First signs of the RAMP program

[J Biggs]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just passing along what I've learned from speaking to a few landowners and hunters...that's all.

well if this is the case i am glad to read it

if you read back on the topic here looks like a bit of good cop bad cop with you asnd 209x50

pretty obvuios that HE prints stuff here just to ruff feathers

he (209x50 ) prints stuff here ruffs feathers then you come in back up his statments with what you gather


remember percepton is reality


i am sure you can gather what the percepton is here

LOL...no good cop bad cop...just hated seeing 209 called a liar when he wasn't that's all. I have no idea regarding his reason for the post he put up and truly don't care. I can see the perception you talk about though and thanks for the opportunity to clear it up.

[wbl170]

Relatively new on this forum. Enjoy the format and interaction with sportsman,both young and old,new and experienced. Not that familiar with the Ramp program. But when i first heard about it, i certianly started asking questions? The Afga members i know certainly didn't vote for it! Going waaay down south for antelope this Oct. and will definitly talk with the ranchers down there. Finding the chat on this forum somewhat interesting but not too productive. It sounds to me like the start of paid hunting! Once they get their foot in the door...........? We should be concerned as hunters!

Sheep I'm at my end with some of this but I'm trying so to you and your buddy, I'm totally opposed to any paid hunting scheme, the past has taught us this will only grow and get worse we should yell and scream as much as we can.

But you want the facts before you fight it. Two and a half years of facts, that some feel you were privy to but yet ignored have been out there by concerned hunters but now after it is implemented you're trying to "Fight this thing". You can see why your comments are falling on deaf ears and are being challenged at every angle.

So as I was driving to my current locale I happened to see your latest article so to induce clarity and get the facts straight there are two that need attention.

First you better get the right info on the funding, even though it is all tax dollars. LUF is not in full swing so I'm not sure how it could have come from that. Mortin told us that he was going to swing it from his own budget in SRD something about stealing some of the funds from the cadillac fire fighting budget he had (five years from now we'll be hearing how there isn't enough to help fight fires because it will all be gone). But then at the summer meetings we were told that it had to wait for budget approval from caucaus which would suggest he couldn't do that either. Regardless it is our tax dollars subsidizing this.

Second and what I'm fearing most going forward is that it was not a U of A task to come up with this scheme it was U of C. Cormack Gates and Mortin's own close friend Rainier Knopff who came up with the process and the guts of the plan. Knopff and Mortin's connections go a long way back and to have those guys say this is a made in Alberta plan is absolutely absurd. None of them have the history in this province to even begin to state that yet here they are plowing us ahead into the 21st century and paid hunting. Along with that comes the added bonus that it will again be these guys who will *****s the program on a yearly basis. What a bunch of crap how do we all think that will turn out.

My suggestion is that you quit clouding your posts with talk of conspiracy theories and vendictive agendas and do as you preach and stick to the facts. My fear is that now after 2 and a half years you still don't have them right and now you would rather call a bunch of concerned sportsmen that do have the facts straight a fringe group when they could probably help you get it right.

And to quote chuck:

"I just got off the phone with Grant Chapman, director of RAMP. He has told me that this program is not in place yet. There is absolutely no public list available, and landowners are currently supposed to be managing land as they have in the past. NOONE has used the new RAMP program to access property."

So you can see why it would be nice to get some clarity on this situation that you are so quick to defend considering it now seems that there is a good deal of favourtism going on.

Sheep I'm at my end with some of this but I'm trying so to you and your buddy, I'm totally opposed to any paid hunting scheme, the past has taught us this will only grow and get worse we should yell and scream as much as we can.

But you want the facts before you fight it.

LOL..where did you get that nonsense from? I want more facts so I can continue fighting it in an informed manner.

My suggestion is that you quit clouding your posts with talk of conspiracy theories and vendictive agendas and do as you preach and stick to the facts. My fear is that now after 2 and a half years you still don't have them right and now you would rather call a bunch of concerned sportsmen that do have the facts straight a fringe group when they could probably help you get it right.

LOL...I'd love to but a certain element on here seems to love to turn this personal every time it comes up...something I try to avoid. Thankfully there are loads of good guys fighting this dog's breakfast as well. I'll keep presenting the facts as I know them and I'm sure the peanut gallery will keep chiming in. Some things in life are predictable. As for having the facts right, I'm pretty sure I do. I've spent a lot of time gathering them.

And to quote chuck:

"I just got off the phone with Grant Chapman, director of RAMP. He has told me that this program is not in place yet. There is absolutely no public list available, and landowners are currently supposed to be managing land as they have in the past. NOONE has used the new RAMP program to access property."

So you can see why it would be nice to get some clarity on this situation that you are so quick to defend considering it now seems that there is a good deal of favourtism going on.

I have no doubt that Chuck's facts are solid but I have no doubt that the additional info I added regarding some landowners taking matters into their own hands is correct too. It explains a lot. I don't know there is any favouritism going on...some guys just happen to come across the landowners that were anxious to get going.

At some point it's a good idea to quit looking for zebras everytime you see a herd of horses. Sometimes horses are just horses. Some people's constant forrays off into conspiracy land do more to cloud the real issue than any thing else does. RAMP is bad enough on its own...why keep working to create a bunch of conspiracies to attach to it? I have to wonder at what the agenda of some of the so called crusaders against RAMP really is as some seem to spend all their time deflecting attention from the real problem. It makes me very suspicious. Would you agree that RAMP itself is what we should focus on and not keeping inventing conspiracies that usually have no basis in fact? That's why info is powerful and for some reason that I've yet to put my fingure on, some on here are afraid of that info being desseminated. I'd hate to start more conspiracies but if I did, it would seem to me that some are trying to protect their own interests by constantly taking the focus off the facts surrounding RAMP. But I won't go there.

Of the 125 posts on here, it seems a dozen or so are actually about RAMP. The vast majority are accusations against 209 and me and us answering those accusations...is that really a productive use of an important thread or is it yet another monumental deflection and derail? Truely, what does it matter what 209 or I think? If the facts are getting out there, that's what's important. But for some reason, a certain element on this board is doing everything in their power to take the focus off those facts.

[muleskinner]

The one thing that is fact is that paid hunting is coming to Alberta!It's time for all hunters in Alberta to quit bickering and present a united front.Anything else is just a waste of time.

[J Biggs]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

At some point it's a good idea to quit looking for zebras everytime you see a herd of horses. Sometimes horses are just horses. Some people's constant forrays off into conspiracy land do more to cloud the real issue than any thing else does. RAMP is bad enough on its own...why keep working to create a bunch of conspiracies to attach to it? I have to wonder at what the agenda of some of the so called crusaders against RAMP really is as some seem to spend all their time deflecting attention from the real problem. It makes me very suspicious. Would you agree that RAMP itself is what we should focus on and not keeping inventing conspiracies that usually have no basis in fact? That's why info is powerful and for some reason that I've yet to put my fingure on, some on here are afraid of that info being desseminated. I'd hate to start more conspiracies but if I did, it would seem to me that some are trying to protect their own interests by constantly taking the focus off the facts surrounding RAMP. But I won't go there.

Of the 125 posts on here, it seems a dozen or so are actually about RAMP. The vast majority are accusations against 209 and me and us answering those accusations...is that really a productive use of an important thread or is it yet another monumental deflection and derail? Truely, what does it matter what 209 or I think? If the facts are getting out there, that's what's important. But for some reason, a certain element on this board is doing everything in their power to take the focus off those facts.

well it a no brainer why mr 209 was asked these question so how bout you stick to the fact rather than callin the poeple who are worried about this , gone to meetings , wrote leters , etc , conspriscy therists

but as you keep saying many here should move past this yet you are the guy that likes to keep bringng it up

i know the fact about ramp as you keep beeting this drum so agian i am curius why you dont just stick to fact and drop the hole conspriscy thoery as this is your opinoin

i read all your article and you certanly arent the guy that brougt this to public atention

[wbl170]

I agree with Muleskinner. A united voice carries alot more weight !! lets secure the facts and move forward.

i know the fact about ramp as you keep beeting this drum so agian i am curius why you dont just stick to fact and drop the hole conspriscy thoery as this is your opinoin

Because all these conspiracy theories totally take the focus off RAMP and if we don't focus on the FACTS surrounding RAMP, there isn't much hope we'll ever see the end of it. I for one think there is enough flawed with the RAMP process to cause its demise but if we fail to focus on those faults and keep looking for zebras, we'll forget that this began as horses. There are countless examples of this in history....perhaps we should learn from those? Conspiracy theorists are thought of as nuts by the majority of the general public, at least in Canada. Do we want people shrouded in that perception presenting our case against RAMP or do we want a strong unified and informed voice the shows the folly of the facts?

I truly believe that some people just love to believe conspiracies and hence their reason for jumping on the bandwagon but I can't help but think that there is another more subversive group that keeps these conspiracy theories going in order to take the focus off RAMP and discredit those that are working hard to fight RAMP. But then again, I guess that's a conspiracy theory isn't it?

Regardless, these constant deflections from the facts do nothing to fight RAMP and make hunters look like nothing more than a bunch of uneducated, disorganized individuals that enjoying feeding more on their own than they do facing real issues.

It's funny, I haven't named a single person in these last few posts and I won't as it would serve no purpose but there are a few getting very defensive. I think there's an old adage about if the shoe fits?

There has been a good flow of facts from this thread:

1) The government says RAMP is not in place yet and won't be until Oct 1.
2) Some landowners are taking matters into their own hands and starting early.
3) Some hunters and posters on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start.
4) Some landowners are upset about the late start and the lack of consultation.


Remind me again what the other 124 posts were about?

i read all your article and you certanly arent the guy that brougt this to public atention

Never claimed to have but I have written several to try and keep it in the public eye and to bring new facts to the table when I can. It has been covered by many of AO's excellent writers. Glad to see you are a loyal reader of the magazine....seems many on here aren't. AO magazine and forum have definitely been the major source of info for hunters and Rob definitely deserves credit for that as do many of the posters here.

higher and deeper

[Waxy]

Time to get out the hip waders...

I don't even know what the word for it is at this point.

Waxy

[Pathfinder76]

When words fail to come.

[Jamie]

Bubba, perhaps I missed it.

Wy didnt you bring into question the first poster when he said 12 people accesed land through the RAMP program?


Jamie

[Jamie]

Chuck, Waxy and Sniper.

Seems like you guys are bringing a bunch of disrespect into this conversation. Especially in regards to the ALBERTA OUTDOORSMEN MAGAZINE.

If you have a problem with the publication, why not bring it up?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Chuck, Waxy and Sniper.

Seems like you guys are bringing a bunch of disrespect into this conversation. Especially in regards to the ALBERTA OUTDOORSMEN MAGAZINE.

If you have a problem with the publication, why not bring it up?

Excuse me! Where did I bring that publication up in this thread?

Originally Posted by Jamie

Bubba, perhaps I missed it.

Wy didnt you bring into question the first poster when he said 12 people accesed land through the RAMP program?


Jamie

Yes you missed it.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showp...1&postcount=62

Apology accepted.

Bubba

[Jamie]

Bubba. I was refering to this post

"Sheesh, I don't know why this isn't going to work. It is such a well thought out and organized program.

This is only the beginning of the freak show. Once this fails, as it surely will, watch for HFH to rear its ugly head again.

Sure glad I 999'd my 300 elk.

Bubba "

Thanks
Jamie

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by chuck

Excuse me! Where did I bring that publication up in this thread?

Chuck, please note I said 'Seems to Me"

Then go ahaead and read from post 130 on down.

basicly Sheep congratulated A/O on keeping up with the whole issue of Ramp

You (Among the others) had nothing but sour remarks to make afterwards.

Just not sure who you are being sour towards is all.

Thanks
Jamie

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not stirring the pot but getting the facts out....at least that been my only interst since day one. Some on here figure the best way to fight RAMP is by shouting, screaming, inventing conspiracies, vendictive actions and name calling. Others figure being well informed is the best tact. I tend to agree with the latter group. Information is a powerful tool. If we are going to beat this thing...it seems to me we should understand it.

This is the way I see it.
Ramp is here, whether it started two weeks ago or next week. The facts have been either hard to find, non existent, or continously being revised from its inception. I wish I had the time to sit at Mortons door and become the "Ramp Fact Finder" but I dont. Probably nobody does. I dont know all the facts but that doesnt keep me from hating this program as it treads closely, if not directly, on paid access/hunting.

All of your fact finding is appreciated but has done little to change the outcome. I agree that fighting facts is better than fighting the bu!!$h!t but thats what this program is when it comes to SRD's ability to communicate it to the people they say it will benefit.

People listen to you because they know who you are. People dont care who I am. Other than being a fact finder, what else can a guy do to eliminate this program? What more are you prepared to do?

All in all, the facts haven't been provided, what has been, has been dictated, and Ramp is here.

I think time has come for some of your "shouting and screaming". Not on this board but into Ted Mortons ear. Anyone have his number handy? What is the best time to call?

Other than being a fact finder, what else can a guy do to eliminate this program? What more are you prepared to do?

All in all, the facts haven't been provided, what has been, has been dictated, and Ramp is here.

That is the millon dollar question for sure. The most important thing a person/group can do is keep pressure on the politicians and constantly keep pointing out the folly by using the facts and more importantly, offer a workable solution. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.....sad but true. Hunters have won some big battles in this province and they've lost some too but we always need to be in the fight. One thing I know for sure is that we've never won a battle by fighting amoung ourselves.

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Ramp is here.

I think time has come for some of your "shouting and screaming". Not on this board but into Ted Mortons ear. Anyone have his number handy? What is the best time to call?

Deer Hunter,
RAMP is what is left of the original Open Spaces. There were several people "shouting and screaming" when Open spaces first came out. There were several meetings all over southern Ab. that many different interest groups attended. A very, very high percentage of these groups were against Open spaces , so a portion of it was dropped. With a little more "shouting and screaming" maybe RAMP can go the way HFH (this is the portion of open spaces that was "shelved")

Originally Posted by Jamie

Bubba. I was refering to this post

"Sheesh, I don't know why this isn't going to work. It is such a well thought out and organized program.

This is only the beginning of the freak show. Once this fails, as it surely will, watch for HFH to rear its ugly head again.

Sure glad I 999'd my 300 elk.

Bubba "

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie,

At the time of the first post I assumed that RAMP would have started with the start of hunting season. When this post came up I checked to see if there was any new information or a website available. Not finding any information available I emailed the RAMP coordinator to ask questions. This is when I found out that RAMP had not even been implemented yet. This is why I "politely" questioned 209 for more information because as Sheephunter says the more information we have the better we are able to fight this. I guess 209 and yoursefl took offense to being asked to substantiate his claims and as I stated before 209 took his ball and went home.

By the way you might want to rethink your tag line.

"We only speak for 97/100"

Wrote by Mav, in regards to the support the ARHJ feels it has.

This number has absolutely nothing to do with ARHJ. It is as a direct result of the vote at the AFGA vote in Edmonton this year. I would like to at least hope you support AFGA. Or were you one of the 7?

Bubba

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Chuck, please note I said 'Seems to Me"

Then go ahaead and read from post 130 on down.

basicly Sheep congratulated A/O on keeping up with the whole issue of Ramp

You (Among the others) had nothing but sour remarks to make afterwards.

Just not sure who you are being sour towards is all.

Thanks
Jamie

Your "seems to me" is very specifically pointed and your comments are an assumption and uncalled for. Especially when they have no basis in fact and are directed my way by name. "Disrespect" is now apparently a two way street.

I have no idea how "Sheep's" congratulatory remarks have anything to do with me "bringing a bunch of disrespect into this conversation. Especially in regards to the ALBERTA OUTDOORSMEN MAGAZINE."?

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There has been a good flow of facts from this thread:

1) The government says RAMP is not in place yet and won't be until Oct 1.
2) Some landowners are taking matters into their own hands and starting early.
3) Some hunters and posters on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start.
4) Some landowners are upset about the late start and the lack of consultation.


Remind me again what the other 124 posts were about?

Fact

1) The Government says RAMP is not in place yet and won't be until Oct 1. TRUE
2) Some landowners are taking matters into their own hands and starting early. Possible-Have not seen any proof of this as of yet, just the ramblings of a few lost sole's...
3) Some hunters and poster on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start. Not true- where did a "hunter or poster" write that "they" were hunting under the assumption that it was RAMP land??? The only posts were made by people who talked to a guy who knew a guy who knew the other guys uncles, cousins sisters doctor, etc...
4) Some landowners are upset about the late start and lack of consultation. True- To use a quote from a popular 90's movie..."show me the money" is the reason for this...
5) Yes Bubba, I think we all know who one of "the 7" was that voted for RAMP...
6) Some on this board sure seem to know alot about RAMP...even though they were not at any of the "public meetings". TRUE
7) Me thinks there are a few "wolves" on this site that are dressed in "Sheep's" clothing...TRUE

3) Some hunters and poster on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start. Not true- where did a "hunter or poster" write that "they" were hunting under the assumption that it was RAMP land??? The only posts were made by people who talked to a guy who knew a guy who knew the other guys uncles, cousins sisters doctor, etc...

Ummm, the Original Poster but not hard to see how you might have forgotten that, considering the length of this thread. You are forgiven.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ummm, the Original Poster but not hard to see how you might have forgotten that, considering the length of this thread. You are forgiven.

Ummm, no he wasn't.

Okay, first hand he saw some hunters that he mistakenly thought were hunting uder RAMP....

He didn't talk

to a guy who knew a guy who knew the other guys uncles, cousins sisters doctor, etc...

He saw it first hand and was under the impression that they were hunting under RAMP. I stand corrected. I know you are a stickler for details.

BTW.....your little Star Trek picture made me laugh...good one.

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ummm, the Original Poster but not hard to see how you might have forgotten that, considering the length of this thread. You are forgiven.

You must have a great editor that you work with because you sure cannot read very well...some examples of this are as follows.

"Well today was opening day for elk in the wmu I hunt. I have been watching a heard of elk (9 cows and an average of 4 bulls) Some nights there were 6 or 7 bulls and some nights only one. The land owner is participating in the RAMP program pilot project. Whoever is in charge of this program determined that his land could support a maximum of 12 hunters per day. Well I dont have the early season elk tag but it was sure fun to go out and watch 12 guys with tags not to mention those that were along for the hunt try and get in on this small herd of elk. I wonder if some landowners could care less if every elk or deer is shot so long as they make some money with the more people they let access the land. Maybe this is a good thing. Not one of those elk were killed because it didnt take long for the herd to realize what was going on with about 15 people closing in on them from all sides. All the tacticts and ethics of hunting were thrown out the window to try and get the first shot and as a result no one got a shot. I wonder if there were any first time elk hunters out there today. Im sure the ramp program has some positives and I hope to see them soon. "


"I spoke with the landowner back in august to secure permission for this comming hunting season. He told me he would be participating in the ramp program this year. I stopped and talked to him again a couple days after opening morning for a few minutes to see if anyone had taken any elk. His response was "what a joke". We didnt have time to talk about it as he was busy farming."
So as you can see now that i have highlighted it for you, not once did 3) Some hunters and poster on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start" say that "they" were "hunting" under the RAMP program.

The original poster said he was out there but he does not say that he was "hunting" or that he knew for sure that the land had been secured for RAMP...it was an assuption based on a talk with the landowner in August with the landowner stating that he would be in the RAMP program in the fall, he was not in the program at that time and its safe to say that he is not "in" the program yet.

Based on your last post and many previous posts I can see how well you research your "FACTS" and that is the reason that people on this site are calling you on it...

Please see above!

The original poster said he was out there but he does not say that he was "hunting" or that he knew for sure that the land had been secured for RAMP...

Considering the title of the thread...I think it's safe to assume that the poster thought, as many of us did, that RAMP was already underway but again, you are forgiven. I am curious though if the landowner didn't have time to talk, how the OP found out how many hunters were permitted on the property under RAMP. Curious that the number of hunters on the property was exactly the same number as was determined under RAMP. Not sure why I thought the OP thought the land was already operating under RAMP.... Not blaming the OP as it seems many thought RAMP was already underway, including some hunters that have contacted me and a buddy of 209's.

Some hunters and poster on here mistakenly thought they were already hunting under RAMP because of the landowners early start.

Or if it will save some bandwidth and help get this thread back on track, take the words "poster on here" out of my statement, tell the world I was wrong and need a great editor and let's get back to talking about RAMP and not the symantics of the English language.