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12-26-2011, 07:02 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
I've been telling people this has been coming for years and have spoken with Jim Allen about it, at length, at least two years ago. Welcome aboard. As usual you're a day late and a dollar short but you'll have your ducks in a row just in time to see it a reality. Congratulations. SRD and their inability or complete refusal to think outside the box have been running this issue into a corner for a long time. The tragedy? They won't run out of funding for this one.
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My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!
Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.
One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....
My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast....
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12-26-2011, 07:17 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!
Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.
One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....
My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast....
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You are starting to see why I hate them already.... The only do what is best for certain groups... Alberta resident are not one of them. Hell I dont think our wildlife even ranks in the tops 10....
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12-26-2011, 07:40 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
My own conversations with F&W Bio's last year now seem like LIES!
Last April, I was told that only a couple of WMU's were of concern for a slight under-representation of Mature Rams. These few WMU's and the Willmore were on the radar for consideration to go on Draw. The Willmore was being considered for a sheep draw NOT because of any conservation concern, but because simply due to pressure from some interest groups to reduce the number of Resident hunters there.
One year later, the Promised Data has not been released to the Public, and there is talk of putting the whole Province on Draw....
My opinion of our F&W heads is dropping fast....
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F&W enforcement is pushing this HARD and they have been for some time. Biologists included.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 07:50 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
F&W enforcement is pushing this HARD and they have been for some time. Biologists included.
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Ya and it makes no sence as a draw I garentee if you draw the first legal will get shot as it will be another 10+ years to do it again..... the young ones still die........ period...
That is what will happen. so why put on a draw????? to me it is a keep mre resident out of the mountains to give outfitters les comp.....
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12-26-2011, 08:37 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
Ya and it makes no sence as a draw I garentee if you draw the first legal will get shot as it will be another 10+ years to do it again..... the young ones still die........ period...
That is what will happen. so why put on a draw????? to me it is a keep mre resident out of the mountains to give outfitters les comp.....
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Because it is easy.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:15 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Because it is easy.
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so is no non residents......
Really leaving it as is is the easiest. There is going to be a major uproar if they do what TJ is telling us... I have no respect already for these nimrods as our province is the most mismanaged it has ever been....
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12-26-2011, 09:22 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
so is no non residents......
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If you call dishing out MILLIONS of tax payer dollars easy then yes.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:24 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
so is no non residents......
Really leaving it as is is the easiest. There is going to be a major uproar if they do what TJ is telling us... I have no respect already for these nimrods as our province is the most mismanaged it has ever been....
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What responses have you got so far from people regarding the proposed changes? Any responses about your concerns with outfitters? I'd be interested to hear what some of the groups, SRD, etc have to say about the concerns that you've brought up here...
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12-26-2011, 09:24 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
If you call dishing out MILLIONS of tax payer dollars easy then yes.
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What do you mean chuck??? I am sorry I dont understand..
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12-26-2011, 09:26 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
What do you mean chuck??? I am sorry I dont understand..
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Somebody has to buy back outfitter allocations. And they aint cheap.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:27 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rackmastr
What responses have you got so far from people regarding the proposed changes? Any responses about your concerns with outfitters? I'd be interested to hear what some of the groups, SRD, etc have to say about the concerns that you've brought up here...
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I have not spoke to anybody as of yet..I will post aafter I talk to someone....
Last edited by Justin.C; 12-26-2011 at 09:32 PM.
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12-26-2011, 09:27 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
Really leaving it as is is the easiest.
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Not for enforcement it isn't.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:28 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Somebody has to buy back outfitter allocations. And they aint cheap.
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from what i have herd they are going pretty cheap rite now... I cant remember the $$$ amount sheepguide said his buddy payed for his...
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12-26-2011, 09:30 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Not for enforcement it isn't.
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why is that??? They still have to be out making sure all is good.. They will be out checking on resident deer,elk,and moose hunters too.... I still dont see....
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12-26-2011, 09:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
I have nothing against outfitters... I just see we as Albertans getting stuck on a draw do to a supposably low ram numbers... I dont see why nonresident get cut out first.. What are you talking about what I brought up???
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I meant the concerns with the sheep changes and with the ideas of cancelling or reducing all non-resident tags. I'm curious what the responses have been from people with the concerns that have been brought up here. As you had commented on the non-residents and outfitters in several threads, I just was curious what SRD, groups, etc had responded when challenged or questioned about it.
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12-26-2011, 09:35 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
from what i have herd they are going pretty cheap rite now... I cant remember the $$$ amount sheepguide said his buddy payed for his...
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They are not cheap. It WILL cost Millions to buy them back.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:36 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
why is that??? They still have to be out making sure all is good.. They will be out checking on resident deer,elk,and moose hunters too.... I still dont see....
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Dealing with Rams is one of THE biggest headaches for SRD offices in close proximity to sheep. Putting them on draw the way they want it will decrease that headache 10 fold. At least.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 09:37 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rackmastr
I meant the concerns with the sheep changes and with the ideas of cancelling or reducing all non-resident tags. I'm curious what the responses have been from people with the concerns that have been brought up here. As you had commented on the non-residents and outfitters in several threads, I just was curious what SRD, groups, etc had responded when challenged or questioned about it.
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Rack... You really think anything is going to be done in that manner??? I dont think that will ever change even if we all want it..... I for one just have a real hard time with more stuff getting taken away in Alberta..... I will do what you are doing ..... Getting out of hear... On the bigger and better across the border..
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12-26-2011, 09:38 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Dealing with Rams is one of THE biggest headaches for SRD offices in close proximity to sheep. Putting them on draw the way they want it will decrease that headache 10 fold. At least.
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I did not know that... Why is that??? All i see is extra gas charges....
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12-26-2011, 09:40 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
Rack... You really think anything is going to be done in that manner??? I dont think that will ever change even if we all want it..... I for one just have a real hard time with more stuff getting taken away in Alberta..... I will do what you are doing ..... Getting out of hear... On the bigger and better across the border..
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I have no idea if it will change or not, I just hadnt seen anyone post responses from SRD or groups with the concerns, and I was curious. I'm guilty of not sending any letters as I've had a lot on my plate, so was hoping that someone who seemed to be quite involved had some info to share.
But ya...sheep allocations are not cheap at all. Right now there are 4 advertised at $450,000. Thats an advertised price, but man oh man they hold a TON of value for some areas and zones...
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12-26-2011, 09:42 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southeren AB
Posts: 884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rackmastr
I have no idea if it will change or not, I just hadnt seen anyone post responses from SRD or groups with the concerns, and I was curious. I'm guilty of not sending any letters as I've had a lot on my plate, so was hoping that someone who seemed to be quite involved had some info to share.
But ya...sheep allocations are not cheap at all. Right now there are 4 advertised at $450,000. Thats an advertised price, but man oh man they hold a TON of value for some areas and zones...
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I will post when I hear more...
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12-26-2011, 09:46 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin.C
I did not know that... Why is that??? All i see is extra gas charges....
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It all has to do with management of what is legal and what isn't.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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12-26-2011, 10:57 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 2,260
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Sounds like there is some pressure to decrease resident hunter access. Most of the proposals will do nothing to decrease harvest, other than increasing 4/5ths zones to full curl. I actually wouldn't mind that one, yes I know some rams never make full, but it wouldn't hurt to have a few of the oldtimers live, and I think it would definitely increase horn size in said zones.
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12-26-2011, 11:23 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocks
Sounds like there is some pressure to decrease resident hunter access. Most of the proposals will do nothing to decrease harvest, other than increasing 4/5ths zones to full curl. I actually wouldn't mind that one, yes I know some rams never make full, but it wouldn't hurt to have a few of the oldtimers live, and I think it would definitely increase horn size in said zones.
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By changing to full curl, some zones will never produce full curl sheep as the genetics just aren't there. So I don't think you would increase horn size one bit in these zones that may never produce a full curl. Now you'd be putting more pressure on the zones that would produce full curls.
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12-26-2011, 11:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 2,260
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Which zones will never produce a full curl?
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12-27-2011, 12:09 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: AB
Posts: 3,350
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I found 4 allocations in 445 for sale for 450k recently. No gear or tack.
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12-27-2011, 12:19 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Alberta
Posts: 2,260
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There was also 4 for sale at Cadomin for 500k, and of course McMahons is up for 1.2M with 8 sheep, some elk, deer, bear and a moose with a bunch of gear and horses.
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12-27-2011, 03:02 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12
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After reading this post if feel that the worst enemy to our sheep population is both access and the popularity of sheep hunting in the past couple of decades.
Talking to a lot of the old boys (before all of the roads such as the shell road down south and other forestry roads) there was way better hunting because of less pressure. It is inevitable that sheep hunting is more accessible now (for example drive down highway 40 and spot a legal ram). Something has to be changed. Plain and simple more sheep are being shot in alberta than ever. Because it is a "trophy animal" there is a lot of hype and bragging that surrounds it.
To me the biggest thing that has to change is the mentality that comes with sheep hunting. The best sheep hunters I know, are the people that genuinely love to sheep hunt, and have two or three sheep on their wall and will never shoot one again. For them they have accomplished to get a "trophy sheep" and just enjoy sheep hunting. They now just like always enjoy being out in the mountains and seeing sheep or helping a first time sheep hunter or kid trying to get his first sheep.
To me sheep hunting and (hunting in general) has become to big of a competition, and some people want to shoot a sheep to say they have done it or try to prove to other people that they are some great hunter and feel the need to be idolized. It should be a personal thing, and there is to much jealously. I idolize the real sheep hunters that love and respect sheep.
I do believe however that something should and will be done in some zones to protect our alberta sheep, but some zones have and continually produce healthily sheep populations. It will never again be like the good old days, but we should look at the future of sheep hunting in general. I thing the age solution could be a great idea to try and build a mature ram population and reward those that pass on a just legal ram. It should be treated like a trophy deer. Many people that want to shoot a mule deer for example will pass on a young deer in hopes it will grow up and become a mature trophy.
I also believe that the waiting period between sheep is a great idea. If some one is in need of meat you can get all sorts of tags in alberta to fill the freezer. Because I think it is a trophy animal I think that it should not matter if you got a sheep or not, but the quality of the hunt you are on. On some previous threads and posts about sheep hunting individuals have mentioned people with a many bunch of rams on the wall that reminded the of each hunt. I don't think that it should be dependant on the success of the hunt but the time spent in the mountains with great people.
We have to protect the sheep.
I know many albertans will disagree with and despise outfitters which is understandable, but i believe that targeting all of them and apos as a group is not the right move. I do believe that there should be no scams. As sad as it is our world revolves around money and our province needs the money brought in from non-residents to keep hunting going. With all of the groups trying to stop or slow down hunting these organizations will help keep hunting going for Albertans in the future.
I also have been on some guided hunts out of province and around the world just to experience different kind of hunts. I think that as albertans we should protect our sheep for our selves, but also share the opportunity with others.
I mostly read this forum and dont post too often. One thing I have noticed is how people get targeted and "ganged up on" if they disagree with others. I suspect some jealously in their thoughts.
This is just my opinion, you can agree or disagree, that is your opinion.
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12-27-2011, 05:31 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: AB
Posts: 3,350
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12-27-2011, 06:45 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,896
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mjs do you know how hard it is to kill a sheep. It sounds like you have never killed a Ram and are jealous of those who have figured out sheep hunting. If someone wants to kill more than a couple sheep that is there right. As for more sheep being killed nowadays that isn't true either as there are still roughly the same numbers being killed as in the past. Nobody has said that the sheep populations aren't health and i do believe that these are the good old days of sheep hunting right now, because everybody that hunts in this great province has the right to sheep hunt and try and kill a Ram. Putting it on a draw takes that right away and limits your chances. A draw won't get you bigger sheep, because it now puts more pressure on the hunter with the tag to kill a Ram, so you will kill the first legal Ram you see because you just don't know how long it will take to pull that tag next.
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