Quality Trout Fisheries in Alberta

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

LOL..........Snap you really can't be that naive. If someone posted on AO that there was a proposal to scrap the gun registry and he posted a means of influencing a vote either for or against it do you think that the AO membership would need to be told to please vote to scrap it?

So, what's your point? That Doc's posting of the thread on a fly fishing forum was to drum up votes across Alberta to find out what anglers REALLY want, or to try to drum up the support of like minded anglers in order to beat the proposal?

I think that we both know the answer to that.

Hey he finally chimed in! Thanks. Disregard my last post first paragraph then.

My point is that the proposal was presented as open (i.e. you choose) and you had posted earlier that it was to defeat the current regs.

Sorry but nothing naive here. Please stick to facts. Would you rather then that it was never posted on the Alberta Fishing Board (i.e. less exposure)?

Dave, just trying to follow through what facts and your thinking here.

[chubbdarter]

All im trying to say is I want facts from people in the know.
I appreciate the democratic process, but its still needs order to be feasable.
Example
the federal government hands the provinces money for infrastructure the province then decides the next allocation...The cities then decide what POTHOLES to fix....I dont want the feds telling me what potholes to fix!!!! THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE CITIES SPECIFIC CONCERNS.
im trying to stay as neutral as possible, and understand facts....but i fear if this common sense process isnt understood....then im to assume you guys did have a azz doctor treat your sore throat.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Okay Dave, looks like your not going to answer or retract what you said about the Alberta Fly Fishing board post. Maybe you feel it is not important to address since you found issue elsewhere. So be it. I guess where you can't win you will simple redirect to somewhere else.

Then, getting back to the source of your frustration on Police. The results that changed the regulation from the link you posted:



Gentlemen, we have a majority here. I'm no rocket science but I'm guessing that 854 votes did not come just from NLFT. I might even leap to say that the majority were likely from the area the lake is located. I don't have any facts to back that but neither does Dave. Dave, you got any? If you do, please provide them here. Otherwise, the only real fact is that regs where changed on a vast majority vote.
I don't agree with some of the statements made on the post like this is a one opportunity to introduce delayed harvest. I'm under the belief that if it failed then there would be other opportunities, where people wanted it.

I also do not see the big conspiracy you are referring to.

"Winning"...

Just a Point there was how many anglers that bought licenses last year- X family so what was the percent of anglers that voted .. hhhhmmmmmm minority voted and Majority was silent

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Lets see

Reg changes

1. no bait.. you just losted 200 anglers from area that used to come with familys and camp there so they could fish with kids.. = 600 people economic loss ..some still come but net loss

2. no ice fishing.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys that came in winter the brought skidoos/quads on ice only(provincal Park).. 300 people economic loss

3. size limit not all will agree will some will come some won't you just lost 50 anglers and familys ... 150 people economic loss

4.reduced numbers to take home or eat at lake.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys ... 300 people economic loss of they money to area and fishing

5. only big lake in area with good productivity... loss 450 anglers and familys... 1350 people economic loss

.6 in the surrounding area you just losted 900 licenses



Gains? just guessing on improvements of people etc

450 more anglers and familys coming to lake ...1350 people economic gain none even?

More anglers in summer that are there for 16 inch fish and you can only keep 1 and love to catch and release little ones now..?

50 vocal people(some Edmonton never fish lake) made recommendation to SRD local office and Changes made

in most cases a public meetings have to be held in the all communities closest to the change and all clubs notified and posted in local papers for a minimum of two weeks

not done ... hmmmmm how does that work? i have some great ideas

Bump

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Bump

Speckle, I appreciate your info about the economic impact however IMO that is not a big concern for anyone wanting to create "quality" fisheries. It's only about being able to catch big fish.

I brought the same point up when sunshine thought that he should start a petition to change Upper Kananaskis Lake into a "quality" fishery. I can tell you right know what you can expect to hear..........the local economy will improve because so many Alberta residents and out of province tourists will flock to Police Outpost Lake because the fishing is so good. The tourists that come in droves will be buying AB fishing licenses like they were going out of style and there will be a significant increase in revenue.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Okay Dave, looks like your not going to answer or retract what you said about the Alberta Fly Fishing board post. Maybe you feel it is not important to address since you found issue elsewhere. So be it. I guess where you can't win you will simple redirect to somewhere else.

Then, getting back to the source of your frustration on Police. The results that changed the regulation from the link you posted:



Gentlemen, we have a majority here. I'm no rocket science but I'm guessing that 854 votes did not come just from NLFT. I might even leap to say that the majority were likely from the area the lake is located. I don't have any facts to back that but neither does Dave. Dave, you got any? If you do, please provide them here. Otherwise, the only real fact is that regs where changed on a vast majority vote.

I don't agree with some of the statements made on the post like this is a one opportunity to introduce delayed harvest. I'm under the belief that if it failed then there would be other opportunities, where people wanted it.

I also do not see the big conspiracy you are referring to.

"Winning"...

Wow...thanks for posting this. I had no idea so many voted. There is a premise that 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 20 that care vote in something such as this...that means a significantly large representation of the fishing population in Alberta. You can roughly times the numbers by 10 or 20 to see a representation of opinion. Very interesting...I did not really want to bring a number in cause I guessed it was 200 and Dave was taking a deep...deep breath before another rant.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Bump

No problem with that Speck. Get out enough notice and exposure and vote. It would be great if there were 100,000 voters. In absense of this, go with the majority you have. So, did something happen differently than this? Are you suggesting that 1,000 or so is not enough and thus the entire vote should be killed?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Lets see

Reg changes

1. no bait.. you just losted 200 anglers from area that used to come with familys and camp there so they could fish with kids.. = 600 people economic loss ..some still come but net loss

2. no ice fishing.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys that came in winter the brought skidoos/quads on ice only(provincal Park).. 300 people economic loss

3. size limit not all will agree will some will come some won't you just lost 50 anglers and familys ... 150 people economic loss

4.reduced numbers to take home or eat at lake.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys ... 300 people economic loss of they money to area and fishing

5. only big lake in area with good productivity... loss 450 anglers and familys... 1350 people economic loss

.6 in the surrounding area you just losted 900 licenses



Gains? just guessing on improvements of people etc

450 more anglers and familys coming to lake ...1350 people economic gain none even?

More anglers in summer that are there for 16 inch fish and you can only keep 1 and love to catch and release little ones now..?

50 vocal people(some Edmonton never fish lake) made recommendation to SRD local office and Changes made

in most cases a public meetings have to be held in the all communities closest to the change and all clubs notified and posted in local papers for a minimum of two weeks

not done ... hmmmmm how does that work? i have some great ideas

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Speckle, I appreciate your info about the economic impact however IMO that is not a big concern for anyone wanting to create "quality" fisheries. It's only about being able to catch big fish.

I brought the same point up when sunshine thought that he should start a petition to change Upper Kananaskis Lake into a "quality" fishery. I can tell you right know what you can expect to hear..........the local economy will improve because so many Alberta residents and out of province tourists will flock to Police Outpost Lake because the fishing is so good. The tourists that come in droves will be buying AB fishing licenses like they were going out of style and there will be a significant increase in revenue.

LOL...So neither of you have fished a quality lake under the existing regulations...yet you purport to make economic observations... Hilarious!

Neither one of you have ever been to Police? Recently? LOL... Figured so.

So the parking lot at Bullshead goes from a handful pre regulation change to over flowing onto the highway. after the regulations. Yikes...looks like your in the dark calculations keep forgetting this is a tried and proven process once the kinks are worked out.

I guess you have done your homework Specs. Clearly way fewer people fish Bullshead now. Apparently they just go there to park and make out. Dave...sitting back hoping and praying...something tangible to hold on to outside your attempted arguments. You have stamina on this topic...so you must have tiger blood and Adonis DNA in ya. I will give you that much.

LOVING IT.

[Sundancefisher]

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=33606

Chubby...here is a report from some fishermen...

Hope that helps.

Anyone else fish it last year that are still paying attention to this long...long thread

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=33606

Chubby...here is a report from some fishermen...

Hope that helps.

Anyone else fish it last year that are still paying attention to this long...long thread

Thank you...for a factual report.

also I need a note from you allowing me to fish your lake whenever i want....im having icefishing with drawls

[Speckle55]

Actually i fished one and posted results... it has a 40 cm no bait and keep 1 limit.. in a week in summer 3 people caught legal fish and 27 went home with out catching a legal fish... it was closed for 3 years first then opened and the first 2 years it was great .. the posted was for last year !

so did the historical record trout for the lakes(bullshead) you named get broke as it have been 3 years ....and Bullshead parking lots have never been full before is that what you are saying?

didnt you guy post it needs more time as it hasn,t worked at Police Outpost.. did you know that sales of licenses was down by 20000 last year..

with other reg changes more pressure on lake and if a few hens got released into lake WOW more pressure.. did you ask SRD if the put any hens in around your area last year if so where or triploids

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

Thank you...for a factual report.

also I need a note from you allowing me to fish your lake whenever i want....im having icefishing with drawls

If you are serious...I would love to host you this weekend. Most likely Sat afternoon or Sunday till late afternoon.

PM me your contact number and we can get set up to go track them perch down.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

If you are serious...I would love to host you this weekend. Most likely Sat afternoon or Sunday till late afternoon.

PM me your contact number and we can get set up to go track them perch down.

K....badback has also been very kind with the invites

I'll check with the warden what she has planned.

[madatter]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

All im trying to say is I want facts from people in the know.
I appreciate the democratic process, but its still needs order to be feasable.
Example
the federal government hands the provinces money for infrastructure the province then decides the next allocation...The cities then decide what POTHOLES to fix....I dont want the feds telling me what potholes to fix!!!! THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE CITIES SPECIFIC CONCERNS.
im trying to stay as neutral as possible, and understand facts....but i fear if this common sense process isnt understood....then im to assume you guys did have a azz doctor treat your sore throat.

What is the fact....that HD,Speck etc continue to ignore that south east Alberta has hardly any quality trout lakes,and the few we have have been made that way by special restrictions.
100000sq kms of bad trout fishing.
The other fact is that no one wants all trout lakes with special restrictions...just more.
As big HD has said he don't give a s...t about southern Alberta...well really if SRD wants to leave em alone up there leave em alone...I don't give a s....t about up there either.....there HD that honest enough for ya?
I find it highly amusing that HD has such an opinion on lakes he has admitted to not knowing anything about,all we get is for the people....democracy....blah blah
As far as economic impact of doing this to a lake anybody who has fished Bullshead will tell you it is extremely busy and if anything has increased the amount of $$$ going out...so Speck that sorta blows your whole economy theory out of the water.
I agree that people who fish the lakes should speak up...which is why I find it so amusing that two guys from up north are the most vocal about lakes like Police...

Fact is it has worked before and people appreciate it

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

No problem with that Speck. Get out enough notice and exposure and vote. It would be great if there were 100,000 voters. In absense of this, go with the majority you have. So, did something happen differently than this? Are you suggesting that 1,000 or so is not enough and thus the entire vote should be killed?

When I read that information a couple of weeks ago I was shocked with the lack of numbers voting as well. Even with a province wide campaign to skew the vote, I think that 854 votes for the creation of a "quality" fishery is a very, very small number of votes. Likewise, only 380 people that voted against it is incredibly low IMO. They must have been the locals I guess? I can't see the pro numbers changing much but something tells me that the against side will be a little smarter and might do something differently this time.........I don't know why.........just a feeling I guess.

For anyone that is wondering what a guesstimate of the number of people that support the creation of more "quality" and C&R bodies of water in Alberta is, perhaps the numbers will put things into perspective for you?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Actually i fished one and posted results... it has a 40 cm no bait and keep 1 limit.. in a week in summer 3 people caught legal fish and 27 went home with out catching a legal fish... it was closed for 3 years first then opened and the first 2 years it was great .. the posted was for last year !

so did the historical record trout for the lakes(bullshead) you named get broke as it have been 3 years ....and Bullshead parking lots have never been full before is that what you are saying?

didnt you guy post it needs more time as it hasn,t worked at Police Outpost.. did you know that sales of licenses was down by 20000 last year..

with other reg changes more pressure on lake and if a few hens got released into lake WOW more pressure.. did you ask SRD if the put any hens in around your area last year if so where or triploids

LMFAO.

You did not even clearly read the post.

Want random noise about the 20,000 license drop...how about crappy fishing at put and take lakes made it no longer worth driving to so people stayed home and gardened.

For you do even extrapolate that 20,000 anglers left due to a small fraction of lakes being changed to better fishing is the funniest thing yet said. Doc...does Muir have less traffic now than before the regs? Bullshead sure is busier. So if the special regs lakes are busier...hmmmm Specs...where did all the fishermen stop going to?

Which lake that had 1 over 40 cm are you referring to? During the same week in previous years...how many anglers went to the lake? Was the lake stocking density appropriate for the growth rates or do they need to tweak that? What was the size of all the under limit fish? Where a bunch of them now due to be harvestable this year? Picking your facts yet not thinking through the topic does you a disservice Specs cause I can tell you would be a wealth of facts. Selectively chosing what facts to highlight...does skew your point does it not?

[Speckle55]

hhmmmm those fish on post are 1 year in lake .. nice fish i think(can't take till16) 16 to 18 inches .and how many years has it been closed 3 hmmmmm should be 24 inches plus and lots of them .. every cast or second cast.. wow thats a great lake i am coming to fish from Hinton .... roflmao .. not going to Koot!!!!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

K....badback has also been very kind with the invites

I'll check with the warden what she has planned.

He is a jerk...fish with me... :-)

Just kidding in case a certain person is watching

Regardless who you go with...come on out...especially if the weather is fine. I will toss in a pound of halibut and a pound of smoked salmon if you can out perch fish me.

Sun

Tip...as of the last two outings...winning is not going to be hard. Having a flasher to track the perch schools down is handy. I have another board member that loves perch fishing...I can see if he is available also. Let me know when you are in.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by madatter

What is the fact....that HD,Speck etc continue to ignore that south east Alberta has hardly any quality trout lakes,and the few we have have been made that way by special restrictions.
100000sq kms of bad trout fishing.
The other fact is that no one wants all trout lakes with special restrictions...just more.
As big HD has said he don't give a s...t about southern Alberta...well really if SRD wants to leave em alone up there leave em alone...I don't give a s....t about up there either.....there HD that honest enough for ya?
I find it highly amusing that HD has such an opinion on lakes he has admitted to not knowing anything about,all we get is for the people....democracy....blah blah
As far as economic impact of doing this to a lake anybody who has fished Bullshead will tell you it is extremely busy and if anything has increased the amount of $$$ going out...so Speck that sorta blows your whole economy theory out of the water.
I agree that people who fish the lakes should speak up...which is why I find it so amusing that two guys from up north are the most vocal about lakes like Police...
At l
Fact is it has worked before and people appreciate it

Not to mention that the motels near the lake get a lot of Calgary customers they never saw before. Hope that is not a PROBLEM Dave and Specs...being as we are taking rooms away from locals and all...

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by madatter

What is the fact....that HD,Speck etc continue to ignore that south east Alberta has hardly any quality trout lakes,and the few we have have been made that way by special restrictions.
100000sq kms of bad trout fishing.
The other fact is that no one wants all trout lakes with special restrictions...just more.
As big HD has said he don't give a s...t about southern Alberta...well really if SRD wants to leave em alone up there leave em alone...I don't give a s....t about up there either.....there HD that honest enough for ya?
I find it highly amusing that HD has such an opinion on lakes he has admitted to not knowing anything about,all we get is for the people....democracy....blah blah
As far as economic impact of doing this to a lake anybody who has fished Bullshead will tell you it is extremely busy and if anything has increased the amount of $$$ going out...so Speck that sorta blows your whole economy theory out of the water.
I agree that people who fish the lakes should speak up...which is why I find it so amusing that two guys from up north are the most vocal about lakes like Police...
At l
Fact is it has worked before and people appreciate it

Im afraid im only familiar with Reesor....we used to camp there lot and catch very nice fish.....is that a candidate for quality fishery?
p.s. on a side note i was always amazed at the amount of trout in the little creek next to Reesor....

[GaryF]

Once again, is the Police issue not a mandated thing after 3 years? From my understanding there is no proposal but a review mandated by the gov when they changed the regs 3 years ago. Anyone?

HD, Speckle, Tosh, none of you answered my question on why we need to harvest 5 fish a day. I would like to see what your thoughts are.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

He is a jerk...fish with me... :-)

Just kidding in case a certain person is watching

Regardless who you go with...come on out...especially if the weather is fine. I will toss in a pound of halibut and a pound of smoked salmon if you can out perch fish me.

Sun

Tip...as of the last two outings...winning is not going to be hard. Having a flasher to track the perch schools down is handy. I have another board member that loves perch fishing...I can see if he is available also. Let me know when you are in.

i have no perch hooks but i have some stonefly hooks i can trade for.....lol

[Speckle55]

[QUOTE=Sundancefisher;880116]LMFAO.

You did not even clearly read the post.

Want random noise about the 20,000 license drop...how about crappy fishing at put and take lakes made it no longer worth driving to so people stayed home and gardened.

For you do even extrapolate that 20,000 anglers left due to a small fraction of lakes being changed to better fishing is the funniest thing yet said. Doc...does Muir have less traffic now than before the regs? Bullshead sure is busier. So if the special regs lakes are busier...hmmmm Specs...where did all the fishermen stop going to?

Which lake that had 1 over 40 cm are you referring to? During the same week in previous years...how many anglers went to the lake? Was the lake stocking density appropriate for the growth rates or do they need to tweak that? What was the size of all the under limit fish? Where a bunch of them now due to be harvestable this year? Picking your facts yet not thinking through the topic does you a disservice Specs cause I can tell you would be a wealth of facts. Selectively chosing what facts to highlight...does skew your point does it not?[/




lol i have my fish mounted i have the proof ..i am a master in my sport what are u .. i have put the time in to learn my quarry.. gheeesss your making me a grumpy old man.. i have put in years teaching and taking people about fish .. i have yearly records for fishing in my area that go back to 1962.. i have fish study,s that go back to 1928.. i have won 4 provincal trophys in fishing.. and you what are yours..

whats happening at Police why aren,t there 4 lbers and better

[madatter]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Not to mention that the motels near the lake get a lot of Calgary customers they never saw before. Hope that is not a PROBLEM Dave and Specs...being as we are taking rooms away from locals and all...

Like I said they have no idea how the lake was before,how busy it is now and how many people come from all over the place to fish it....because of the potential.
It has enormous pressure on it.....within the first week of opening Id bet it sees over a thousand fisherman.
Come on out opening day and see a full parking lot out to the road and tell me more of these lakes are not needed.
Before the regulation change the lake would be lucky to get a hundred fisherman a month,now it gets that in a day.
So Speck dont be really surprised that their are no monster trout cause with the amount of pressure they get and the 1 over 50 limit,they really dont stand much of a chance of getting real big....that is a fact that if you actually fished the lake you would know....

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by madatter

What is the fact....that HD,Speck etc continue to ignore that south east Alberta has hardly any quality trout lakes,and the few we have have been made that way by special restrictions.
100000sq kms of bad trout fishing.
The other fact is that no one wants all trout lakes with special restrictions...just more.
As big HD has said he don't give a s...t about southern Alberta...well really if SRD wants to leave em alone up there leave em alone...I don't give a s....t about up there either.....there HD that honest enough for ya?
I find it highly amusing that HD has such an opinion on lakes he has admitted to not knowing anything about,all we get is for the people....democracy....blah blah
As far as economic impact of doing this to a lake anybody who has fished Bullshead will tell you it is extremely busy and if anything has increased the amount of $$$ going out...so Speck that sorta blows your whole economy theory out of the water.
I agree that people who fish the lakes should speak up...which is why I find it so amusing that two guys from up north are the most vocal about lakes like Police...
At l
Fact is it has worked before and people appreciate it

Yes, I agree with you 100% on that. I've got no business in what you fellas down there, where I don't fish, do with your fisheries and I don't think that you should care what we do with our fisheries up here, where you don't fish, either. It make perfect sense to me.

What I do have a problem with is people down south recruiting people that don't have a dog in the fight to vote on something that, IMO, is none of their business. If the people that fish the waters want something changed to something else then it should be left up to them, not some fly tying club up in Edmonton or anywhere else!

"Quality" fishery fellas gain their strength through solidarity so an executive for Oldman UT asking an executive from a fly tying club up in Edmonton for his members support is the way that business is conducted. I'm sure that if there was a proposal to change a lake to a "quality" fishery in the Edmonton area, the executive from the Edmonton fly tying club would be asking the executive from Oldman UT for his support, and he'd get it....................!

[madatter]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

Im afraid im only familiar with Reesor....we used to camp there lot and catch very nice fish.....is that a candidate for quality fishery?
p.s. on a side note i was always amazed at the amount of trout in the little creek next to Reesor....

Reesor is practically a dead fishery,small trout and lots of suckers,I don't even bother anymore.
Battle Creek does have a lot of small trout,supposed to be bigger downstream in Sask.....wonder how the flooding affected them.
Reesor campground was actually under several feet of water if you imagine,the water from the creek got that high....and it may be as bad this year with everything full and a huge snowpack in Cypress.

[Speckle55]

The figures had been work out into the numbers released by SRD and that is what has been a acceptable number that people are willing to pay for by there taxes.. can it be ajusted .. yes .. like people have said some perch lakes need to have higher limits because of over crowding

[Badback]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

K....badback has also been very kind with the invites

I'll check with the warden what she has planned.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

He is a jerk...fish with me... :-)

Just kidding in case a certain person is watching

LOL...Hey Chubb I caught a fish that was 7 Sundancefishers in length......I don't know yet if we are staying in town this weekend so best that Chubb goes out with you Sundance.

I wish that I had thought of this earlier but we should have invited all the people who posted on this thread out to Lake Sundance on a weekend to fish and discuss this...I believe that it would have had positive results (agreeing or empathy)...

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Badback

LOL...Hey Chubb I caught a fish that was 7 Sundancefishers in length......I don't know yet if we are staying in town this weekend so best that Chubb goes out with you Sundance.

I wish that I had thought of this earlier but we should have invited all the people who posted on this thread out to Lake Sundance on a weekend to fish and discuss this...I believe that it would have had positive results (agreeing or empathy)...

lol ....hhahahahahaha

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Lets see

Reg changes

1. no bait.. you just losted 200 anglers from area that used to come with familys and camp there so they could fish with kids.. = 600 people economic loss ..some still come but net loss

2. no ice fishing.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys that came in winter the brought skidoos/quads on ice only(provincal Park).. 300 people economic loss

3. size limit not all will agree will some will come some won't you just lost 50 anglers and familys ... 150 people economic loss

4.reduced numbers to take home or eat at lake.. you just losted 100 anglers and familys ... 300 people economic loss of they money to area and fishing

5. only big lake in area with good productivity... loss 450 anglers and familys... 1350 people economic loss

.6 in the surrounding area you just losted 900 licenses



Gains? just guessing on improvements of people etc

450 more anglers and familys coming to lake ...1350 people economic gain none even?

More anglers in summer that are there for 16 inch fish and you can only keep 1 and love to catch and release little ones now..?

50 vocal people(some Edmonton never fish lake) made recommendation to SRD local office and Changes made

in most cases a public meetings have to be held in the all communities closest to the change and all clubs notified and posted in local papers for a minimum of two weeks

not done ... hmmmmm how does that work? i have some great ideas

Let me help you with your points
point 1 - Payne lake short drive away - no losses
Point 2 - Payne lake short drive away - no losses
Point 3 - Payne lake short drive away - no losses
Point 4 - Payne lake short drive away - no losses
Point 5 - Payne lake short drive away - no losses
Point 6 - no losses!!!!!!!!

The rest of your post - see my points 1 thru 6! You should be scared if you didnt check to see another large lake nearby!

We'll just call that an oops.

Helps to be familiar with the are eh!

Also known as Mami lake to some