Immunisations, In Specific Polio

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Sigh, yes it is. I am still waiting for a response to my post asking about the scientists who were caught tampering with climate data.

There is no evidence that proves all scientists are engaged in their research for the betterment of humanity. Until that is the case, I will choose what I believe. Thankfully I still have that option, much to the dismay of some folks around here.

You're waiting because this thread is explicitly about vaccines. If you'd like to discuss climate science, start a thread on that. Otherwise it comes across as an obvious atempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand.

And you're willfully (I hope willfully, anyway) misunderstanding how science actually works. The role of science is simply to answer questions.

The motivations of individual scientists are largely irrelevant if they are doing diligent work. A team of evil supervillians can come up with a correct answer - and their diabolical motivations don't make it any less correct.

Your assertion, in this case, is that tens of thousands of individuals over a span of some 170 years, in various parts of the world for doxens of competing institutions and companies have all been coming up with the wrong answer, despite thousands of studies, government and independent monitoring programs suggesting they have it right.

The argument for mandatory vaccination is, simply, that as a member of a society you have responsibilities, in addition to rights. By refusing vaccinations, you're willfully endangering those around you - shirking a public responsibility.

As a hypothetical: if a man believes that sprinking anthrax on the street is not dangerous, does his right to believe that trump his responsibility to not endanger those around him?

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Until that is the case, I will choose what I believe. Thankfully I still have that option, much to the dismay of some folks around here.

There's a shot for that too. We can arrange it if you like?

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by SlimChance

As a hypothetical: if a man believes that sprinking anthrax on the street is not dangerous, does his right to believe that trump his responsibility to not endanger those around him?

Now using that as a comparison is ridiculous. Why don't we just take it a step further and have everyone walk around in a plastic bubble? You know, protecting humans from every single eventuality is impossible, but in the grand scheme of things, nobody has the authority to determine what gets injected into my blood-stream based on the extremely tiny, remote possibility I am going to pass along a virus to a person who is incapable of protecting themselves. Here is an idea... If you have such a weak immune system that you are unable to get yourself immunized of your own accord, how about you protect yourself and adjust your own lifestyle rather than forcing the rest of the world to inject things into their bodies so you can live how you want to, and if you can be immunized and choose to do so, then don't worry that someone else is taking their own risk by choosing not to.

Just because I am willing to be immunized does not give me the right to force others to do so...

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by tirebob

...based on the extremely tiny, remote possibility I am going to pass along a virus to a person who is incapable of protecting themselves.

And why do you you that is the case in today's world? Yes, because most people get immunized.

[SlightlyDistracting]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Now using that as a comparison is ridiculous. Why don't we just take it a step further and have everyone walk around in a plastic bubble? You know, protecting humans from every single eventuality is impossible, but in the grand scheme of things, nobody has the authority to determine what gets injected into my blood-stream based on the extremely tiny, remote possibility I am going to pass along a virus to a person who is incapable of protecting themselves. Here is an idea... If you have such a weak immune system that you are unable to get yourself immunized of your own accord, how about you protect yourself and adjust your own lifestyle rather than forcing the rest of the world to inject things into their bodies so you can live how you want to, and if you can be immunized and choose to do so, then don't worry that someone else is taking their own risk by choosing not to.

Just because I am willing to be immunized does not give me the right to force others to do so...

Very well said. Anybody who forces me to put anything into my body I am going to have a problem with. Let the minions roll up their sleeves. If your right youll be protected. I myself prefer to live an active healthy lifestyle and maintain a healthy immune system.

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by SlightlyDistracting

Very well said. If your right youll be protected. I myself prefer to live an active healthy lifestyle and maintain a healthy immune system.

Against Polio? You want to be the Guinea Pig? Ya right, good luck buddy!

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by Weedy1

And why do you you that is the case in today's world?

How many "healthy" people die in North America from diseases that they themselves have been inoculated for of their own choice that they caught from people that were not inoculated? The fact is humans die constantly from things that were possibly (and completely) unnecessary, but the fact is as humans we have rights over our own bodies and that comes with the turf. You are just choosing this specific thing as your moral ground while others do not...

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by tirebob

How many "healthy" people die in North America from diseases that they themselves have been inoculated for of their own choice that they caught from people that were not inoculated? The fact is humans die constantly from things that were possibly (and completely) unnecessary, but the fact is as humans we have rights over our own bodies and that comes with the turf. You are just choosing this specific thing as your moral ground while others do not...

So if there was another massive Polio outbreak would you prefer not to be immunized? I doubt it. Easy to be the tough guy that can fend off any attack to their immune system on the internet but when it comes right down to it I highly doubt you'd be playing with your life if the odds were in your favor if you were immunized.

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by Weedy1

So if there was another massive Polio outbreak would you prefer not to be immunized? I doubt it. Easy to be the tough guy that can fend off any attack to their immune system on the internet but when it comes right down to it I highly doubt you'd be playing with your life if the odds were in your favor if you were immunized.

I am not saying I would not... I am saying it is my choice to make for myself... Not yours to make for me.

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by tirebob

I am not saying I would not... I am saying it is my choice to make for myself... Not yours to make for me.

Well let's just hope under those circumstances we as society have the right to send the people who choose not to protect themselves and others during a massive epidemic to a secluded island, preferably a very large cold one in the Antarctic.

Do you think it is your right to determine whether or not your children are immunized? If you chose not to immunize them should I have the right to prevent your children from attending my child's school, events, playground,and so forth?

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by Weedy1

Well let's just hope under those circumstances we as society have the right to send the people who choose not to protect themselves and others during a massive epidemic to a secluded island, preferably a very large cold one in the Antarctic.

Do you think it is your right to determine whether or not your children are immunized? If you chose not to immunize them should I have the right to prevent your children from attending my child's school, events, playground,and so forth?

Yes I do believe it is my right. It definitely is not right of anyone else over me.

As for their right to go to school with kids who are already immunized against polio? I guess I think that if you are all immunized I don't know really why you are worried about the kid who is not immunized, but that said, I would personally be keeping my own kid home by my own choice if polio was going around.

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by tirebob

I am not saying I would not... I am saying it is my choice to make for myself... Not yours to make for me.

Mandatory vaccinations are coming for school children more likely than not and I'm glad that's the way it's going. Now you'll be free to choose not to vaccinate but then you will not be allowed to enter the school system. I'm glad they are going this way because this thread is a prime example off how some people need to be saved from themselves. Especially children who rely on their parents to protect them by making educated choices that affect their well being.

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Yes I do believe it is my right. It definitely is not right of anyone else over me.

As for their right to go to school with kids who are already immunized against polio? I guess I think that if you are all immunized I don't know really why you are worried about the kid who is not immunized, but that said, I would personally be keeping my own kid home by my own choice if polio was going around.

The reason its a concern is because some children born with compromised immune system can not be vaccinated and rely on herd immunity which isnt possible with people making foolish choices. Also infants are at high risk as well because they can't be vaccinated immediately after being born.

Edit
Oh it's also possible to catch a disease you've been vaccinated against if you are exposed to it enough and the immune system is already taxed say from having the flu.

Seriously do some reading on how a vaccination works and why herd immunity is important. Your lack of education and understanding of the subject at hand is readily apparent.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Now using that as a comparison is ridiculous. Why don't we just take it a step further and have everyone walk around in a plastic bubble? You know, protecting humans from every single eventuality is impossible, but in the grand scheme of things, nobody has the authority to determine what gets injected into my blood-stream based on the extremely tiny, remote possibility I am going to pass along a virus to a person who is incapable of protecting themselves. Here is an idea... If you have such a weak immune system that you are unable to get yourself immunized of your own accord, how about you protect yourself and adjust your own lifestyle rather than forcing the rest of the world to inject things into their bodies so you can live how you want to, and if you can be immunized and choose to do so, then don't worry that someone else is taking their own risk by choosing not to.

Just because I am willing to be immunized does not give me the right to force others to do so...

You're imagining a world comprised only of healthy adults.

My kid is booked for his first MMR shot at the end of the year (scheduled at 12 months). This may come as a shock, but we have had to take him out in public prior to the full completion of his immunizations.

I will let him know that an anti-vaxxer's right to refuse immunization trumps his right to do, well, anything.

If you're reasonably likely to come into contact with other people, I think you have a responsibility to them to not be a vector for disease.

We don't have the right to force a needle into someone's arm. We do have the right to exclude them from participating in public if they willfully present a danger to others (this is the concept our entire justice system is based on).

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

The reason its a concern is because some children born with compromised immune system can not bee vaccinated and rely on herd immunity which isnt possible with people making foolish choices. Also infants are at high risk as well because they can't be vaccinated immediately after being born.

Ok, so are you saying that we should protect a miniscule portion of the population by forcing the miniscule portion of the population that may have an adverse reaction to vaccines to get vaccinated?

[Weedy1]

Originally Posted by tirebob

I guess I think that if you are all immunized I don't know really why you are worried about the kid who is not immunized..

How about vaccine-derived polio? Similar to what is happening in countries like Syria right now. (Yes, believe it or not some people do care about other people's children.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7817251.html

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

Mandatory vaccinations are coming for school children more likely than not and I'm glad that's the way it's going. Now you'll be free to choose not to vaccinate but then you will not be allowed to enter the school system. I'm glad they are going this way because this thread is a prime example off how some people need to be saved from themselves. Especially children who rely on their parents to protect them by making educated choices that affect their well being.

Yes that is good. You know, we should start taking all children away and let the government raise them completely. In plastic bubbles. Parents should be seen only as sources of tax income and commodities that reproduce to make more sources of government income.

Let's also realize that the public school system is the best, and the only way to go to fit the model I described above.

Do you know why we are in North America? Because hundreds of years ago some people cherished individual freedoms and freedom from government tyranny. This thread is throwing that all away.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Weedy1

How about vaccine-derived polio? Similar to what is happening in countries like Syria right now. (Yes, believe it or not some people do care about other people's children.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7817251.html

So how did this outbreak start?

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by Newview01

So how did this outbreak start?

Long story short. Under vaccinated population and poor sanitation. If you are interested this explains how it happens in detail.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Yes that is good. You know, we should start taking all children away and let the government raise them completely. In plastic bubbles. Parents should be seen only as sources of tax income and commodities that reproduce to make more sources of government income.

Let's also realize that the public school system is the best, and the only way to go to fit the model I described above.

Do you know why we are in North America? Because hundreds of years ago some people cherished individual freedoms and freedom from government tyranny. This thread is throwing that all away.

What a completely accurate comparison.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

What a completely accurate comparison.

You missed the point. See my signature. There are far too many people willing to give up other people's freedoms for their own security.

Vaccinations (mandatory) is a prime example of that.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

Long story short. Under vaccinated population and poor sanitation. If you are interested this explains how it happens in detail.

http://www.who.int/features/qa/64/en/

Ok but correct me if I am wrong, it was a mutated version from a vaccine that started the outbreak?

[TylerThomson]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Ok but correct me if I am wrong, it was a mutated version from a vaccine that started the outbreak?

Did you read the article? Do you understand how vaccines work. If you did you wouldn't be asking these questions.

[silverdoctor]

My generation is likely the last of the true "herd immunity". This vaccine protocol herd immunity isn't working properly and the FDA proved it. I'm tired of the antivax crowd being blamed. There are so many outbreaks among the vaxxed, caused by the vaccinated, protocol is breaking.

For those that claim that not vaccinating children is abuse, then my mother should have been thrown in jail I guess. She brought us to the chicken pox parties, got us measles, mumps and all the other childhood diseases. What a cow eh? But yet, I can't thank her enough for it - she made me immune to the typical childhood diseases - and parents back in the 70's weren't afraid of these diseases like parents are today, they knew how to treat it as well. She put up with the weeks of being a nurse to her children through all these diseases - thank you Mom. Many times I've taken care of friends kids that were sick with these diseases while the vaxxed parents were heading for the door.

With vaccinations, you are not 100% immune. Yes, you can still get infected - probably a mild case - but realize that if you get infected with chicken pox or measles, then you are still contagious and you can still transmit it. How is that a solid herd immunity? How is that protecting the weak? You've been vaccinated from pertussis, you get a mild cough and likely won't think about it - but you are contagious. How many babies are dying because of this cocooning protocol?

[Sundancefisher]

For you and others... I noted you fought hard on other topics and lost. Now you have a new bone to chew on for this topic. I am positive your concerns are also unfounded and found in the annals of internet fear forums.

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

My generation is likely the last of the true "herd immunity". This vaccine protocol herd immunity isn't working properly and the FDA proved it. I'm tired of the antivax crowd being blamed. There are so many outbreaks among the vaxxed, caused by the vaccinated, protocol is breaking.

For those that claim that not vaccinating children is abuse, then my mother should have been thrown in jail I guess. She brought us to the chicken pox parties, got us measles, mumps and all the other childhood diseases. What a cow eh? But yet, I can't thank her enough for it - she made me immune to the typical childhood diseases - and parents back in the 70's weren't afraid of these diseases like parents are today, they knew how to treat it as well. She put up with the weeks of being a nurse to her children through all these diseases - thank you Mom. Many times I've taken care of friends kids that were sick with these diseases while the vaxxed parents were heading for the door.

With vaccinations, you are not 100% immune. Yes, you can still get infected - probably a mild case - but realize that if you get infected with chicken pox or measles, then you are still contagious and you can still transmit it. How is that a solid herd immunity? How is that protecting the weak? You've been vaccinated from pertussis, you get a mild cough and likely won't think about it - but you are contagious. How many babies are dying because of this cocooning protocol?

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You say vaxxed like people say people get shot or stabbed. You realize every scientific study says vaccines are safe and save millions of lives. That the minuscule risk is far over shadowed by the massive benefits.

I posted the study. You can read it.

I am always in favour of continued research. However right now vaccines have been tested and proved safe.

http://www.publichealth.org/public-a.../goes-vaccine/

The aluminum amount is so minute that after vaccination there is no increase in natural background levels.

Amount in vaccines? The amount of aluminum in vaccines is tiny. In fact, babies always have a small naturally occurring amount of aluminum in their bloodstreams, about 5 nanograms. The quantity of aluminum in a vaccine is so small it doesn’t cause any noticeable raise in this base amount found in the blood, even immediately after an injection.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Sorry. You appeared to finally acknowledge there is no mercury in kids vaccines so your fears were alleviated.



You acknowledged the lack of mercury in the previous post then quickly jumped on something else to complain about in vaccines.

If you still refuse to acknowledge that fact then sadly...you are lost.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

As you were complaining about kids getting autism from mercury I showed you all kids vaccines don't have it. While some flu vaccines have methymercury...you can request without.

So there is no reason to refuse the benefits of vaccines over mercury. Thanks for confirming.

As for aluminum...I know there is such a tiny amount and proved safe that I don't worry about it. I do however watch how much other aluminum exposure I have.

Again...data and science shows it is safe.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Pardon my fast iPad typing. You are correct and everyone should know methylmercury is found in consumed fish. Ethylmercury is what is found in vaccinations and that you are no longer using that as a reason to not vaccinate.

https://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodva.../ucm284520.htm

The FDA study found that the maximum amount of aluminum an infant could be exposed to over the first year of life would be 4.225 milligrams (mg), based on the recommended schedule of vaccines. Federal Regulations for biological products (including vaccines) limit the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg. For example, the amount of aluminum in the hepatitis B vaccine given at birth is 0.25 mg.

The safe level for aluminum in vaccinations is 4.225 mg/year.

Infants only get Less than the approved safe level. Children...way below their max. Science recently revisited and updated exposure limits.

Additional reasons why you are off base in vaccinations and aluminum.

http://www.immunizebc.ca/facts-on-im...vaccine-safety

Aluminum – Aluminum has been present in vaccines for over 70 years with no reported serious adverse reactions. Aluminum salts are added to vaccines to help them work faster, better and longer. Because we add aluminum to vaccines, significantly fewer antigens (pieces of the germ that the immune system recognizes) are needed to produce a good immune response. As a result, there are fewer side effects from the vaccine. We are constantly in contact with aluminum. It is the most abundant element in the earth's crust and is found in air, food and water. Aluminum is present in the infant's body from birth, and in breast milk and in infant formula. For example, in the first 6 months of life, infants are exposed to approximately 4mg of aluminum in vaccines. In this same time period, they are exposed to approximately 10mg of aluminum in breast milk, 40mg in infant formula, and 120mg in soy formula.

Although aluminum from food is absorbed into the blood much less easily than aluminum from vaccines, aluminum from any source is rapidly removed from the body. Aluminum is picked up in the blood and taken to the kidneys quickly - about half of aluminum in food or in vaccines is eliminated from the body by the kidneys in less than 24hrs, more than three-quarters is eliminated within two weeks and virtually all is eliminated within three years.

In order for aluminum to be harmful, three things have to happen. First, the kidneys must not be working well, or at all, and second, the amount of aluminum entering the body must be very large (hundreds or thousands of times larger than vaccines) and third, it must be constantly given over long periods of time (months or years) so that the body does not have a chance to clear it.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Thanks


I read the conclusions of the study you presented.

Those injections may produce localized reactions without systemic impact.

So no systemic impact. No impact on the body. So at the concentrations expected...no impact on the body...and this took into account other aluminum inputs such as diet and medications.

Great news. Should make you feel much better.

Next concern?

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So is Warfarin.

Back to aluminum.


Tested safe in vaccine dosage.

https://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodva.../ucm284520.htm

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So mercury not a problem in Canada. Great.

So your study and mine says aluminum additive is safe. Great.

You're not concerned now with Canada but rather the rest of the World. Admirable.

Back to fly tying.

I haven't started on your new fears however I may eventually. Just wanted to rehash on your last tactic.

People. Don't fall for these folks that will harm or kill your child. Vaccines are the safest way to protect them.

Sun

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

For you and others... I noted you fought hard on other topics and lost. Now you have a new bone to chew on for this topic. I am positive your concerns are also unfounded and found in the annals of internet fear forums.

I haven't started on your new fears however I may eventually. Just wanted to rehash on your last tactic.

People. Don't fall for these folks that will harm or kill your child. Vaccines are the safest way to protect them.

Sun

You think people are going to stop vaxxing because of a thread on AO? Ridiculous

But please, explain to me how it is that 20% of children will be diagnosed with a developmental disability? I call that disturbing. If the murder rate were 20%, you bet people would be up in arms and looking for a solution.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

With vaccinations, you are not 100% immune. Yes, you can still get infected - probably a mild case - but realize that if you get infected with chicken pox or measles, then you are still contagious and you can still transmit it. How is that a solid herd immunity? How is that protecting the weak? You've been vaccinated from pertussis, you get a mild cough and likely won't think about it - but you are contagious. How many babies are dying because of this cocooning protocol?

I do not feel like getting into an internet argument about vaccines online but if you want to have a legitimate argument, at least know your basics. Nothing about vaccines prevent infections (pathogens entering the body), they prevent disease (pathogen proliferation, cytopathic effects etc.) by allowing the body to make a faster immune response to said pathogen.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by TylerThomson

Did you read the article? Do you understand how vaccines work. If you did you wouldn't be asking these questions.

Yes, and it was a sincere question. It states "Mr Curtis said cases of vaccine-derived polio were very*rare;*in 2016, more than 450 million*children were vaccinated against polio, and there were five cases of paralysis caused by polio that*originated from*a vaccine. He said the threat only existed in under-immunised populations, where the live, weakened virus originally contained in the oral polio vaccine (OPV) can mutate over time and circulate in the environment."

So while under-immunized populations are more at risk (obviously), is the polio outbreak currently happening a result of a mutation from a vaccine that was previously in use?

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Chief16

I do not feel like getting into an internet argument about vaccines online but if you want to have a legitimate argument, at least know your basics. Nothing about vaccines prevent infections (pathogens entering the body), they prevent disease (pathogen proliferation, cytopathic effects etc.) by allowing the body to make a faster immune response to said pathogen.

Which means you are not immune.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Which means you are not immune.

Wait, what? By allowing your body to make an improved immune response to the pathogen vaccinated for and not allowing disease means you are not immune?