stoney and Simpcw First Nation.

[edmsmith]

Why is this thread still open? Multiple people wishing violence towards aboriginals and a bunch more demanding they live like it's 1880.

All over 20 animals they harvested the last time the hunt was available years ago.

I'm not a huge fan of the hunt but the majority of the posts here are a big disgrace.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

Why is this thread still open? Multiple people wishing violence towards aboriginals and a bunch more demanding they live like it's 1880.

All over 20 animals they harvested the last time the hunt was available years ago.

I'm not a huge fan of the hunt but the majority of the posts here are a big disgrace.

Sounds like you need to quit opening this thread and reading it if it's getting you that wound up.
Or perhaps even apply for a mod job and you could then lock it if it bothers you that much

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Sounds like you need to quit opening this thread and reading it if it's getting you that wound up.
Or perhaps even apply for a mod job and you could then lock it if it bothers you that much

Great Idea ! I, for one,would like to see any and all parts of the "recocilliation" debate gone from here. We were at the "paid in full,, and fuller, part years ago.,,, and none of us were ever involved in any of it anyway.. The benefactors will let it go on forever as long a someone is listening. My Great, great, Grandfathers farm was paid in full nearly two centuries ago, in spite of all the hardships he endured. Time to turn the page.

[Dewey Cox]

There is some good discussion on here, and I would hate to see it close.

There is no reason it shouldn't stay open, as long as everyone keeps on the topic of the thread title.

We have so much in common, we shouldn't so easily be divided.

[Grizzly Adams1]

And the rest of us can't even pick a berry.

Grizz

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

There is some good discussion on here, and I would hate to see it close.

There is no reason it shouldn't stay open, as long as everyone keeps on the topic of the thread title.

We have so much in common, we shouldn't so easily be divided.

You've got guys making fun of an indians reconciliation money, others discussing govt spending on indigenous departments, others dissing the chiefs of different nations, others promoting violence like the fisheries out east and multiple posts demanding Indians stick to the bow and arrows like the 1800s.

Most of the posts aren't on topic. Are these the good discussions you see?

Very few animals were taken the last time the hunt happened. Perhaps people should figure out how many may be shot now before getting this worked up.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

You've got guys making fun of an indians reconciliation money, others discussing govt spending on indigenous departments, others dissing the chiefs of different nations, others promoting violence like the fisheries out east and multiple posts demanding Indians stick to the bow and arrows like the 1800s.

Most of the posts aren't on topic. Are these the good discussions you see?

Very few animals were taken the last time the hunt happened. Perhaps people should figure out how many may be shot now before getting this worked up.

Being upset over inequality can be good discussion. People are justifiably angry, yet no one is attacking each other and no rules are being broken.
Or do you belive good discussion only happens when people hold hands and talk while 'We are the World' plays in the background?

1 animal or 20 is irrelevant. Inequality is Inequality.
Or do you believe some should be more equal than others?
Sounds to me like you're just looking for a mod to close the thread and end the discussion because you don't like it.
Typical of people nowadays...

[270person]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

Why is this thread still open? Multiple people wishing violence towards aboriginals and a bunch more demanding they live like it's 1880.

All over 20 animals they harvested the last time the hunt was available years ago.

I'm not a huge fan of the hunt but the majority of the posts here are a big disgrace.

You have options.

[Smokinyotes]

I realize that the indigenous want to keep traditional ways of life but it’s just to bad that they put themselves first and can’t respect that it is a national park where the animals are protected for the sake of shooting trophy animals.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

You've got guys making fun of an indians reconciliation money, others discussing govt spending on indigenous departments, others dissing the chiefs of different nations, others promoting violence like the fisheries out east and multiple posts demanding Indians stick to the bow and arrows like the 1800s.

Most of the posts aren't on topic. Are these the good discussions you see?

Very few animals were taken the last time the hunt happened. Perhaps people should figure out how many may be shot now before getting this worked up.

My thought is great that we have reconciliation and that we all look at the past to learn from it and not to repeat some but that being said we are all Canadians and should all have the same rights.

The native tribes prior to colonization were very much nomads within an area they set up but periodically had to expand their borders. This spilt over to other tribes lands in which battles took place, violent, horrible what was done to each other. Eventually the chiefs could sit and talk to have peace to some degree but that was only if times were good....

I guess what I am saying is there is no culture that has clean hands up to and including today.

Not sure what the fix is completely but we got to get better at governing ourselves and if something is so called legal to do doesn’t mean it is right.

We are all stewards of the land which is a relationship.
One that respects and takes care of the land they own, but also of the land they don't. Someone who is a voice for protecting the soil. Someone who recognizes that valuing the earth's land has a ripple effect on our society, economy, and culture.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Being upset over inequality can be good discussion. People are justifiably angry, yet no one is attacking each other and no rules are being broken.
Or do you belive good discussion only happens when people hold hands and talk while 'We are the World' plays in the background?

1 animal or 20 is irrelevant. Inequality is Inequality.
Or do you believe some should be more equal than others?
Sounds to me like you're just looking for a mod to close the thread and end the discussion because you don't like it.
Typical of people nowadays...

Well said, someone doesn't like a topic, so nobody else should discuss it, that is a big part of what is wrong with todays society. People complain about censorship, yet they want to censor anything that they don't agree with.
This topic is very important where game management, and firearms legislation is concerned, so there is no reason, that we shouldn't discuss it.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

multiple posts demanding Indians stick to the bow and arrows like the 1800s.

Most of the posts aren't on topic. Are these the good discussions you see?

Very few animals were taken the last time the hunt happened. Perhaps people should figure out how many may be shot now before getting this worked up.

Yes. I did state that "traditional" hunts be traditional. FN repeatedly speak that their ancestors lived on the land for thousands of years. And the arrival of euopeans is a sore point as it was the genesis of the issues faced today.

No FN person had seen a firearm until the arrival of the europeans. So, hunting with one wouldnt be considered "traditional".

FN were incapable of wiping out 40 million buffalo with bows and arrows. But the firearm made that possible. And that fact is thrown in "colonizers" faces as a big reason for the starvation of some FN peoples. And rightfully so.

So I find it hypocritical to use firearms for "traditional" hunts as firearms in FN culture are not traditional at all. Firearms were introduced by those who are blamed for today's negative issues pertaining to FN.

My point is what is the time limit on "tradition"?

Is it 150 years and forward? 150 years and back? 200 years? Pre- european arrival or pre- european arrival with post arrival exceptions (like rifles)?

Pre-1492?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Yes. I did state that "traditional" hunts be traditional. FN repeatedly speak that their ancestors lived on the land for thousands of years. And the arrival of euopeans is a sore point as it was the genesis of the issues faced today.

No FN person had seen a firearm until the arrival of the europeans. So, hunting with one wouldnt be considered "traditional".

FN were incapable of wiping out 40 million buffalo with bows and arrows. But the firearm made that possible. And that fact is thrown in "colonizers" faces as a big reason for the starvation of some FN peoples. And rightfully so.

So I find it hypocritical to use firearms for "traditional" hunts as firearms in FN culture are not traditional at all. Firearms were introduced by those who are blamed for today's negative issues pertaining to FN.

My point is what is the time limit on "tradition"?

Is it 150 years and forward? 150 years and back? 200 years? Pre- european arrival or pre- european arrival with post arrival exceptions (like rifles)?

Pre-1492?

Cherry picking...

[ruffy71]

I think the thrust of the discussion on "traditional" methods speaks to the underlying justification for the hunt in the first place.

Indigenous people use words like sacred, spiritual, respectful.

We all can see that scene in avatar where the character has to kill the wounded animal the idiot white guy wounded, and then says a prayer over it.

That is our image.

But then when a modern hunt happens, we see guys dressed in cammo from Cabela's, driving in 4x4 truck, shoot an animal with a high powered rifle and load it into said truck and drive away.

And then we ask ourselves, "how is that any different than what we do?"

"Wait a minute, that's not avatar."

It's a simple as that. Now we can't get inside the minds of indigenous hunters, but I fundamentally believe that people are people, and no group of people on this planet have any special abilities to feel or experience this world in a way that other people can't. Therefore when these issues come up, it rankles. It just does.

[Supergrit]

They got the entire country to hunt but outside of the park animals are wild and to succeed you have to work harder. The park is nice it’s like a zoo with out the cages a place were you can take your kid for a drive and they can see a sheep or elk. It’s a little sanctuary.
Problem with this hunt is it might be the start of something bigger. More hunts at more times and more area.
It’s stupid but native rights inequality keeps growing and no go government has the back bone to stop it.
One guy tried in 1969 it’s to bad it never went through back then cause now we would have seen the benefits of the change he wanted

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How many billion dollars do you suppose Canada has paid out to FN in cash and benefits? This has always been about money, and it always will be. And no matter how much is paid out, it will never end.

100% accurate . All about Money and Benefts with no end in sight. Add Trudeau to the mix and thing really get wonky. All this is about his reconcilliation agenda.
Gad, I have card carrying FN people in my immediate family and not one of them pay any attention to this stuff. Others qualify, but didnt bother with acquiring Treaty cards, and never once have I heard the word "entitlement".
Different strokes for sure.

[~altiplano~]

Race based has no place in law, benefits, privilege, taxation, and more.

One rule for all Canadians.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by ~altiplano~

Race based has no place in law, benefits, privilege, taxation, and more.

One rule for all Canadians.

Sounds great, but it will never happen in Canada, at least in our lifetimes.

[Sirgallagher]

That's pretty rough. How'd you hear about that ?

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

[270person]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

We are all stewards of the land which is a relationship.
One that respects and takes care of the land they own, but also of the land they don't. Someone who is a voice for protecting the soil. Someone who recognizes that valuing the earth's land has a ripple effect on our society, economy, and culture.

Good point re us ALL being stewards of the land to a degree but there's still one big discrepancy. Only SOME of the stewards are putting back in. Via license fees. The rest are just takers. To the extremes of even being granted an annual "allowance" for ammunition.

The traditional and historical ideologies are bunk. Zero traditional about this hunt or any of the rest. And if someone would like to paint me as a racist go ahead and try. My favorite person in this world, whom I love to the point of it being painful when we're apart, is my granddaughter and she's full status. This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with privilege and the playing of the guilt cards. Over and over and over.

[Sirgallagher]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Newsflash:



I just heard that FN harvesters took the opportunity to do some turkey hunting in the Porcupine hills. On the banded birds that hung around the road. The birds that were brought in from BC towns like Kimberley and Trail. The birds that were basically tame from living in towns.

So whatever thousands of dollars and volunteer hours were spent to trap, transport, and relocate that flock was all so a few guys could spend 2 minutes killing them in the first year.



Pretty sad, pathetic, and ignorant.



Hopefully the ACA will use this as a learning experience and only relocate birds to private land or to places that aren't as easy to access....

That's pretty rough. How'd you hear about that?

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk

[Mountain Guy]

https://wsfab.org/wsfab-comments-on-...nal-park-hunt/

[TheIceTitan]

Interesting how the Stoney Nation is involved in this.

In the 1750s the Stoney Nation broke off from the Lakota-Sioux, whose lands were in current-day North Dakota.

Anthony Henday is regarded as the first white man to see the Rockies, in or around the 1750s.

So, it is quite possible a white man saw the "Shining Mountains" before the Stoney Nation which currently resides there took up its residence "from time immemorial".

Embarrassing.

[Supergrit]

I am not denying the past was bad for natives it sucks when you loose land but that how the world works.
This question may come across as a little off.
Did Jasper have a traditional native population I can’t find anything on this subject.
I can’t see Jasper being a traditional hunting land or living space for natives if there was a population there it would have been really small.
Jasper would not have supported much life between the mountain ranges naturally.

[whitetail addict]

Sounds like the traditional sheep hunt has begun.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Supergrit

Jasper would not have supported much life between the mountain ranges naturally.

I would have to disagree. It would hold a lot. That’s a big valley. Look at the wildlife it supports now.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Supergrit

I am not denying the past was bad for natives it sucks when you loose land but that how the world works.
This question may come across as a little off.
Did Jasper have a traditional native population I can’t find anything on this subject.
I can’t see Jasper being a traditional hunting land or living space for natives if there was a population there it would have been really small.
Jasper would not have supported much life between the mountain ranges naturally.

My take only, but there us an awful lot of documented history ,readily available,of the ongoing "squabbles" between the FN people and the Whiteman. My suggestion, to those genuinely interested, is to do some personal in -depth reseach on the subject and learn what the real issues are. I think you will find that in reality, the blame can not be placed on either side. A lot of mistrust and misunderstanding on the FN side and a lot of Greed and good intentions on the Whitemans side. Its not a situation that lends itself to a easy solution as it dates back to the beginning of the initial Treaties and thier interpretations and intentions. Trying to erase the existing mistrust will not be obtained by throwing buckets of money at it .. There can be no reconcilliation until the Treaty matters are resolved once and for all. Both sides have a lot of work to do before we have a chance to see real harmony, not mistrust and revenge.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by Salavee

My take only, but there us an awful lot of documented history ,readily available,of the ongoing "squabbles" between the FN people and the Whiteman. My suggestion, to those genuinely interested, is to do some personal in -depth reseach on the subject and learn what the real issues are. I think you will find that in reality, the blame can not be placed on either side. A lot of mistrust and misunderstanding on the FN side and a lot of Greed and good intentions on the Whitemans side. Its not a situation that lends itself to a easy solution as it dates back to the beginning of the initial Treaties and thier interpretations and intentions. Trying to erase the existing mistrust will not be obtained by throwing buckets of money at it .. There can be no reconcilliation until the Treaty matters are resolved once and for all. Both sides have a lot of work to do before we have a chance to see real harmony, not mistrust and revenge.

Theres been ongoing squabbles between races and societies throughout time, throughtout the world. Heck...watch the news this morning and the conquering is happening as we speak.
Heads were rolling in Europe way before whiteman came over to North America to ''take it over''.
We all have that history if you really want to go back and study it...regardless of where you come from.