Coyote pups still in den?

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but dead is dead ! There is no difference in seasons when hunting predators, you still kill them and this is the goal to reduce numbers.

Your arguments are personal choice, and to begrudge anyone who chooses to control populations when YOU as well let the wind out of them is just hypocritical and argumentative.

You may choose to read the whole thread Sir. My issue is leaving pups in the den to starve and die. I have nothing against population control. I have nothing against shooting predators. Shoot one kill it humainly i'm all for it. Shoot one knowing there is a good chance it has offspring that will be left abandoned and die I do not agree with. Simply stated there is no real need to target them in the spring.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

You may choose to read the whole thread Sir. My issue is leaving pups in the den to starve and die. I have nothing against population control. I have nothing against shooting predators. Shoot one kill it humainly i'm all for it. Shoot one knowing there is a good chance it has offspring that will be left abandoned I die not agree with. Simply stated there is no real need to target them in the spring.

Your opinion, but to think others must agree with your logic is asinine really..

How humane are your coyote kills ? Bang flop every time sir ?

[Jameson340]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Your opinion, but to think others must agree with your logic is asinine really..

How humane are your coyote kills ? Bang flop every time sir ?

More humane then starvation

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Your opinion, but to think others must agree with your logic is asinine really..

How humane are your coyote kills ? Bang flop every time sir ?

So really what your saying is who care what suffers, how it is killed or how long it takes to die because hey not every shot is a bang flop so why does it matter. Who cares how ethical a shot is because really it might not have been a bang flop anyways. Who cares if the angle is right because hey even if it was good it might not have been a bang flop anyways. That to me is as asinine as it comes.

Hey its ok to allow suffering because not all shots are bang flops. Thats some rational thought right there!!

[Redfrog]

Are you having any success preaching your ethics to the crowd? Any converts yet?

When a rancher is calving and he has a coyote problem, he won't be checking to see if a coyote is lactating before he drops the hammer on it.

There's different reasons for killing coyotes this time of year as opposed to fall/winter. whether they are valid or not really depends on whether it is your cow/calf getting eaten alive.

I agree with you that animals shouldn't suffer, but unfortunately that isn't how life and death works all the time. Some starve even without having their parents shot , trapped, poisoned , hit by a car or killed by a falling tree, or eaten alive by a predator.

I only shoot predators this time of year to help a rancher who is having problems with livestock losses. I do not worry about pups in the den in this case.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Y2K

At this time of year would coyote pups still be in den?

in and out and about a bit.

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Are you having any success preaching your ethics to the crowd? Any converts yet?

When a rancher is calving and he has a coyote problem, he won't be checking to see if a coyote is lactating before he drops the hammer on it.

There's different reasons for killing coyotes this time of year as opposed to fall/winter. whether they are valid or not really depends on whether it is your cow/calf getting eaten alive.

I agree with you that animals shouldn't suffer, but unfortunately that isn't how life and death works all the time. Some starve even without having their parents shot , trapped, poisoned , hit by a car or killed by a falling tree, or eaten alive by a predator.

I only shoot predators this time of year to help a rancher who is having problems with livestock losses. I do not worry about pups in the den in this case.

Ya I think ive reached a few. Thanks for asking. And I simply post my thoughts and ideas. Not aiming for anyone to be converted!

And sure if coyotes are killing and causing an issue for sure they should be dealt with. If your slaying them because they could one day eat a calf of whatever do it in the fall and winter and then the pups don't suffer and the pelts can be salvaged and not wasted.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by waterninja

after reading 2 pages of members slagging each other i would like to get back on point a bit. was surprised at the post that suggested that mature coyotes would take over the care of orphaned pups. would have thought that orphaned pups would be food for other coyotes. i also wonder if "daddy" coyote helps with the raising of pups or is mom on her own?

Pups are cared for by both parents and can eat meat and move around well by the time they are 4 weeks of age.

By 6 months of age pups have permanent teeth and are near full grown. By October / November most young disperse and find their own breeding territories but one or more may stay with the family unit.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

So really what your saying is who care what suffers, how it is killed or how long it takes to die because hey not every shot is a bang flop so why does it matter. Who cares how ethical a shot is because really it might not have been a bang flop anyways. Who cares if the angle is right because hey even if it was good it might not have been a bang flop anyways. That to me is as asinine as it comes.

Hey its ok to allow suffering because not all shots are bang flops. Thats some rational thought right there!!

I did ask you how humane YOUR kills are, but sounds like you do realize we don't live in a perfect world

How's your personal beliefs apply when you sir deal with mice ? Oh wait, most liberals feel this species is a menace and will deal with them accordingly...

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I did ask you how humane YOUR kills are, but sounds like you do realize we don't live in a perfect world

How's your personal beliefs apply when you sir deal with mice ? Oh wait, most liberals feel this species is a menace and will deal with them accordingly...

My kills are as humane as I possibly can make them. Yes no one is perfect but I don't intentionally allow any animal to suffer be it coyote, deer or even mice! The issue isn't killing the issue is the chance of suffering. When shooting an animal if you do all the practice, wait for proper shots you can make the humane kills a very high average and very very minimal suffering to any animal. You shoot a female anytime they have young that need them and you are now intentionally allowing an animal to suffer.

You cant seem to grasp that I have no issue with harvesting animals.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

My kills are as humane as I possibly can make them. Yes no one is perfect but I don't intentionally allow any animal to suffer be it coyote, deer or even mice! The issue isn't killing the issue is the chance of suffering. When shooting an animal if you do all the practice, wait for proper shots you can make the humane kills a very high average and very very minimal suffering to any animal. You shoot a female anytime they have young that need them and you are now intentionally allowing an animal to suffer.

You cant seem to grasp that I have no issue with harvesting animals.

No true sportsman or woman intentionally heads out to inflict suffering to any of our prey...

What I can't grasp is you pushing your beliefs on the masses... Get over yourself and get some fresh air man !

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

No true sportsman or woman intentionally heads out to inflict suffering to any of our prey...

What I can't grasp is you pushing your beliefs on the masses... Get over yourself and get some fresh air man !

What am I pushing?? I simply said I dont agree with shooting females in the spring and since its very hard for most to identify sex that would mean basically all coyotes. Some agree and some dont they say their part on why they feel how they do or how they dont and ive said mine and you have said yours. No one is pushing anything on anyone.

And isnt shooting a female or what could potentially be a female of any species while they have young they are caring for intentionally allowing an animal to suffer?

[Cupped N Committed]

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Cupped N Committed

Gunna share LOL

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

And isnt shooting a female or what could potentially be a female of any species while they have young they are caring for intentionally allowing an animal to suffer?

Care to explain your thoughts on archery seasons then ?

Or your thoughts on late season elk ?

Or your thoughts on cow / calf draws ?

None of these draws / general tags are immoral nor unethical in my mind.

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Care to explain your thoughts on archery seasons then ?

Or your thoughts on late season elk ?

Or your thoughts on cow / calf draws ?

None of these draws / general tags are immoral nor unethical in my mind.

Are you intentionally allowing any animal other than the animal targeted to suffer? Are you killing the animals as humanly and as quickly as you can with the equipment allowed? Yep!! Remember the part you cant grasp? I have no objection to killing. But killing one animal and having that death allow the young of that species to possibly starve or suffer is a whole different thing!!

What about late season elk??? Are you trying to associate the young inside as suffering? Im pretty one death covers any suffering there!!

I dont agree with cow or calf draws. Never applied and never shot A female or young in 25yrs of hunting. But if the animal is harvested a humanly as possible for the season it is taken there is nothing wrong with those that do chose too. These young will more often than not survive when the female is taken in the fall. They are no longer relying on the mother for nourishment and have the ability to take care of themselves.

Any other questions??

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

Are you intentionally allowing any animal other than the animal targeted to suffer? Are you killing the animals as humanly and as quickly as you can with the equipment allowed? Yep!! Remember the part you cant grasp? I have no objection to killing. But killing one animal and having that death allow the young of that species to possibly starve or suffer is a whole different thing!!

What about late season elk??? Are you trying to associate the young inside as suffering? Im pretty one death covers any suffering there!!

I dont agree with cow or calf draws. Never applied and never shot A female or young in 25yrs of hunting. But if the animal is harvested a humanly as possible for the season it is taken there is nothing wrong with those that do chose too. These young will more often than not survive when the female is taken in the fall. They are no longer relying on the mother for nourishment and have the ability to take care of themselves.

Any other questions??

Was just pointing out that some may question other aspects of our sport, such as the examples I listed... Doesn't make it right, or wrong, just personal opinion..

Enjoy your day.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

Ya I think ive reached a few. Thanks for asking. And I simply post my thoughts and ideas. Not aiming for anyone to be converted!

And sure if coyotes are killing and causing an issue for sure they should be dealt with. If your slaying them because they could one day eat a calf of whatever do it in the fall and winter and then the pups don't suffer and the pelts can be salvaged and not wasted.

It's called preventitive maintenance, it's should be done in every business that wants to be successful!! You talk about slaying them yet your the guy out there killing in the winter for strictly entertainment, don't even tell me it's to subsidize your income, in essence your killing for fun, I kill them for my livlyhood. Not out of fun but as a necessity to my bottom line.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Cupped N Committed

[Cupped N Committed]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I wish I could join you in a bevy or two. But my tank truck doesn't have auto pilot. Lol (NO!! I'm not posting while driving either!) just covering my hind end from the internet police! Lol

[crownb]

Originally Posted by Cupped N Committed

I wish I could join you in a bevy or two. But my tank truck doesn't have auto pilot. Lol (NO!! I'm not posting while driving either!) just covering my hind end from the internet police! Lol

After this discussion I gonna need a whole bottle,

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by crownb

It's called preventitive maintenance, it's should be done in every business that wants to be successful!! You talk about slaying them yet your the guy out there killing in the winter for strictly entertainment, don't even tell me it's to subsidize your income, in essence your killing for fun, I kill them for my livlyhood. Not out of fun but as a necessity to my bottom line.

I kill them for the same reason I or you kill any animal. The difference is I don't see the need to in the spring when pups are in the den and need support. Funniest part is guys have shown you can have your same lively hood without shooting coyotes in the spring.
Another that can't grasp the concept of there is 3/4 of the year when pups can have a chance on there own if the parents are killed. Spring isn't one of them. And if the coyotes you don't get in the spring or the hole rest of the year you have to hunt them are that detrimental to the survival of your operation the is a bigger flaw in the system.

If you can't harvest enough from summer to late winter for your "preventative maintenance" the couple months the pups are born and started isn't going to fix your problem. Maybe hire Janeson340 to help you out?

[58thecat]

Female coyotes are monoestrous, and remain in estrus for two to five days between late January and early March, during which mating occurs. Once the female chooses a partner, the mated pair may remain temporarily monogamous for a number of years. Coyotes also practice alloparental care, in which a coyote pair adopts the pup or pups of another pair. This might take place if the original parents die or are for some reason separated from them. This behavior is common and is seen in many other animal species.[32] During copulation, a copulatory tie is formed.[33] Depending on geographic location, spermatogenesis in males takes around 54 days, and occurs between January and February. The gestation period lasts from 60 to 63 days. Litter size ranges from one to 19 pups; the average is six.[3] These large litters act as compensatory measures against the high juvenile mortality rate – about 50–70% of pups do not survive to adulthood.[34] The pups weigh approximately 250 grams at birth, and are initially blind and limp-eared.[3] Coyote growth rate is faster than that of wolves, being similar in length to that of the dhole.[35] The eyes open and ears become erect after 10 days. Around 21–28 days after birth, the young begin to emerge from the den, and by 35 days, they are fully weaned. Both parents feed the weaned pups with regurgitated food. Male pups will disperse from their dens between months 6 and 9, while females usually remain with the parents and form the basis of the pack. The pups attain full growth between 9 and 12 months old. Sexual maturity is reached by 12 months.[3] Unlike wolves, mother coyotes will tolerate other lactating females in their pack.[36] There fixed it....

[crownb]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

I kill them for the same reason I or you kill any animal. The difference is I don't see the need to in the spring when pups are in the den and need support. Funniest part is guys have shown you can have your same lively hood without shooting coyotes in the spring.
Another that can't grasp the concept of there is 3/4 of the year when pups can have a chance on there own if the parents are killed. Spring isn't one of them. And if the coyotes you don't get in the spring or the hole rest of the year you have to hunt them are that detrimental to the survival of your operation the is a bigger flaw in the system.

If you can't harvest enough from summer to late winter for your "preventative maintenance" the couple months the pups are born and started isn't going to fix your problem. Maybe hire Janeson340 to help you out?

Haha this just gets funnier, in fact Jameson340 has killed a few coyotes out here, but thanks for the referral. Running my cattle operation doesn't only go for 3/4's of the year, maybe you could tell the coyotes to play nice in the spring and then I could play nice as well, I have asked you two or three times now please please help me with my operation, you seem to have all the answers, you keep saying I am doing something wrong, maybe answer this one. Teach me how to run MY cattle please.

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by crownb

Haha this just gets funnier, in fact Jameson340 has killed a few coyotes out here, but thanks for the referral. Running my cattle operation doesn't only go for 3/4's of the year, maybe you could tell the coyotes to play nice in the spring and then I could play nice as well, I have asked you two or three times now please please help me with my operation, you seem to have all the answers, you keep saying I am doing something wrong, maybe answer this one. Teach me how to run MY cattle please.

Didnt say your operation ran 3/4 of the year. But you have 3/4 of the year with no pups in the den to have a solid predator control system going. Like I said if killing them for 3/4 of the year still leaves you with operation issues then that last couple months isnt gunna save you!!!
Remember the part about many farmers dont hunt or shoot anything at all with little to no problems. But yet you need 12 months of straight hunting to hold your operation together? Even you gotta see the irony in that!!

With 200+ cows do you run a night hand(we ran a bunk house right in the calving field)? Or just check ever few hrs? Lighted calving areas(was a bit of a cost but one underground line and a few poles with yard lights was sure worth it!)? Lower half + of your fence around calving cows page wire or enclosed(stops the dine and dash)? And Electrified? No bush near by for cover? Donkeys? Lamas? Calving barn or protected pens for those close to calving to be moved into untill calved out? Surveillance cameras watching the close calver pens(love this one if you arent spending every minute with the cows)? With such an issue as you have with losing calves I would suspect you try everything. Once again dogs is a big thing. Not little collies or healers. One or two that can take care of themselves and has a big booming bark along with a couple cattle dogs. This in itself help a huge amount. Of course most of this isn't necessary in most operations but seems like yours seem under more pressure than anyone around!!!! And im sure its all a waste of time to write as it sounds like you figure you have it all in order.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

Didnt say your operation ran 3/4 of the year. But you have 3/4 of the year with no pups in the den to have a solid predator control system going. Like I said if killing them for 3/4 of the year still leaves you with operation issues then that last couple months isnt gunna save you!!!
Remember the part about many farmers dont hunt or shoot anything at all with little to no problems. But yet you need 12 months of straight hunting to hold your operation together? Even you gotta see the irony in that!!

With 200+ cows do you run a night hand(we ran a bunk house right in the calving field)? Or just check ever few hrs? Lighted calving areas(was a bit of a cost but one underground line and a few poles with yard lights was sure worth it!)? Lower half + of your fence around calving cows page wire or enclosed(stops the dine and dash)? And Electrified? No bush near by for cover? Donkeys? Lamas? Calving barn or protected pens for those close to calving to be moved into untill calved out? Surveillance cameras watching the close calver pens(love this one if you arent spending every minute with the cows)? With such an issue as you have with losing calves I would suspect you try everything. Once again dogs is a big thing. Not little collies or healers. One or two that can take care of themselves and has a big booming bark along with a couple cattle dogs. This in itself help a huge amount. Of course most of this isn't necessary in most operations but seems like yours seem under more pressure than anyone around!!!! And im sure its all a waste of time to write as it sounds like you figure you have it all in order.

Great tips, looks like you added some useful information after all, I am surprised. Sounds like even after implementing all of these tips that you don't have a here anymore, it sounded perfect, what could have gone wrong.

Let me see I could spend thousands and thousands of dollars and do all of your recommendations and then get a hired man for way to much money, which would work, or kill a few coyotes in the spring while I am doing my chores, I think I will stick with my plan, thanks for the help, and adding to this thread.

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by crownb

Great tips, looks like you added some useful information after all, I am surprised. Sounds like even after implementing all of these tips that you don't have a here anymore, it sounded perfect, what could have gone wrong.

Let me see I could spend thousands and thousands of dollars and do all of your recommendations and then get a hired man for way to much money, which would work, or kill a few coyotes in the spring while I am doing my chores, I think I will stick with my plan, thanks for the help, and adding to this thread.

What went wrong? $180,000 a year with a steady schedule, work 2/3rds of year tops and dont worry about dry years, wet years, hail damage, market prices, fuel prices, BSE type issues or breakdowns.

We never had a hired hand either, 2 family members, day shift and night shift.

Lighting a couple grand tops. Used poles are easy to come by. Rental ditch witch. A couple rolls under ground wire. Auger for the poles. Put it all together call an electrician for an inspection and final hook up. Was a great investment.

Page wire, isnt big dollars, can even just add a couple more rows of barb wire($65/half mile) between your lower strands and electrify it.

At which you can write a pile of it off anyways.

[dmcbride]

I shoot everyone I see regardless of the time of year. Following regulations of course. How many young animals does a coyote take down in there lifetime? If I shoot a mother coyote with 4 or 5 pups it was a good day in my opinion. I just saved a pile of other animals. Like it or not where wolves aren't present man is the coyotes Only real enemy and man has been trying to eraticate the coyote unsuccessfully for many years in other places. You can save 4 or 5 pups by not shooting coyotes in the spring or you can shoot coyotes in the spring and save hundreds of other animals. No brainier for this guy.

[MathewsZ7]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I shoot everyone I see regardless of the time of year. Following regulations of course. How many young animals does a coyote take down in there lifetime? If I shoot a mother coyote with 4 or 5 pups it was a good day in my opinion. I just saved a pile of other animals. Like it or not where wolves aren't present man is the coyotes Only real enemy and man has been trying to eraticate the coyote unsuccessfully for many years in other places. You can save 4 or 5 pups by not shooting coyotes in the spring or you can shoot coyotes in the spring and save hundreds of other animals. No brainier for this guy.

Definate wisdom in times of extreme predator numbers or lower ungulate numbers. Not seeing that in to many areas. But its some peoples prerogative thats for sure. Everyone has there ideas. Always good to see all sides.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by MathewsZ7

What went wrong? $180,000 a year with a steady schedule, work 2/3rds of year tops and dont worry about dry years, wet years, hail damage, market prices, fuel prices, BSE type issues or breakdowns.

We never had a hired hand either, 2 family members, day shift and night shift.

Lighting a couple grand tops. Used poles are easy to come by. Rental ditch witch. A couple rolls under ground wire. Auger for the poles. Put it all together call an electrician for an inspection and final hook up. Was a great investment.

Page wire, isnt big dollars, can even just add a couple more rows of barb wire($65/half mile) between your lower strands and electrify it.

At which you can write a pile of it off anyways.

Like I said, thousands and thousands of dollars, thanks for confirming that, and unfortunately my old man is to sick to help out anymore, it's a one man show, like I said getting a hired man isn't an option, unless you dig a trench for your page wire and bury it the coyotes simply dig underneath. I am glad it worked for you, but there is more than one way to skin a coyote, haha that was a good one, anyway my method is effective for me, like I said I havnt lost a calf to coyotes since that time about 8 years ago and I shoot everyone I can at any time of the year, guess what they are not extinct yet nor do I want them to be, are you really trying to say the coyote population is suffering? Not sure you can't except what I am doing and move on, I praise you for how your operation was run, farming is unique there are so many ways to operate.