First signs of the RAMP program

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by chuck

Ummm, no he wasn't.

Dammit Chuck, do you know how long it took me to type my last post with all the pretty colors...and then you ruin the effect with 4 words..LOL

I need to learn to type faster...

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Please see above!



Considering the title of the thread...I think it's safe to assume that the poster thought, as many of us did, that RAMP was already underway but again, you are forgiven.

Hate to way into this one but,, yah after reading the original post a couple days ago I was sure the poster was talking about the RAMP program I am sure that was his intent anyways,, not sure but thats just the impression I got..


Sheep,, I don't know you can't win for loosen man,, you must have a big target on you or something because guys sure enjoy taking shots at you.. I think sometimes guys just cruise here and wait to take a shot at you.. Glad its you and not me..

I need to learn to type faster...

Or less...

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Morton

Fact
5) Yes Bubba, I think we all know who one of "the 7" was that voted for RAMP...
6) Some on this board sure seem to know alot about RAMP...even though they were not at any of the "public meetings". TRUE
7) Me thinks there are a few "wolves" on this site that are dressed in "Sheep's" clothing...TRUE

Thanks for the summaries here guys.

I dont know the "7" that voted for Ramp. Can anyone list them for me? Thanks.

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Or less...

I will give you a point for your last post...it made me laugh.

I'll make you a deal. I will stop posting as soon as you stop posting!!!

PS. I need to get out hunting...

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Morton

I will give you a point for your last post...it made me laugh.

I'll make you a deal. I will stop posting as soon as you stop posting!!!

PS. I need to get out hunting...

me too!!! see below

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Morton

I will give you a point for your last post...it made me laugh.

I'll make you a deal. I will stop posting as soon as you stop posting!!!

PS. I need to get out hunting...

No need to stop posting.....if you've got info, post it. Just not sure the nitpicking serves a lot of purpose. You are right, the OP was not hunting what he thought was RAMP land but he did see hunters hunting what he thought was RAMP land. Even you have to agree with that. To me, the important point is that some ranchers are taking matters into their own hands and operating as if RAMP were in place and some hunters are under the impression that RAMP is in place. I know I was under that impression until a few posters here contacted Grant and posted the info that it wasn't...again, more valuable info.

There's always going to be a peanut gallery element to this board (see above and below) but there's a lot of good info between the empty shells!

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No need to stop posting.....if you've got info, post it. Just not sure the nitpicking serves a lot of purpose. You are right, the OP was not hunting what he thought was RAMP land but he did see hunters hunting what he thought was RAMP land. Even you have to agree with that. To me, the important point is that some ranchers are taking matters into their own hands and operating as if RAMP were in place and some hunters are under the impression that RAMP is in place. I know I was under that impression until a few posters here contacted Grant and posted the info that it wasn't...again, more valuable info.

really??

[Big Daddy Morton]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

No need to stop posting.....if you've got info, post it. Just not sure the nitpicking serves a lot of purpose.

You make a couple of good points Sheep.

1). if we stop posting, who will support our doctors and pharmasists when none of us need to take blood pressure medicine when we stop worrying about RAMP???

2). The nitpicking is just plain fun and it seems as if neither of us have anything better to do at 10 at night during hunting season.

Sweet dreams everyone...

Maybe we can come at this from a different angle. Sheep let’s try from your percpective facts.

First Bradshaw gave us the story of negative RAMP, I posted... “I agree RAMP is BAD”.

Your friend Richard came on gave us the story of positive RAMP, I posted “I disagree RAMP is still BAD” confusion reigns while the debate as to why your buddy would post as he did. The source of frustration comes when it is perceived that he did it in support of RAMP whether that support is actual or perceived (I’m trying not to judge at this point just pointing out the appearance of the post). Further frustration grows when we learn of chuck’s now famous phone call.

Insueing posts get to what I feel is a valid admission by none other than you sheep. “What is the Big Picture” and “What are the Facts”, so I posted something about Clarity!

Now by chance I had the opportunity of seeing the cover of your latest AO Mag and picked it up and read it in the Mac’s store in Claresholm (did not purchase however; times are tough I’m on a budget ). I get upset because of your continuing claim that you are only after the facts yet I find some important errors in your piece to which I posted this morning. It might not seem important but they are.

To start with and again I’ll give you credit, I to feel this flawed “Dogs breakfast” has a real good chance of collapsing on itself (as some of us have been postulating here for quite some time) but we have seen that if nothing else Mortin is persistent and bull-headed so I keep running that out there. Reason for that is that if enough people see how this is coming about and funded I think they will disagree with the funding source and the reason, that adds to the pressure applied and will hopefully force him to back away from this plan.

Next the U of C connection is also important. Gates has been at this for a long time trying to get a paid hunting beach head in Alberta so again NOT UofA it is UofC. Perhaps a small over sight but pressure has to be placed on him or else his name will pop up again in the future, this way maybe he’ll just stay away for good. An interesting meeting I was at was an ACA get together in Coaldale earlier this year, maybe you should contact the higher ups there and ask them what they think of Gates. But then here is the rub, RAMP will be evaluated (my new word for *****S) by the U of C (fact). I can only imagine that it will have to be through Gates and or Knopff. Tell me I’m crazy but I can not see how this won’t get a passing grade once in there hands. That is not a conspiracy theory it is a valid concern based on facts.

Also in your article I noticed that you had another small flaw in the timeline and to be fair I’ll point it out because it does have merit for those that are for RAMP, in 2008 the AFGA was unanimously opposed however in 2009 there where from what I could gather 7 votes for RAMP, again more than likely just an oversight by you but it is a fact.

So if I have this right I have been posting since Jan. 2007 trying to help get information out there, as far as I’m aware I have never concealed any info (except some of the most disgusting pm’s I have ever seen from sources that will remain unmentioned here AGAIN to which penalties seemed to be paid) and I have been fully opposed to Paid Hunting from day one. Also if I have this right you are also opposed to this…”If we are going to beat this thing...it seems to me we should understand it.”

So your turn what have I got wrong so far, maybe this big picture can be painted in right now,

What do you think???

As for this paragraph I would like you to clarify exactly what you meant with regards to myself? I’m not trying to set you up but I would be more than happy to clarify any misconceptions that you might have about my motivations.

sheep

I have to wonder at what the agenda of some of the so called crusaders against RAMP really is as some seem to spend all their time deflecting attention from the real problem. It makes me very suspicious. Would you agree that RAMP itself is what we should focus on and not keeping inventing conspiracies that usually have no basis in fact?

That's why info is powerful and for some reason that I've yet to put my fingure on, some on here are afraid of that info being desseminated. I'd hate to start more conspiracies but if I did, it would seem to me that some are trying to protect their own interests by constantly taking the focus off the facts surrounding RAMP. But I won't go there.


The reason I bring this up is it is not the first time I’ve been accused of this. Some in a position they thought was superior to my own decided that the reason I opposed this was that I wanted to protect my own hunting area and secret honey holes. So go ahead and clarify that quote and I’ll answer your concerns.

To the other poster who thought perhaps I might be a guide I assure you I’m not I'm a farmer and a hunter.

Sounds to me like you posted some good info.

I stand corrected on the "unanimous" comment about the vote in 2009. After reading this thread, apparently there were seven delagates that voted in favour? As for your other comments, the length of my columns are dictated by the editor and there is only room for so much info. Not so much a flaw but a matter of circumstances.

Your comments about the comments cards are interesting but what I find equally interesting is the wording of the questions. The only people that fill them out are people that have gained access to RAMP land so it's quite likely they had a good day and the comments will be favourable. To me, the questions are designed to ensure a successful outcome.

The reason I bring this up is it is not the first time I’ve been accused of this. Some in a position they thought was superior to my own decided that the reason I opposed this was that I wanted to protect my own hunting area and secret honey holes. So go ahead and clarify that quote and I’ll answer your concerns.

I accused you of nothing.

Just as stated previously by me after the meeting in Lethbridge.


I asked how and who was going to deal with the overall *****sment of the program and looks like it will still be going to the U of C to be graded. A concern I have is that the access cards will have a questionnaire on them that will allow users to fill in questions on satisfaction of their outing on a RAMP property. Short of some freak event I can’t see how it would be considered anything but a positive experience based on the questions asked. The fundamental question of RAMP and O/S type programs has only one outlet on the questionnaire that being the Question…

Do you have any concerns, issues, or comments for Fish and Wildlife or the Landowner?



No you didn't accuse me of anything I was accused by a personal affiliation. You stated... "I have to wonder at what the agenda of some of the so called crusaders against RAMP really is as some seem to spend all their time deflecting attention from the real problem.

some on here are afraid of that info being desseminated. I'd hate to start more conspiracies but if I did, it would seem to me that some are trying to protect their own interests by constantly taking the focus off the facts surrounding RAMP. But I won't go there."

If I don't get passed this comment (as I could be considered one of the crusaders) then you'll be able to keep heading to this cover up of facts so please clarify you comment and I'll address your concerns so we can move on to oppose this thing with facts.

If I don't get passed this comment (as I could be considered one of the crusaders) then you'll be able to keep heading to this cover up of facts so please clarify you comment and I'll address your concerns so we can move on to oppose this thing with facts.

You might also not be considered one of the "some".

Really, I have no interest in making this personal with you. Seems to me you shared some good info above. I'm content to leave it at that.

I have to apologize but it does matter Sheep. There is a continous ongoing **** storm that arises everytime RAMP and paid hunting comes up between you, 209, Jamie and some of your faithful readers and those of us that have affiliations with anything opposed to what came out of the working group. Every time it comes up you start firing out the deflection card and ”I’d like to stick to facts and not conspiracies and get on with opposing it” yet it always comes at the expense of the debate. This just infuriates these so called crusaders and you try and wriggle your way out of saying what’s on your mind like you have done here.

I recognize that there is a lot of passion with this topic and those opposed sometimes go over the top so lets try and tone it down but truly lets move forward.

If you are truly wanting an open debate where the facts get out then let’s quit this now clear the air and move forward. Otherwise what will continue to happen is you and yours will nit pick what we say and we’ll have to come in trying to defend and blaze away to contradict.

So why don't you paint the big picture for me right now maybe you'll get some more new facts that you missed from before.

I recognize that there is a lot of passion with this topic and those opposed sometimes go over the top so lets try and tone it down but truly lets move forward.

Sounds good to me.

So how about the rest of it.

You also have that talent of picking out some quote to verify your position but what about the rest of it.

Anything??

Originally Posted by MAV

So how about the rest of it.

You also have that talent of picking out some quote to verify your position but what about the rest of it.

Anything??

Nope, that's it! If you think there are more facts I'm missing, please share them. I've learned a few things from this thread and I'm sure there is more to be learned by all.

Well thanks any way...

You must be tired so think about the big picture and get back to us when you get a chance. We'll be waiting with any ideas you have of taking all these facts and using them to get rid of Paid Hunting in Alberta.

Have a nice night.

The big picture is that RAMP is not good for Alberta hunters and that hunters need to quit feeding on themselves and work collectively to fight it. Thankfully, this is being done by groups like the AFGA but each individual voice is important too. Call/write your MLA, call/write Morton, call/write Stelmach, call/write the opposition and keep doing it. Using the facts, point out what's wrong and offer some realistic solutions. I'm sure you've done all this so it will likely seem elementary to you but for some it will be a big step to send that first letter. I don't have the magic pill here and I'm sure lots of others have good ideas too but it darned sure isn't what most of this thread is about! And it darned sure isn't through some of the bullying tactics undertaken by some of the anti RAMP crusaders. And it darned sure isn't through a mob mentality that we will find our way out of this.

Have a nice night.

You too.

[Jamie]

Mav..
For me, it's more about how this little group presents it's self. And the NITPICKING silly arguments they try and make.
And to think you guys try and say you speak for the "Average" hunter. I would like to think the "Average" hunter has more common sense and decency than some of those that jump on the ANTI RAMP bandwagon.

I don't know if I am for Ramp or against it. I do know I hated the tag part of O/S. But at this point I am willing to listen, watch and learn when it comes to RAMP.

The way some members of ARHJ argues it's points reminds me of that PIZZANT guy in canmore.
Sorry, sometimes in order to listen to the argument, you have to have a measure of respect for those involved. And some members of ARHJ haven't done a bunch to impress me or many others I have spoke with.

But all that is beside the fact.
Ramp is in play. I will sit back and watch, I might even take advantage of it this year. THEN I will make up my mind about how I feel. I am not afraid of change, I am not afraid of progress. I am willing to listen.

Jamie

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by MAV

You are right, there was 7 out of 200 in Edmonton that voted for it so we only speak for 97 out of 100, I guess there are fringe elements out there!!!

.

Bubba.. Here is the exact quote

Jamie

[Arn?Narn.]

'The enemy, of my enemy, is my friend"

How do the RAMP threads get so personal and off topic, when most people on the threads claim to be on the same side...

See here we go again with what you just wrote:

But all that is beside the fact.
Ramp is in play. I will sit back and watch

I should then write:

Of course you will.

So then we go on with another long thread of nothing.

So in the nature of my recent revelations I'll take a different tact.

Jamie, you seem to think that this change may have some merit.

Could you elaborate those points so we can debate them and so I can debate you to try and convince otherwise.

When they shout "Long live progress,"
always ask, "Progress of what?" Stanislaw J Lec

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

'The enemy, of my enemy, is my friend"

How do the RAMP threads get so personal and off topic, when most people on the threads claim to be on the same side...

Apparently it is personal.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by MAV

See here we go again with what you just wrote:

But all that is beside the fact.
Ramp is in play. I will sit back and watch

I should then write:

Of course you will.

So then we go on with another long thread of nothing.

So in the nature of my recent revelations I'll take a different tact.

Jamie, you seem to think that this change may have some merit.

Could you elaborate those points so we can debate them and so I can debate you to try and convince otherwise.

Mav.. Sorry Bud. You cant convince m, I haven't made up my mind. The thought line of ARHJ and it's followers is to be negative and show no flexibility on any points the other side may have. You can throw around all the bad thoughts and ideas you want. But at present thats all you have. In essence you bring nothing to the table but fear mongering

The gov has stepped up and and put a initiative in place. I will look at those results then may make up my mind.

The nice thing about the 'Anti" hardliner stance is that IF it fails you can stand up and say "I TOLD YOU SO"
If it works, you will quickly be forgotten.

I don't get the comment about me sitting back and watching. Why would you say something like that??

Jamie

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by MAV

Apparently it is personal.

The program isn't personal. The methods used to argue it are. Thats actually one of the kickers that makes me NOT want to listen to the Anti side and listen a bit more to the Gov side.

Same goes for Environmentalist, Anti abortion, PETA, PIZZANT, and the list goes on.

Jamie

[QUOTE=sheephunter;393499]The big picture is that RAMP is not good for Alberta hunters and that hunters need to quit feeding on themselves and work collectively to fight it. Thankfully, this is being done by groups like the AFGA but each individual voice is important too. Call/write your MLA, call/write Morton, call/write Stelmach, call/write the opposition and keep doing it. Using the facts, point out what's wrong and offer some realistic solutions. I'm sure you've done all this so it will likely seem elementary to you but for some it will be a big step to send that first letter. I don't have the magic pill here and I'm sure lots of others have good ideas too but it darned sure isn't what most of this thread is about! And it darned sure isn't through some of the bullying tactics undertaken by some of the anti RAMP crusaders. And it darned sure isn't through a mob mentality that we will find our way out of this.

Thank you very much for that honest forthright reply hopefully this is a good place.

I also know that a lot of the frustration is derived from a long standing issue with those at the working group (one of my personal main issues). That said I do beleive that a lot has transpired with those that were on the working group and you are right AFGA is the place to put our faith. I hope many on AFGA are reading this far down the thread. So lets not get defensive on past perceptions and lets try and remeber there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.

So MLA, Morton (SRD), Stelmach and opposition (what there is of it)

Jamie, don't you think there's a real danger that if the pilot is deemed a success that other landowners province wide will also want to enjoy the benefits of payment for access? Do you honestly think that it is financially feasible to take the program province wide? My worry, and I think it's legitimate is that landowners province wide will also want compensation, the government will say they can't afford it leaving two options....hunter paid access or landowners shutting hunters out in protest.

I have no doubt that the pilot will be deemed a success. I have no doubt that more people will find access to private property but I also have no doubt that we can't afford this province wide without hunters shelling out a ton of cash, either directly or indirectly. I'm worried about what this holds for the future.

[Jamie]

Sheep.
Sure I see some downfalls, but at the same time some of this group of YAHOOS has so turned me off of the Anti side I am having a tough time even listening to them. best thing they could EVER do was to log off and never log in again.

I do see some points that you have mentioned. But I also see another point of the landowners.

Your point of the province not being able to pay for all of this (province wide) rings true. AND if it is a success, perhaps you will see a total failure of the program.

How do States like Montana pay for this type of program? Are there resident hunter fees right through the roof?

Already i find it expensive (But OH SO WORTH IT) to buy tags here.

Jamie