Wild Horses: "Someones Garbage that should be properly disposed of." TJ Schwanky

Originally Posted by steve

If they are putting funds into a survey, is it safe to say that the goal will not be to eradicate the horses?

But to "manage" numbers as they see fit?

Something that I noticed while spending 30 plus days around the horses this winter,(and this may be minor) is that they are a food source for large x We have a food source for the predators, a food source that doesnt benefit us once hunting season rolls around.

I wouldn't say it's safe to say that at all. I think they are just trying to get a handle on these horses that they've ignored for so long.

What my research has lead me to believe is they actually aren't a favoured source of prey in most areas. Even if they are a source of prey, having an easy meal year round only means one thing with regards to predators....more of them.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I wouldn't say it's safe to say that at all. I think they are just trying to get a handle on these horses that they've ignored for so long.

What my research has lead me to believe is they actually aren't a favoured source of prey in most areas. Even if they are a source of p[rey, having an easy meal year round only means one thing with regards to predators....more of them.

Predator numbers are a bigger problem then the horses. Maybe less horses would mean a less big predators.

I didn't do any research on cougar and wolves favored prey in a area with feral horses. But I did guide cats off horse kills this winter, and had other cats with horse hair in their stomach. Also noticed large concentrated amounts of wolf tracks around the feeding areas of feral herds. They are keying in on them.

Originally Posted by steve

Predator numbers are a bigger problem then the horses. Maybe less horses would mean a less big predators.

.

There is an arguement to be made there for sure. Not sure if there is enough research to support it but it could be another way feral horses are a stressor to our native ungulate populations. I haven't brought it up because I'm not sure the research supports it one way or another but I wouldn't discount it either.

[Almer Fudd]

Originally Posted by honda450

Yeah and I don't like seeing hundreds of head of cattle that graze the eastern slopes during the summer, lets shoot them too. Far more destructive than a few horses. Now who is competing for forage?

Fun to see 100 head of cattle cross a creek upstream from where your fly fishing.

Open season for horses lets open it up for cattle too.

Cattle are managed, they are allowed into the forestry (public lands) on definite dates and generally all are required out by Oct. 15. The grass grazed is not the typical critical winter range. Cattle will prefer to graze the valleys and that regrowth is much more palatable than ungrazed forage during the winter months. I suspect that in some areas the competiton for the critical winter forage isn't that tough, but I've seen big herds of Elk and Wild Horses on the very critical southern exposures in the Sheep River Sancutary. The Elk and Horses are displacing the Sheep and that (IMHO) is because the Horses have moved west from their usual range in the Death Valley and Gorge Creek area into the Sheep Sancutary.
There's plenty of grass in this area 5 months of the year. It' that period from November-May when every animal is competing for the same limited forage that makes the Wild Horses such a problem in this area.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Almer Fudd

Cattle are managed, they are allowed into the forestry (public lands) on definite dates and generally all are required out by Oct. 15.

Yup, because grass grows like a weed after October 15.

The grass grazed is not the typical critical winter range.

Your telling me the grass grazed by cattle at pasture is not (and never) needed as winter feed for our ungulates?

[Nait Hadya]

a lot of comments from people who know nothing about what is really going on out there. mostly emotional responses from behind the keyboard. another SRD failure; well hell we'll just study and reaserch them. that way no one can say were not doing our jobs. haha some day banff national park will put up a big long fence along their eastern boundary. then the plain truth of alberta mismanagement of it's wildlife rescouces, will be clear for all to see.

[steve]

From your posts lately Nait, I'm not to sure you have a clue what's going on out there.

You beloved kitty cats are doing better then ever before. The new cougar management strategy being put in place is a example of great management.

[DAVE]

We need to bring Alsask back in their Prime they would can 60 hay burnners a day.Nothing better than BQ backstraps.still my favorite.

May be down south 209 or where I guess they are a problem. I have spent a winther ketching them. Some are domestic houses the had got loose at one time my gerations before but some carry the same confirmation and appearence of the Spanish Mustang. They make the best mountain horses.
Caught as colts they are smart and tough. We have used them in pack stings,
some made the best hunter horses. They are sure footed and live on thistles.
I have personally owned two geldings that were crossed with a wildie mare and an Polish Arab stud. In mthe rough country of the high mountains ones
like that are one of mans most valualble posessions. I have seen in a very bad winter the horses paw and the deer and survive on what the wildies have
left. I belive there sould be a permit system like they had in the Red Deer & James River drainages to keep the herds in check but if we eliminated them
we would have lost something we would be sorry for after.
That`s just opinion, no offence to anyone who thinks differently.

[Almer Fudd]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Yup, because grass grows like a weed after October 15.



Your telling me the grass grazed by cattle at pasture is not (and never) needed as winter feed for our ungulates?

Cattle grazing practises in the forestry and especially in and around the Sheep River sancutary have been studied for decades.
Cattle graze where the best forage is and when the forage is gone they then move on. The best, most palatable forage is new growth or regrowth. Managed grazing improves the forage and promotes regrowth. If you look at where the critical winter pasture is today it's the exposed hill tops and south facing hills. My relatives have been grazing cattle in the forestry west of Turner Valley since before WW2 and when they gather in October you will find the cattle on the valleys and in the Aspen areas, not on the top of the hills which is the only open pasture today and the critical winter range for wildlife.
Unfortunately all the best grazing management practises are useless if a bunch of feral horses are competing against the Wildlife for that very limited winter range.
Like I said before there's lots of grass from May-October. It the rest of the year that's a problem.

[Almer Fudd]

Originally Posted by Rancher_49

May be down south 209 or where I guess they are a problem. I have spent a winther ketching them. Some are domestic houses the had got loose at one time my gerations before but some carry the same confirmation and appearence of the Spanish Mustang. They make the best mountain horses.
Caught as colts they are smart and tough. We have used them in pack stings,
some made the best hunter horses. They are sure footed and live on thistles.
I have personally owned two geldings that were crossed with a wildie mare and an Polish Arab stud. In mthe rough country of the high mountains ones
like that are one of mans most valualble posessions. I have seen in a very bad winter the horses paw and the deer and survive on what the wildies have
left. I belive there sould be a permit system like they had in the Red Deer & James River drainages to keep the herds in check but if we eliminated them
we would have lost something we would be sorry for after.
That`s just opinion, no offence to anyone who thinks differently.

I think your right Rancher.
I know of several guys who got Mustangs from the Suffield round up and they turned out to be great horses.
I know several guys who would catch Feral horses on the Bar C and also on the Elbow River and there were some great ponies.
Unfortunately nobody is controlling these Feral horses today and we need them managed or gone. As the slaughter value of horses declines it's not worth the considerable effort and risk to cath feral horses anymore.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Almer Fudd

I think your right Rancher.
I know of several guys who got Mustangs from the Suffield round up and they turned out to be great horses.
I know several guys who would catch Feral horses on the Bar C and also on the Elbow River and there were some great ponies.
Unfortunately nobody is controlling these Feral horses today and we need them managed or gone. As the slaughter value of horses declines it's not worth the considerable effort and risk to cath feral horses anymore.

I think though if permits were opened up you would be suprised how many guys would be out there. It would take a good number of horses out of the population. And areas that are having issues with wintering forage(and that isnt everywhere) could possibly run an incetive program to get guys out there.
Deffinatly alot of possibilities that could be done as any half sane person out there knows the shooting and hunting that has been mentioned will never happen in this day and age.

Then we can move on and concentrate on the predator issue and maybe get our elk elk and sheep herds growing again.
SG

[Robmcleod82]

Originally Posted by honda450

Well if your scared of horses, your probably scared of grizz, black bears, cougars, moose, elk and deer, cause they will kill ya too. Stay in the house. Pretty weak agrument for getting rid of the horses.

Honda I have spent plenty of time in my life in a saddle, I am not scared of horses. On the other hand if I have any animal that is 1000 pounds plus that decides to charge me I am concerned whether that be a horse, a cow, a moose, bear or any other creature. Would I hesitate to shoot any of these not a chance. If you dont respect the power of these animals then you are a fool. The only reason most people are opposed to getting rid of feral horses is because they are cute and cuddley animals. If there were heards of the same size of feral pigs there probably wouldnt be one person on this board that wouldnt be out there trying to shoot one. I dont think that shooting them is the only answer. They could be captured, but most of them would end up going to the canners anyway. So to me there is really no difference between shooting them or capturing them.

This is not so easy. It btakes a lot of time and perparation. We usde per-built catch pens. We had three of them built one winter. I lived in a tent all December and January. Just me & my dog and two horses, one of which was a wildie. Blue roan and a great saddle horse. Each morning I'd saddle up and ride to check pens. This is in the dead of winter by myself. This wildie
I road would not hesitate crossing a glare ice frozen river. I did it each day no matter how cold. That winter we caught 21, kept ten and they all
worked out to be good mountain horses. Turned the rest loose.
When I said we, I 'mean the partner of this endeavor. When I had caught some horses I called him on the cell at home where it was warm,to come and bring the truck and trailer.
I could go on and on about this.
One word of causion; they are wild and could kill ya. I lost all my front teeth
over this. But it was worth it. All the colts turned out to be exceptional mountain horses.

[lannie]

Rancher-
You caught 21 and kept 10, turned the others loose.
I am not judgemental, i am curious. It would be quite fine with me if 11 went to ft. Mcleod. Why did you set them loose ? In my thinking after you caught them they are yours to do what you please. You set them loose, was your choice thats fine too. Why ?

[Robmcleod82]

One word of causion; they are wild and could kill ya. I lost all my front teeth
over this. But it was worth it. All the colts turned out to be exceptional mountain horses.[/QUOTE]
And this comes from a guy who is man enough to try and catch and break these horses.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by steve

From your posts lately Nait, I'm not to sure you have a clue what's going on out there.

You beloved kitty cats are doing better then ever before. The new cougar management strategy being put in place is a example of great management.

when have you travelled 417?

travel 417, (not from the air either) all of, it then come back and give an opinion. cats and wolves ain't bothering horses. there is hardly an inch of meadow,power line,gasline,lease,right-of-way that hasn't been grazed. if that isn't overgrazing ,what is? once upon a time, there was elk there.

[SonnyJ]

lol...

My inmornation is accurate. It comes from the biologist that is in charge of a three year sudy on cougars. I kinow him personally.
One big make cat, over a two year poriod was responsible for killing and eating ten horses, mostly yearlings and two year olds and one old mare
in the Nordegg area. The odd one does like horse meat. The cat was later shot legally form a Rocky area hunter.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

when have you travelled 417?

travel 417, (not from the air either) all of, it then come back and give an opinion. cats and wolves ain't bothering horses. there is hardly an inch of meadow,power line,gasline,lease,right-of-way that hasn't been grazed. if that isn't overgrazing ,what is? once upon a time, there was elk there.

Your ranting about AB's mismanagement, how nobody knows what's going on. Something about a fence along banff.. That's the post I replied too.

Now your taking about a small WMU? That has overgrazing issues

Do you know what your point is? Because I don't

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by steve

Predator numbers are a bigger problem then the horses. Maybe less horses would mean a less big predators.

I didn't do any research on cougar and wolves favored prey in a area with feral horses. But I did guide cats off horse kills this winter, and had other cats with horse hair in their stomach. Also noticed large concentrated amounts of wolf tracks around the feeding areas of feral herds. They are keying in on them.

mule muffins, they ain't keying in on nothing. they use to dump road kills just off the trunk road and cats KEYED in on thoses. wolves trot right through the horse pastures to the sheep and moose.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

mule muffins, they ain't keying in on nothing. they use to dump road kills just off the trunk road and cats KEYED in on thoses. wolves trot right through the horse pastures to the sheep and moose.

Why didn't you just say that then?

I killed cats off horse kills this year, other had horse hair in their stomachs. Toms do a big loop, breed a hot female, and make a bee line straight back to where a herd is (easy feed-guaranteed to be within a short distance of the last kill). Lots of wolf sign in the area also, just my observations.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Rancher_49

My inmornation is accurate. It comes from the biologist that is in charge of a three year sudy on cougars. I kinow him personally.
One big make cat, over a two year poriod was responsible for killing and eating ten horses, mostly yearlings and two year olds and one old mare
in the Nordegg area. The odd one does like horse meat. The cat was later shot legally form a Rocky area hunter.

this story has been going around for so many years it is now urban legend. or would it be rural legend? lol

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

...Well show me a pic of the vast areas they have eaten all the grass! Show me a pic of starving elk dieing because of it! Not one guy has been able to yet....

the proof is out there, because someone can't post a picture to prove to "you" it is actually happening, is not a valid argument. elk will move on, so your request for a starving elk picture to support your opinion,is invalid.

[fat cat]

Let's get something straight. they are not wild. they are abandoned horses that live and do what ever they want. No different than me gathering up 50 dogs from Red Deer, and turning them loose in stettler,and telling everyone not to shoot them, because they are wild, sooner or later you are going to have a problem. I hunted down by Sundre this winter, and there is a problem with the horses. Gather them up, give them to good homes, and start fineing people for turning them loose out there.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

. Suffield elk have no Grizz or Blk bears killing calves in the spring, they have no cougars hunting them, and they have no large packs of wolves hunting them year around.SG

no bears and wolves, but there are a couple of cougars calling the river hills there home. the biggest predator of all however is the real reason. hunting is not allowed inside so they are living the good life in there. the few that get whacked on the perimeter are a tiny percentage.

[Arn?Narn.]

Does anyone have a problem with hunting or shooting Feral pigs?

just curious.

[Almer Fudd]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think though if permits were opened up you would be suprised how many guys would be out there. It would take a good number of horses out of the population. And areas that are having issues with wintering forage(and that isnt everywhere) could possibly run an incetive program to get guys out there.
Deffinatly alot of possibilities that could be done as any half sane person out there knows the shooting and hunting that has been mentioned will never happen in this day and age.

Then we can move on and concentrate on the predator issue and maybe get our elk elk and sheep herds growing again.
SG

That might be part of the solution. I know of several places where fellows have set-up traps over the years to catch Feral horses. On the South side of the Elbow River near Cobble Flats a Millarville cowboy used to have a trap. I saw him get 13 one day.
Some of these Feral horses are pretty smart. If you release once then you will likely never get them thru a trap again.
I believe in Suffield they caught them all at once early in the spring using helicopters and riders.
It would be difficult to capture all the feral horses in the foothills and mountains but it would sure be a nice start.

[H380]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Big thing with this is they were only looking to talk to people that are against the horses and that find them a nuisance. They werent looking for anyones opinions for the keeping of a few herds. Pretty one sided biased reporting if you ask me. And yes I to was approached by the producer but my point of veiw wasnt on the side they wanted to report!


SG

Isn't that a big surprise SG ? It's called "Freedom of the press " , they only tell you what they want you to hear . If your opinion differs from theirs they don't want anyone to hear it ..

[32-40win]

My experience with the wildies is mostly in 318/320. I know a couple of guys up there who used to round them up years ago. There is a quarter on the edge of the forestry west of Bearberry that was fenced for the express purpose of rounding them up and bringing them in. He had to stop about 20 yrs ago.
I can remember running into him or his helpers occasionally out there and up on the Clearwater/ Tay river area.
I didn't see a lot of colts in that zone, there are a good number of cats and wolves in there, we ran across kills in a number of areas each season.
All I can say is there are a lot of horses in that area, biggest herd I saw was on the west side of the lake, to the west off the north end of Brown crk, about 150 animals. There were likely another 75-100 or more on Stafne ridge between the James and the Red. Likely another 100 in Parker valley. Since that area got logged in the mid 90's, they are a lot more obvious.
I've used them as cover to get to animals, had them bust me on a stalk, and been charged by them, and had them fool me into putting on a stalk on noises they made where I couldn't see what made that noise.
They are all over the place in there, they use and create trails in there.
But, even though they are a magnificent creature, I don't really think they belong there. They do need to be managed somehow.